The Problem with Legacy Players

[Shawn]

I think the "play more formats, or more magic in general" idea is applicable for most people, not just legacy players. However, after spending my day at class, then work and/or practice, then a little legacy testing or a money draft, more magic isn't high on my priority list. I'd rather party, go to a game, relax and watch a movie, or do something else.

I do test some standard, and I've played in a few big tournaments around the midwest recently, but it's mostly because that is what my friends play. Also, with the obligations I listed, it's hard to make time and find money for standard/extended/whatever tournaments.

[dahcmai]

I find the comments of how Standard, Limited, and Sealed being more expensive than Legacy quite comforting. Bout time.

[SpikeyMikey]

It is less fun playing aginst people with this type of attitude. You can be competitve with out being a dick, you know?

The true greats are generally not dickheads. I met Bob Maher at Worlds in San Francisco. I grew up in the Madison WI area so Bob is like my personal hero (yes, I know I'm a hopeless geek) and I was so excited when he stopped to watch me play T1 and commented on the game to a friend that I stopped midmatch to stand up, shake his hand and tell him how much I respected him. He was the soul of courtesy and graciousness.

[Bardo]

The vid-cast is spot on; I had no issues with it and fully predict this GP will be won by a pro as well.

Personally, I'm a Legacy-only (and EDH) guy (only because my time is limited) and know I'd be a better player if I had more time to devote to other formats.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

The true greats are generally not dickheads.

Seconded. When you're one of the best, you probably don't feel the need to be a massive asshole probably because you're secure in your results. The only guys who write inflammatory crap are the insecure masses of mediocre wannabes. But yes, a real pro will win Columbus. Or I will. Eiither way, I'm ok with it.

[Vacrix]

Where is the line between being overly comfortable with the challenges we've familiarized ourselves with, where we should push ourselves, and where it's simply reasonable to not make the effort because your energies are focused elsewhere? I don't know. And neither do you, because you're just some guy making annoying videos on the internet.

/thread

[SpikeyMikey]

Bardo: Ish. Playing other formats will help you understand general Magic theory (especially limited which forces you to use cards in flexible ways and get maximum utility out of each card in ways constructed can't). But most people are as incapable of truly understanding deep magic theory as they are of understanding high level philosophy. Their minds don't function in the necessary ways. Look at how long it's taken for the idea of tempo as card advantage to catch on.

For most people, I think more benefit is gained from playing their primary format. A cornerback may gain some additional insight into football theory by playing OLB, but he's likely to get the maximum benefit for his time just running routes against a variety of skilled wide receivers. Saying that the move to OLB will broaden his horizons is true, but it does not necessarily follow that it will make him a better CB. It will make him better at football in general, but if his desire is to be the best CB and not to be an all around good football player, that experience is of limited use.

[Brad Herbig]

I'm a Legacy, EDH, and cube draft only kind-of-guy. I know that I am not and will never be as good as the pros are at any format I play, and that doesn't really bother me. Magic is a hobby, and I play it as such. It just turns out that since I don't have the desire to devote all the time and money necessary in becoming and staying competitive in Standard, Limited, etc., I choose to play eternal/casual formats. Not because I think the format is "mine" or that I know better than the pros; its because I enjoy playing Magic and don't enjoy spending money on it.

[Forbiddian]

Most Eternal players do play other formats; see Vintae, EDH, Cube, Pile, CYOS. I would think that the reason people generally don't play Standard/Block/Limited is that those formats are more energy intensive (money not actually being the biggest motivator here).

This is somewhat like if I railed against people that make ham sandwiches for not learning how bake their own bread, cure their own meats and make the best sandwiches they could possibly make. The answer is that to most people, it's not worth the time and investment to make the best sandwiches they could possibly make. It would require time and energy they would rather direct into something else, and the fact that they spend any time making their own food instead of just eating out doesn't mean that they're being scrubs for not taking that to the further possible conclusion and flying off to learn at el Bulli. In essence you're looking at someone's secondary or tertiary hobbies and asking why they're not turning that into a career the way that professional magic players have. Even if it's just a second career, it's still an enormous amount of time and energy.

Also, the last Grand Prix Columbus wasn't Legacy.

It's certainly true that when we think we're smart, we tend to want to affirm this rather than risking an activity that's alien and will challenge us and make us feel inferior, but this goes beyond merely dealing with one "strategy" in a single game (that was a huge stretch, incidentally). One may as well ask why more professional Magic players don't try to play Starcraft competitively, or chess.

Where is the line between being overly comfortable with the challenges we've familiarized ourselves with, where we should push ourselves, and where it's simply reasonable to not make the effort because your energies are focused elsewhere? I don't know. And neither do you, because you're just some guy making annoying videos on the internet.

QFT.



He plays Magic ONE HUNDRED AND FIVE HOURS PER WEEK. Shit, son! He looks down at people who play Magic "only" 5-15 hours a week as being scrubs. I don't even know if anything more needs to be said.

It's like if Kobe Bryant showed up at your pickup basketball game and lectured everyone:

"You all suck at this game. Any professional basketball player in the world would dominate you. You all need to practice more, train more! You all only play in your puny league because you want to be a big fish in a small pond. If you actually got out there and challenged yourself, like by playing in the NBA, then you would know how much you suck and how your life is meaningless."

Maybe Bill Stark is just jealous other people do something else with their 105 hours a week, and he's just pissed that he's not a big fish in his tiny pond of "people who post shitty opinion articles about Magic on the internet." Actually, that pond is getting kinda big, but I'd rather read anything else out there than watch his Youtube video.

[Vacrix]

I haven't even heard of this guy until now. If he is so good, then maybe he should stop masturbating to Akroma for 105 hrs a week and actually win something.

[Wakkarr]

I found the video to be pretty uninformative and the silly generalizations and his apparent stereotyping of Legacy-only players to be silly.

It seems that the basis of his entire argument is that Legacy-only players should not think of themselves as better players than people who play standard/limited, simply because Legacy is so skill intensive with a huge number of interactions. I don't know anyone who thinks this way. I think he may be mistaking people saying they dislike limited/standard, for people dismissing them as formats for quality players. e.g. I don't play standard because I think too many of the decks are 'auto-pilot', this does not mean I think the players are bad, it merely reflects my person preferences when it comes to the decks I like to play. The best players in the world will always play where they can receive the most benefit from their skills, this means playing every format at every opportunity.

I think the key incorrect assumption he has made is that Legacy-only players are not the best in the world, therefore you should play lots of formats. He suggests playing multiple formats makes you better, because the pro's all play multiple formats. This is a simply case in which 'correlation does not imply causation' should be applied. The best players play several formats because they get more benefit from it, it is incorrect to take this fact and twist it to suggest that to become one of the best players you must play several formats.

In short, he has a point, but he has presented it poorly with ill-logic, stereotypes and generalizations which means the message is lost.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I haven't even heard of this guy until now. If he is so good, then maybe he should stop masturbating to Akroma for 105 hrs a week and actually win something.

idk, im pretty sure that 75% of the people here dont have any pro points, and fewer than 10% have 10+ points. not that it means anything, it's just numbers.

[ddt15]

I think the Legacy crowd is less competitive based on social grounds; most of them are older than the standard players, in other words they used to play standard a few years ago, then got a job, a wife, kids etc. They don't have time to play alot of Magic but they still enjoy doing it every now and then. Legacy is the perfect format for this, the top decks/strategies rarely change, their old T2 decks are probably viable in some way with a few updates. They play more for fun/nostalgia. Of course winning is always more fun than losing.

[Forbiddian]

idk, im pretty sure that 75% of the people here dont have any pro points, and fewer than 10% have 10+ points. not that it means anything, it's just numbers.

Not even 10% of PRO players have 10 pro points, no shit people here don't have 10 pro points.

[jazzykat]

It's a good point that he makes, in sort of a nasty way. The controversey has already gotten this thread quite large and I even watched the thing.

I play Legacy only because the metagame changes more slowly than standard's, and I can keep cards from year to year and be able to pick them up once every month or 2 to go to a tournament and not have to get new ones all the time.

While Pro magic players are professionals at magic, I am a professional in life and need to make sure that my family and job are OK, before I enjoy 1 of my 2 hobbies.

I would almost argue that Magic players should be reasonably physically fit, and sleep and eat correctly in order for their mind to function the best especially over long tournaments or during really hot ones without air conditioning, but its really irrelevant. It is a game for most of us and I think we should treat it this way.

[Aleksandr]

That Bill Starke guy should definitely acquire the knowledge that not every mtg player wants to spend hundreds of dollars per year on format like Standard that changes dramatically evry three month and is defined by chase rares like Jace, TMS or Vengevine/Baneslyaer/Harrow Titan. Or a format that never ever rotated in the same way...

Dear Bill Starke, even though it could improve my skills of an mtg player, I choose to not play random crappy overpriced formats in the same way as I have chosen to not play any other game that exists. Because - and try to live with this info - I, and most of my friends too, play this game for fun, not because... wait, stop! I got it!

And also, because some of us, you know, actually enjoy playing this game, rather than using it as a masturbatory exercise through which to attain (rather small) amounts of prize money, boost our (ultimately meaningless) player ratings, or travel (almost always at our own expense) to (not very) exotic locales. I seriously wish someone would just smack the fucking guy who wrote this article.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Is the author really making the point that to get better at something, in this case, Magic, you should do it more often?

Geez, thanks for that gem of information, Bill. I wouldn't have figured it out without you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Is the author really making the point that to get better at something, in this case, Magic, you should do it more often?

Geez, thanks for that gem of information, Bill. I wouldn't have figured it out without you.

He's making the point that to get better at something, you need to stretch your horizons and move out of your comfort zone. If you're succeeding effortlessly, you're not improving.

Which is a fine point, if his underlying assumption, that most or even many Legacy players want to put that kind of time and effort into Magic, weren't so flabbergastingly stupid. It's true that people spend time and energy on Legacy, hence the Source; but he's erasing all distinctions of degree. To continue Forbiddian's metaphor, just because someone works hard on weekends so their team can win the local amateur basketball league, doesn't mean that they want to go play for the NBA, or would even if it was offered to them. Most people likewise don't want Magic to be a career. Not if they're out of school already. Desire to win a Vestal tournament != Desire to keep current on four or five highly competitive formats by spending 105 hours a week playtesting and reading the latest strategy articles.

I used to thinks Stark had his head on straight. This pretty much just proves to me that he's a meaningless assclown without a sense of perspective.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I would almost argue that Magic players should be reasonably physically fit, and sleep and eat correctly in order for their mind to function the best especially over long tournaments or during really hot ones without air conditioning, but its really irrelevant. It is a game for most of us and I think we should treat it this way.

I don't really have anything to add to that, but that is quite a good quote.

[say no to scurvy]

He plays Magic ONE HUNDRED AND FIVE HOURS PER WEEK. Shit, son! He looks down at people who play Magic "only" 5-15 hours a week as being scrubs.

I'm not watching the video, does he actually say this? Saying I play magic for x amount of hours a week is pretty much saying I'm not good with women.