Is there a reason you're playing Deathrite Shaman and Odious Trow? I think you should be playing two copies of Deathrite Shaman if you're comfortable playing the Trow as a dedicated Pact target with limited utility. I've never in my life blocked with a Trow and regenerated it, so I doubt that's why he's still got a place in your deck.
I really don't like Empty the Warrens in a deck playing Summoner's Pact, but it might be necessary/not as bad as I think it is.
I'd play Slithermuse over Meditate, if the choice is between those two. Blue mana doesn't come easily in this deck, so if I'm going to put extra resources into casting a blue spell, I would want it to be better than my regular D4s.
I always liked the splitted cards in my decks. You are right, activating shaman is much more better than tow. Anyway it is unprobable to. Activate one or other during a game.Originally Posted by Namida
Andar regarding to the blue spell i agree with you.
Sorry for double posting...i had a question..let's see if you can help me: How many of you crack led in response to D4 spell having in hand one or more of the following cards:
Pact
IT
Culling the weak
?
THX!!!
Cracking LED in response to a D4 has always been hit or miss for me, but I don't know what the part about having stuff in hand matters, you're about to discard it anyways...
So I think I've broken the format, I'm playing Green Sun's Zenith in Storm ...
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Meek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
I'm not even sure Summoner's Pact is worth running in addition to Green Sun's Zenith but this is the most hilarious version of Storm I have ever been able to play seriously. You start off by playing that Veteran Explorer Green Sun's Zenith control deck in order to establish your manabase, and just when they think you're going to play a Pernicious Deed ... you turn their lights the fuck out. I was nearly pissing myself in laughter on MTGs the whole day.
I think the Chrome Mox may be better off as a second Xantid Swarm, but usually people are so confused by the deck it doesn't matter much.
Do you have any streams? I'd very much like to see this in action.
Also, it's Culling the Weak, not meek...
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Doesn't as nasuem just kill you in this deck? You have, 1 remaining as nas 1 tendrils 1 empty 1 elvish spirit guide, and 8 two mana spells. This looks like you just have really high odds of dying when you cast it.
All Storm decks have 8 two mana spells in them, 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Cabal Ritual or 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Burning Wish along with 4 Gitaxian Probe as either 2 points of damage before Ad Nauseam, 3 points of damage after Ad Nauseam or 1 point of damage and a dead card after Ad Nauseam and ANT often has 2 Grim Tutor or 2 Burning Wish in addition to that, so that's a completely irrelevant observation. Compared to the other Storm decks I have 1 more Ad Nauseam and a single Elvish Spirit Guide that has 4 Summoner's Pact to remove it from the deck before you Ad Nauseam. Yousimply need threat density, if you find yourself dying to your own Ad Nauseams then I guess -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Grim Tutor or Deathwish could work - but open handing Ad Nauseam in a deck that's designed to have 5 mana on turn 2 via Bayou -> Green Sun's Zenith -> Dryad Arbor and then Culling the Weak on the following turn is just absolutely worth having 2 Ad Nauseam in your deck.
If you guys want to try it out, I think you can cut Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy in order to play 3 more Xantid Swarms and Brainstorm with minor changes to the manabase for the blue card and just rely on Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact, fetchlands and Xantid Swarms as your fuel for the deck. Screw their Swords to Plowshares, Xantid Swarm still trumps Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and Spell Snare, requires the opponent to Force of Will it and keeps Swords to Plowshares in their deck over any other alternatives. It's a minor annoyance, but considering the synergy the card has with your tutors and accerlation it's an easy 4x if you want it to be.
I'll post some youtube videos once I've got the list settled, I'm really torn on a couple of the card choices for "Zenith Storm" like whether or not I want to splash for blue and Brainstorm and cut the Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy package or keep basics in the deck and cut the Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy package for Gitaxian Probe or Sensei's Divining Top. SBing in the deck is really tricky, I tend to go -3 Veteran Explorer for +3 Xantid Swarm vs aggro-control and just rely on all of my tutoring power for the single Veteran Explorer and vs discard I'm doing pretty well by SBing out Xantid Swarm and 3 Veteran Explorer for 4 Sensei's Divining Top to just dig, dig, dig. I've also tried some bizzare shit, like playing a MD Living Wish to have a tutor for Xantid Swarm, Veteran Explorer and Phyrexian Tower and you can even sort of use it as business with Slithermuse.
I've really got to screen shot some of my opponent's reactions tho' when they figure out I'm not playing Nic Fit by me raping them in their dirty mouths with my Tendrils. The rogue value of this deck is amazing because it actually doesn't suck.
I swear it's the most fun I've had in Legacy in awhile.
I was just curious i've played T.E.S. and while we have 8 cmc 2 spells after an ad nas we have 0 five cost and 1 four cost so that is a noticeable difference as well as ad nas in A.N.T is a back up plan. If you say they don't kill you i'll believe you. It'll be intresting to see the videos when they go up
Came up with another possible innovation for the deck list, added a Dosan the Falling Leaf and now the deck can use either Summoner's Pact or Green Sun's Zenith as, albeit very expensive, disruption cards on the turn you're trying to go off instead of on the following turn.
So far the MD is performing really well and I think it's a strict improvement over Entomb because that card just sucked vs Deathrite Shaman. The deck is about as fast as ANT on average tho' it's a bit inconsistent without the 12 to 16 cantrips. I think taking a long hard look at Sensei's Divining Top is in order.
How are the Diabolic Intents in this deck? I'm asking because they are really hard to find and I'm wondering if there's any possible replacement for them.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
Awesome and absolutely necessary.
I thought about GSZ but dropped the idea because Entomb was more flexible but I'd encourage you to try it if you like how it plays.
I'd experiment with cutting Explorers if you are going heavy on GSZ, cutting GSZ/Pacts and working out splits.. and it looks like you'll be going off turn 3/4/5 more often than with the Entomb list's at turn 2/3/4. I think playing a slower storm variant has its advantages; it could well be the answer to a control metagame and would do well if that metagame counterbalances the control decks with Nic fit-and/or GB mid-rangey players. This would be especially the case once you hit post-board for all sorts of transformations. If I were you though, I'd find a way to abuse GSZ with LED or else you haven't completely broken the card into the deck. Being able to play 1G for explorer means you are color fixing and you get long term resources if you are slow rolling a control deck (GREAT in RUG heavy metas).. but against a deck playing basics, you lose a lot of power in not playing Entomb because Entomb is also quite flexible at Instant for B.. and Entomb works with LED in a lot of situations. Entomb can also become a sacrifice outlet and protection when you find Therapy to crack an Explorer for a power play on turn 1 or 2. Its worth noting that Entomb is a generic creature as Narcomoeba for a single black while GSZ can find Arbor for a single green.. but Narco takes up another slot so perhaps GSZ probably wins that niche. I still think the protection/sac play is one of the main reasons you play Entomb.. then again.. its also fantastic at finding Tendrils when you are holding PIF or finding PIF when you are holding Tendrils. GSZ has the disadvantage of not being business; its totally a set up piece. Entomb, though, functions as protection/creature/business/acceleration.. depending on how it works within your hand. Entomb also has the advantage of being an instant, meaning that instant speed Narco + Culling + B + AdN can randomly win games when you happen to be holding an AdN. In particular, I like the Entomb --> AdN + Pact --> Ewit line of play at 8 mana. It happens now and again, and no storm line of play feels better than reanimating your storm engine with spare, (and generally) non-business cards like Pact and Entomb.
Granted, GSZ can convert the deck into something nasty if you were to play a transformational sideboard. Tomb of Urami looks rather weak as a man plan when you look at cards like the green titan + GSZ; much better man plan. Same goes for the black titan since you still have shit tons of black mana. This is the reason I'd be sold on GSZ, is because it will give you an incredibly game plan against control decks post-board.
Anyone interested in working on the GSZ list I would recommend trying to break it with LED. Also, I talk extensively about the Entomb list on the previous page if anyone is interested.. and here is a Doomsday list that functions on a similar core structure, trying to abuse VE, Culling, LED, Drit, Therapy, Pact in particular. This list plays well, and its worth noting to any heathens that there were MULTIPLE SPANISH INQUISITIONS.. like historically speaking, and we are using a lot of the same cards anyway, and its still storm combo.. so we have a new direction, and we have a bunch of speedy old lists. Basically, let the naysayers come willingly. The pyre is ready!
If we start developing these more, I'll update the primer with new lists, history, core-structure, results (would be nice) etc. There are a bunch of players on MTGS who have switched from the old-SI lists to these VANT (VASI), or VED (VDSI). Not sure what to do about these acronyms but we can figure it out. Ultimately, I think that these decks ought to be discussed here since SI players are ultimately switching from old lists to these lists. I've gotten a shit ton of private messages on MTGS and The Source about these builds as well so I have a feeling that a lot of players have already picked them up and they have their own builds because they know that fundamentally, the core deck structure of VE, Culling, Therapy, Pact, Drit, LED, IT, is incredibly powerful.
- VE Doomsday -
Pact-package - 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Dogs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
Acceleration - 13
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
Land - 13
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
Cantrip/Protection - 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gitaxian Probe
Business - 9
1 Burning Wish
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
61 cards
This thread has more info about VED-SI
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...day#post773922
Wolfbriar Elemental in particular is a lot of fun with Pact, turning it into business and allowing for some explosive turn 2 plays when you aren't really supposed to have business in hand.
Its worth noting that my time with VASI evolved into a Doomsday list.. but I was going to school so I didn't really have enough time to develop it fully. Initially, I was thinking I should develop it privately because the list was so good, but I decided to bring it to the community hoping it would blossum into something sick.. but I guess other people didn't put enough time into it either because it actually is difficult to play. It requires a bit of practice to properly judge how to play VASI, specifically when you have so many moving parts. Then again, it got easier to play after a while because cards like Pact and Entomb are so flexible.. Doomsday lists were even more fun to play because they were more difficult puzzles and it was fun playing Brainstorm and Top with the VESI core.
EDIT:
I would love to see this as well, and totally will do this once I find out where I"m going to be living in the next few weeks, and if there is a store in my vicinity. I plan on converting to VASI, the Entomb list quite soon and putting up some local results as I prepare for a 50+ event.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Entomb is an ok plan but I didn't like the excessive amount of dead cards in the deck and the interaction with Deathrite Shaman, what sold me on Green Sun's Zenith is that it was acceleration and disruption all in one where entomb was business and disruption all in one, the sacrifice cards are more abundant than the cards to be sacrificed so it made a lot of sense to me to just build on Veteran Explorer after Veteran Explorer for a tremendous manabase and then just kill with Ad Nauseam.
I'd love to be able to find a threat to go along with Green Sun's Zenith and Summoner's Pact but I just haven't found anything convincing.
Just Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact and Xantid Swarm fueling Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent looks viable, all the cheats for Dryad Arbor are really good to build around.
Thats my point.. Entomb is not only functionable within your hand, its makes dead hands work. Its the piece that completes most hands and allows you to keep 7 cards almost all the time. For example, if you keep 7 cards with 2 disruption spells and a Pact.. all you need to draw is business. But if you also have a Pact and you draw Entomb, and its like turn 3.. you can Pact for Ewit and Entomb for AdN. Then having 8 mana on turn 3 is that much more relevant as you set up with multiple Therapies. Another example would be when you have Pact and Entomb and Culling. Pacting for Young Wolf allows you much more flexibility in that you get BBBB and a protection spell in the mix, because they rarely counter Pact, and if they do, you can adjust with Entomb for Narco and then Culling anyway. GSZ doesn't allow for this flexibility. Thats what I mean by Entomb being an accelerant. Its more flexible than GSZ because its a sac outlet. The deck never has enough sac outlets because it doesn't matter how many are in the deck; it matters how many you have in your hand, and how many you want. If your opponent nails all your creatures with STPs and Snapcasters, your Entomb becomes more important than a GSZ for Xantid Swarm because it can find business like PIF. I'd say the main strength of GSZ is in the post-board and I'd actually say if you play with it enough at your locals, you'll probably wind up moving it to the sideboard because its too slow in the maindeck, and its not flexible like Entomb is. Brainstorm is also a good replacement for Entomb/GSZ. I was playing Brainstorm before Entomb.. and then Entomb made the deck faster and I didn't have to splash a color.. though I'd love to cut some cards to Brainstorm and Entomb in the same list.. that would be dirty.
Summoner's Pact is awesome with Wolfbriar Elemental because it allows Pact + LED to be psuedo-EtW in green.. on turn 2 or if you get an Explorer early with a tight opening hand. As I said before, I gave up on GSZ overbecause I couldn't turn it into business, and it was 1G for 2 lands so it was only set up instead of acceleration. I want to reiterate that Entomb is simply functionable within the hand.. but as protection, business, and acceleration. Its acceleration as well because it finds a sac-outlet; GSZ finds a creature. Also, I don't like being dependent on DI's as my only sac outlet, because then STP or a discard spell is that much more distruptive. If you keep more 7 card hands and just play them out you'll notice that 7 card hands produce a turn 3/4. I recall playing 20 hands as results posted somewhere playing 7 card hands, keeping everything.. and my avg. turn kill was like 3.5 or something (I was only playing 1 AdN). It has an incredible 7 card hand for a combo deck, and I believe that was because of Entomb. Also Entomb is awesome as a back up plan if you hold onto it and DI for AdN. If they counter the DI or AdN, then you still have Entomb as business. GSZ does not produce these lines of play where against heavy countermagic suites you will want this option.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
1) You are crazy :)
2) You are a genius
3) I love you :) (in a platonic way, of course)
I tested your list yesterday night and made the following changes:
-1 AdN
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Summoner's Pact
-1 GSZ
-1 Empty the Warrens
+3 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Duress
+1 Past in Flames
I have to say the the deck is a blast, I didn't take record of the actual statistics but it seemed pretty consistent at comboing off turn 3 and very, very resilient to AdN fizzles
You can cut the 2nd Ad Nauseam but you can't cut the Empty the Warrens, that card wins so many games with Cabal Therapy vs Tempo regardless of the disynergy with Summoner's Pact that I think you have to play with it.
Duress is kind of pointless, you have 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Green Sun's Zenith and 1 Xantid Swarm already; the cards I've wanted to cut the most are the second Ad Nauseam, the Chrome Mox and the Deathrite Shaman just because I always seem to be able to cast a Veteran Explorer anyway.
I have Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains in the SB along with 3 more Xantid Swarms, I think it's better to MD Empty the Warrens than Past in Flames because if it gets them to SB in Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm then you get to make the swap to Past in Flames and suddenly they're left holding dead cards where MD Past in Flames doesn't really affect their SBing plans at all.
Sensei's Top is definitely amazing tho', we have so many shuffle effects in the deck to get value from it and 3 seems like the right number.
@Vacrix
Entomb sounds amazing until you play against Deathrite Shaman, then the card just falls apart in my experience. Let them STP all of my Dryad Arbors and Veteran Explorers, they'll pay for it with Xantid Swarm. Maybe you can play Entomb MD and then SB into Green Sun's Zenith vs Deathrite Shaman, but right now I'd just rather play the best MD vs Deathrite Shaman because it's a pretty ubiquitous part of the format - ignoring Deathrite Shaman feels about as disastrous for a combo deck as ignoring Force of Will.
@Raystar
Right now I'm just trying to get the number of Veteran Explorers and Sensei's Divining Tops right, 3 Top seems correct because like Chrome Mox you really don't want to open with more than 1.
Top and GSZ make sense together, especially since GSZ's recur and that makes for quite a few shuffle effects. I see what you mean about Entomb vs. Deathrite but Entomb is fantastic against everything else, and there have been a surge in UWR Tempo builds that beat BUG Tempo builds into the ground. Against the format, GSZ is probably better, but Entomb is going to be a solid choice in some metagames. For example, metagames heavy in RUG/UWR and Stoneblade/Miracles, Entomb looks pretty solid. In BUG/RUG metagames, I'd say GSZ/Top builds look incredible.. although I'd almost want like Spiritmonger or something huge you can look for with GSZ just incase you get into some shit with RUG and they race you early, and then you can't go for AdN. I've run into this situation before in testing with AdN, and EtW is a godsend pre-board. Then again, GSZ really does expand your options. I'd say exploiting it potentially with some kind of fat-dude, or at least LED will break open the GSZ build completely.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
If you don't see as many Deathrite Shamans as I do then play Entomb and SB Green Sun's Zenith, but either way you should be playing Green Sun's Zenith in your 75 because it gives your deck so much redundancy. I was surprised I could SB in destroy Artifact/Enchantment creatures and get around Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance completely for 1 card, not being able to tutor for business, and to be honest Entomb can't tutor for business without Summoner's Pact, seems to be less and less of a problem.
The deck feels faster than ANT because it durdles less, does anyone else find that to be the case?
Yes the unoptimized list is about turn 3 kill pretty consistently, and there are a whole bunch of excellent turn 2's. It sets up better than either deck thanks to cards like Explorer and Therapy. Therapy is stronger in this list than it is in either ANT or TES because you can flashback it. Also, the deck has an excellent 7 card hand, though I'd say as you get closer to 5 cards it gets weaker due to a lack of cantrips. SDT seems to be a good answer to that question; I enjoyed playing with 4 Brainstorm 4 Top in the DD version. Also, this deck rips RUG a new one since we can pretend to be Nic fit for far longer than storm should be able to, especially with your list with GSZ/Top. In general, all the extra mana and flashbackable protection means the Tempo matchup is particularly solid. I'd say against slower control decks like Stoneblade/Miracles that have stronger countermagic suites, we have the option to slow play. Veteran Explorer is a perpetual ritual against control since we get to hold onto the lands, and it can't countered by Spell Pierce and ESG/Pact is a nice option as a surprise anti-Daze line of play. Also, the fact that we fetch basics makes us even better against Tempo.
I would like to say that Entomb can be business without Pact. Entomb can find PIF, meaning its potentially a business spell at 6 mana. I like having that option in addition to it potentially being protection, accel, etc. I know its weak to Deathrite. Its incredibly fun to goldfish, however, and its nice getting a PIF in the yard EOT as setup for the following turn, or as a fail safe. Also, I liked the idea of finding Darkblast with Entomb as an anti-bear option that is rather compact in the post-board. Same goes for a Taiga + Ancient Grudge. GSZ does the same thing, but GSZ isn't too good if they land an early Gaddock Teeg. Entomb is also slightly better under Thalia since its a mana cheaper.
Post-board I found myself going for Pernicious Deed into PIF/Tendrils against the slower decks simply because they board in a shit ton of hate, and sometimes the compact hate strategies just don't cut it. I think that GSZ lists might be even better at this strategy.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote