The increase of Planeswalkers

[Aggro_zombies]

It looks like that was Rico's point: the most common answer to a Planeswalker is to attack, and that's a response which itself isn't very good, given how many answers the Planeswalker player has. In Jace2's case, Jace2 is the answer, or at least a big part of it.

I understand that. I pointed it out because I thought the point of this thread was to find better answers to opposing planeswalkers than simply attacking.

I mean, it's kind of absurd to expect someone to pay 4+ mana on a spell in Legacy and not be able to protect that investment. Four mana is just on the borderline between "expensive" and "costs infinite" in Legacy.

[scrumdogg]

If Planeswalker specific answers are allowable then REB/Pyroblast for Jace 1 or 2, BEB/Hydroblast for Redjani, Anarchy for Elspeth, Ajani, Redjani (and Moat & Humility & critters & Oblivion Rings & KotR & Rhox War Monk & Qasali Pridmage & cats etc etc) are all possibilities. Not being able to deal with all of the Planeswalkers doesn't disqualify them from being bad SB options, but does mean that they can't be relied upon. Bounce is also a decent short term option, especially since you are already in blue & can hopefully sequence it to where you can now counter the re-cast Planeswalker.

[Rico Suave]

No, my point was more along the lines that if you can manage to eliminate your opponent's attack step and proceed to safely tap out and protect 4+ mana threats...

You've already won most of your matches.

[dahcmai]

If I cast Moat, I have a counter or you just tapped out for something you thought was worth it. Same thing as Jace isn't it? Planeswalkers are like that, fragile for the most part. If you're that worried about them you play some burn. It's like being worried about that Moat. you play Disenchant effects if you care that much. Burn is the planeswalker answer. I plan to play a Psionic Blast in my board to Cunning Wish for just for planeswalkers. If you can't figure out that you need to start thinking about them, you have more of a problem than you think.

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

[DragoFireheart]

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

That's like betting if the sun is going to rise tommorow.

[practical joke]

Funny, because I think there are a few decks I see able to win GP columbus without pw's:

Bant Survival ( doesn't really uses pw's, but it could)
New horizons ( I've seen some with 2x jace 2.0, but I still prefer to play without)
T.E.S. ( storm is still very viable, I think some will be very mistaken in ignoring the potential)

I did found that zoo list with elspeth quite interesting tbh, gives some additional OOMPH to the deck when it get's stuck watching a moat or bigger bombs than they posses. Also that skarrg intrigued me. Goyfs that win the 1-1, fat knights with trample, not a bad addition tbh.

I don't see thopter control get into T8, it's just to inconsistent to be able to win THAT many matches.
The other decks I think that can definately make it to T8 in an expected meta.

Aggro-loam ( I don't think it's a real active deck in the states, while it's impressively strong against aggro)
Goblins ( mono-red)
Zoo
Bant-aggro

There might sneak a merfolk in there, but against a meta that'll be more aggressive I don't think it'll survive really well.
I don't expect reanimate in there since I believe that most ppl are creating the wrong lists and you can't lucksack yourself for 15+ rounds that way. ( except muller, his luck never ended)
Tempo ***** itself has to many tought match-ups now combo isn't really there.
Belcher won't make it since 1. it's random 2. force is still around.
I expect to see Asian counterbalance back again. Firespout will be a great card to be played again.

Planeswalkers are great, but I only expect half of the T8 to have planeswalkers at max.

[Grollub]

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

I'm on! Just wait and see, some dork will play Belcher with perfect draws all day....

[from Cairo]

If I cast Moat, I have a counter or you just tapped out for something you thought was worth it. Same thing as Jace isn't it? Planeswalkers are like that, fragile for the most part. If you're that worried about them you play some burn. It's like being worried about that Moat. you play Disenchant effects if you care that much. Burn is the planeswalker answer. I plan to play a Psionic Blast in my board to Cunning Wish for just for planeswalkers. If you can't figure out that you need to start thinking about them, you have more of a problem than you think.

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

Elspeth and Jace TMS both ramp out of Bolt/Psionic Blast range before priority is passed, I don't see burn as being that reliable of an out to them.

I do agree with you that the top GP decks will have Planeswalkers in them though.

[iostream]

I think it's at least conceivable that Lands could win the GP, and it doesn't play walkers at all. Furthermore, as with every threat Lands ever faces, it doesn't need to eliminate Jace, just have a way to stall long enough to set up stack or slaver lock, e.g. barbarian ring.

[obituary 95]

Mangara of Corondor takes out plainswalkers

[Pastorofmuppets]

Mangara of Corondor takes out plainswalkers

Yes, he does. And I really have trouble dealing with Aysen Highway.dec. The fact that he handles Planeswalkers is just gravy.
Vindicate is good, or so I hear.

[frenchy-man]

Gaddock Teeg is a strong card to prevent PW to reach the ground. And I won't tell you what cards it also shut down in legacy...

[Raptor]

Gaddock Teeg is a strong card to prevent PW to reach the ground. And I won't tell you what cards it also shut down in legacy...

Right, Plague wind does so much card advantage. It should see more play with the rise of aggro. It'll like in the Hulk era. Prepare for it or play it !

[frenchy-man]

I guess that you are trying to be funny... Nice try, but try to be interesting for next time ;)

[ramanujan]

I will bet anyone that the winning deck of GP Columbus has at least one planeswalker in it or some Lightning Bolts. Want to bet on that?

With all due respect you were wrong on this one. Check PMs

[dahcmai]

Heh, I noticed that PM when I got back. I wasn't far off though considering the 2nd place. I don't think anyone expected Merfolk to get that far though.

[Finn]

With regards to plansewalkers in general, they are all designed to be bombs. Some are legitimate bombs and others are just expensive. It stands to reason that blue, being the heart of control forever would begin to turn to planeswalkers for finishers in the same way they used to turn to stuff like Rainbow Efreet and Morphling - they are hard for the opponent to handle.

What we are not seeing yet are the cheapie planeswalkers. Compared to any other permanent type there really are very few of these. I figure it is only a matter of time before wotc decides to design a planeswalker block with the possibility of these things being the majority of the spells in a deck. There would have to be 1cc and 2cc planeswalkers to smooth out the mana curve and provide a much smaller effect. To make the block work, there would have to be many more ways to deal with planeswalkers to accompany all the new ones we see in play. I estimate that when that day comes, cards like Vindicate will start to creep back in Legacy decks as the planeswalkers make their way into our environment in a much more pronounced fashion. You have to figure that there is not a single card yet that targets only plansewalkers. This is the way grave yards have become slowly over the years.

[SilverGreen]

With regards to plansewalkers in general, they are all designed to be bombs. Some are legitimate bombs and others are just expensive. It stands to reason that blue, being the heart of control forever would begin to turn to planeswalkers for finishers in the same way they used to turn to stuff like Rainbow Efreet and Morphling - they are hard for the opponent to handle.

What we are not seeing yet are the cheapie planeswalkers. Compared to any other permanent type there really are very few of these. I figure it is only a matter of time before wotc decides to design a planeswalker block with the possibility of these things being the majority of the spells in a deck. There would have to be 1cc and 2cc planeswalkers to smooth out the mana curve and provide a much smaller effect. To make the block work, there would have to be many more ways to deal with planeswalkers to accompany all the new ones we see in play. I estimate that when that day comes, cards like Vindicate will start to creep back in Legacy decks as the planeswalkers make their way into our environment in a much more pronounced fashion. You have to figure that there is not a single card yet that targets only plansewalkers. This is the way grave yards have become slowly over the years.

Please. Don't. DON'T.

[DragoFireheart]

I figure it is only a matter of time before wotc decides to design a planeswalker block with the possibility of these things being the majority of the spells in a deck. There would have to be 1cc and 2cc planeswalkers to smooth out the mana curve and provide a much smaller effect.

No, WOTC won't do this. Not only does it not fit the lore, it doesn't fit planeswalker design very well.

[dahcmai]

I wouldn't mind a U costed planeswalker that did something like this.

+1 Look at opoonent's hand.
+1 Look at the top card of either deck
-6 Draw a card

some random number of starting loyalty counters.


I wouldn't call that broken, but very handy.


Ok, I admit I would love something like that printed. I was screaming for a Glasses of Urza effect all day.