The Problem with Legacy Players

[mujadaddy]

I'm going to watch a 4-minute video on why I suck? What am I, Arthur Dimmesdale?

[Shawon]

So, we've been given articles that tell us we suck, and now a videos that tells us we suck.

What next, maybe a live public speech at GP: Columbus on why Legacy players suck?

[4eak]

Take it seriously.




(There were grains of truth in the video that we should extract -- 1. Don't be a sore loser, 2. Play more magic 3. Be a pro if you want to be good at magic and win tournaments -- The argument, overall, was lacking though.)



peace,
4eak

[menace13]

I would never play any format over eternal ones. Ever.
This is the only season I did not play Std(Zen forward, missing Gideons and 2 Jaces for now) and I sold all my Ext decks in April. I also hate Limited of any kind. I like Duals,Brainstorm,FoW,Rituals etc... To me it would be like pulling A Hugh Grant http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrityn...g-2009318/2760 when i have this waiting for me

[sauce]

blanket statement video is blanketing.

[Nessaja]

Your site must be doing really bad if you're screaming for attention with crap like this.

Seriously even though you make a valid point in what you're saying, it's not anything new nor anything special. All you're doing is flamebating people and the only logical explanation I can find for that is pageviews.

[MMogg]

Can't see the video (youtube), but I find the comments in here interesting and wonder how valid the points are. Playing more Magic and more formats as a way to be a more well-rounded Magic player, which will then carry over into Legacy, I don't feel is as valid as people are making out to be. Look at Grand Prix Madrid. LSV, regarded as one of the top pros and not new to Legacy at all, scrubbed out, even after his byes. Then there is someone like New Horizons Dave Price who has done fairly well not only at the SCGs, but also Vestal and came up with NH, which has certainly made an impact on Legacy. I don't think Legacy only is innately bad or good. "Play more, more practice, and practice makes perfect" ideas are a bit too non-nuanced. The reality is that people play: a) what they like (if you don't enjoy it, don't do it); b) what they can play (based on resources like time and money). I sometimes think these full-time Magic talking heads live in a world of their own. Their entire existence is Magic and they imagine everyone else's is too.

[Aleksandr]

The man makes a good point, but one we already know and few here would care about either way.

I did not even open the video, because I am not that kind of nerd that opens mtg videos. I also pretty like previous comments and the very cdr quote (that quoted the man Bill Starke or whatever is the name of that guy I am too lazy to scroll up to unravel his name) made me decide to not ever in my life look at the recommended web page.

Also, who cares if one becomes better in Legacy by playing Strandad, Type 1.x (rofl...) or any other kiddie.type that exists. Its like saying "listen to Holki, so you better understand Beethoven". Nonsense, I'd rather be bad Legacy player and save horrid ammount of otherwise totally wasted time and money - namely when I'd rather quit if only the cards were not been impregnated by heroin -, than improve my skills of a leet-mtg-pilot who wears baseball cap with a peak backwards, talks crap, smells bad, fears the women and has some tough nickname like "Kenji".

tl, dr: guy sucks.

EDIT: menace13 hit the nail on the head. It's pretty sig-worthy.

And MMogg, I just noticed your avatar. And I love you more and more, but I think you already know it...

[Zilla]

Honestly, the tone of the video is far less combative and condescending than the title would imply. It's a pity that the choice of title (which is certainly link-bait) ensures that the focus of the discussion is going to be the video's title and not its contents. While this tactic might be good for one-time hits, it seems likely to discourage repeat visits.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Its clearly an attention getting video. You insult a group of people its not like we are going to just smile. But, his point is quite inaccurate, most of the Legacy players I know also play: limited, vintage, some waste money on standard, and almost all of them play EDH. There are maybe 5 people in my local legacy meta that only play legacy. Even then, I don't see how it makes you a bad Magic player. Why would I waste time playing other formats that don't interest me in the least? Its like saying, in order to be a better poker player you need to regularly play other games than just Holdem. Its a totally flawed statement, why would you need to play other games when you can consistently win at the stakes you play? I get the whole "broaden your horizons" thing, but some people really don't give a shit about other formats and how that makes them a bad Magic player, even if they consistently top 8 in their local meta ... I will never know.

Personally I think Legacy and Vintage players are the smartest Magic players there are, we buy our cards once.

[Vacrix]

..the fuck?
Are you serious Bill?

You think the other formats don't have this issue? Think about it. There is a very low frequency of Legacy players when compared to Standard. Naturally, you will be able to generalize with more ease because there is a smaller sample size. Imagine one guy is playing his own format, and he is a dick. Easy to generalize. Now imagine there is another format that an infinite number of people play. Harder to generalize isn't it? We'd like to think that all Standard players are stupid, and Legacy players often joke about that. The reality is thats just not true. There are plenty of dumbass Standard players, but there are plenty of good ones too.

Be careful with your generalizations before you yourself are judged. Remember, when one dick plays his own format, its easy to call him a dick. When you have your own blog, your goal should be NOT to be that guy.

[Vacrix]

Also... from CDR's link..

Fail:

I am the hardest working man in Magic. I don't mean that hyperbolically or in a table-flopping epeen fashion. I truly am the hardest working man (person) in Magic. Consider my schedule presently: I wake up at 8 a.m. (on a good day), eat breakfast, grab a shower, and head in to the Wizards of the Coast offices by 9 a.m. I often work for them on short-term contracts on projects like Duels of the Planeswalkers, Magic development, editing, video work, promotional efforts, and all manner of things. I put in an eight hour day at the office, then head home at 5 or 6 p.m. That provides time to grab dinner and relax with my girlfriend (watching "Futurama" on a good night, "The Hills" on a tragically bad one). By around 10 p.m. it's time to go to work on TheStarkingtonPost.com scouring the web for the major news stories of the day and updating them in a timely fashion. That also means editing articles, podcasts, and videos and uploading them. If it's one of those good days around 2 a.m. I wrap things up and have time for five or six hours of shut-eye before waking up to do it again. And the weekend? I haven't got one. Friday afternoons I leave work early to head to the airport for a flight to somewhere in the world, then spend Saturday and Sunday working 12-15 hours a day covering a Magic tournament or gunslinging, returning on Monday (the airplane ride on the way home is my "weekend"), updating TheStarkingtonPost.com each night as stories dictate. Wash, rinse, repeat. So when I say I'm the busiest person in Magic? I mean I'm the person working 15+ hour days seven days each week on Magic: The Gathering. And I mean it.

That doesn't even come CLOSE to Pi4meterftw and Forbiddian's 36 hour day schedules.

[morgan_coke]

I would like to thank Mr. Stark for making this thread because it led to menace posting that pic of Liz Hurley.

[Cthuloo]

Hello, I'm Rod Laver. I'm a professional tennis player and didn't play at grand slam tournaments since 1962 because I wasn't allowed, but I did play and win a lot in the pro circuit. Now it's 1969 and I'm admitted again, so, guess what? I'm going to kick amateurs in the ass and do the Gran Slam.

Confront with:

Hello, I'm Gabriel Nassif. I'm a professional magic player and didn't play legacy tournaments in the last years because there wasn't any, but I did play and win a lot in the pro circuit. Now it's 2009 and there's a legacy GP again, so, guess what? I'm going to kick amateurs in the ass and win the whole thing.

So, pros win the legacy GPs because they spend a lot more time in playing magic then common legacy players, and are overall better players because, well, they're pro. Legacy is mostly an amateur format. I spend probably more time reading forum posts than playing magic. I attend a tournament every two or three months and play with friends once a week (including casual) and I guess something similar is true for most people here. I'm an average player because I've got no time to get better, but play legacy because I love it. If I were to attend a GP my preparation will probably consist in a handful of evening playtesting, while IIRC, some time ago Cedric Phillips (might be wrong on the man, but it was a SCG writer) stated that he spent 8 hours a day for one month playtesting dredge before making top8 at a Pro Tour.

How can you even compare this different kind of dedication? The point the man made is not a point: legacy players are what they are because they like what they are.

[Aleksandr]

Insane avatar, btw. Guys, you make me very happy.

some time ago Cedric Phillips (might be wrong on the man, but it was a SCG writer) stated that he spent 8 hours a day for one month playtesting dredge before making top8 at a Pro Tour.

This is not a dedication, this is addiction. Very stupid. Very very stupid.

I'd rather dance to this song:

[Eksem]

The point the man made is not a point: legacy players are what they are because they like what they are.

Agreed. While I wouldn't mind being a good player, playing formats I don't even like to get there is not worth it for me. Of course pro players are good at Legacy, they are good at Poker too, and could probably hold their own in most games where probability, resource management and mind games play a big role. I like being the kind of player I am, otherwise, I would probably either play a lot more, or a lot less. That skill requires focused time is not a surprise for any of us, we are adults. There really is no take away here.

[mujadaddy]

I'd rather dance to this song:

...are you asking me to dance?

[five]

Who cares that the pros have a solid track record of winning Legacy GP's? They probably win all the Standard and Limited GP's too. They're pros, that's what they are supposed to do. They have more time and resources to dedicate to the game, so winning comes much easier for them.

I play Legacy because the decks never rotate (unless a key card gets banned), and because it is the funnest format. The huge deck pool makes the format more interesting than any other. Why play Jund mirror matches when you could experiance so much more? I like Magic, and will play Limited or Standard from time to time, but I always have more fun at my local Legacy tournaments. Plus, Legacy players in general are much friendlier than those found at other tournaments. Most of the cocky, competitive assholes go out to the FNM's and PTQ's etc. It is less fun playing aginst people with this type of attitude. You can be competitve with out being a dick, you know?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Most Eternal players do play other formats; see Vintae, EDH, Cube, Pile, CYOS. I would think that the reason people generally don't play Standard/Block/Limited is that those formats are more energy intensive (money not actually being the biggest motivator here).

This is somewhat like if I railed against people that make ham sandwiches for not learning how bake their own bread, cure their own meats and make the best sandwiches they could possibly make. The answer is that to most people, it's not worth the time and investment to make the best sandwiches they could possibly make. It would require time and energy they would rather direct into something else, and the fact that they spend any time making their own food instead of just eating out doesn't mean that they're being scrubs for not taking that to the further possible conclusion and flying off to learn at el Bulli. In essence you're looking at someone's secondary or tertiary hobbies and asking why they're not turning that into a career the way that professional magic players have. Even if it's just a second career, it's still an enormous amount of time and energy.

Also, the last Grand Prix Columbus wasn't Legacy.

It's certainly true that when we think we're smart, we tend to want to affirm this rather than risking an activity that's alien and will challenge us and make us feel inferior, but this goes beyond merely dealing with one "strategy" in a single game (that was a huge stretch, incidentally). One may as well ask why more professional Magic players don't try to play Starcraft competitively, or chess.

Where is the line between being overly comfortable with the challenges we've familiarized ourselves with, where we should push ourselves, and where it's simply reasonable to not make the effort because your energies are focused elsewhere? I don't know. And neither do you, because you're just some guy making annoying videos on the internet.

[technogeek5000]

I play a good deal of limited and I believe it helps my game, but throwing insults to make people see your point does not work and only creates a negative mindset against you.