No it's not. It's saying that if you made a 1000 dollar investment, your 1000 dollar investment will still be 1000 dollars when the meta game changes from NO CB Top to Thopters CB Top, your goyfs NO's and Noble Hierarch can be traded for whatever t you needed in the thopter deck.
4 *60 (goyfs)
4 *37 (natural order)
4* 15 (noble hierarch)
vs
250 (moat
2* 80 (jace)
4* 10 (ETutor)
Standard loses value, a lot more needs to happen then a simple rotation for legacy cards to lose their value.
All you said is that when you buy more cards to make more decks Legacy is going to be more expensive, that's really smart! If you make all standard decks it's going to be more expensive too, but unlike legacy, your standard deck will drop in value greatly after rotation and you're pretty much stuck with a whole lot of non-tournament staples that you lost a lot of money on. That is the reason standard is more expensive.
This was absolutely awful in my opinion. I play Legacy (and Vintage) because I don't have the time (or want to free up the time) to compete at the higher levels in T2 or Ext.
To adress another point you were making, I don't know of a single Legacy player that claims to be better at playing Magic in the Legacy format than Nassif. Where do these assumptions come from?
The way I see Magic players; all Legacy players are kind and gentle people, I haven't come across a single douchebag (well, maybe one..) in the Legacy circuit. However in the PTQ circuit there are definately quite a few players that have no moral and only show up to win their games. Us Legacy players are not pretentious, we just have different priorities, we enjoy the culture that surrounds legacy and the awesome format, we generally don't have the time, resources and dedication it takes to be a PTQ player, but that doesn't mean we don't enjoy playing and most of all competing in Legacy.
Team R&D
Let's not start the cost argument. Nothing good will come of it. It's one of those topics where people's minds are made up and impossible to change. Let's just agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by Draener
Screw the price argument. He's right that if you want to become a better player, you have to play more Magic.
And playing other formats than legacy may sharpen your senses for "slumbering" cards - Remember that Extended players innovated control by playing CounterTop, not the Legacy players.
Sometimes you have to take a step back to see the whole picture.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
What's lacking in evidence is that there are Legacy players who are both
a) Exclusively Legacy players, and
b) Spend massive amounts of time on Legacy.
Without both of these conditions the criticism has no meaning.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Yes, he's right, but judging from this thread (again, I can't see the video in China), there doesn't seem to be much in the way of new information being conveyed. In fact, does he not even contradict himself with his own blurb on the front page of his blog (emphasis added):
Huh? Just in time? But the Grand Prix was only days away. Surely he's not suggesting this sage advice alone could transform those "sucky" bad Legacy players into winning machines. Surely playing more Magic across various formats doesn't only take a few days to have an impact.
This is an example reason why people are not taking this seriously. This is just a guy making obvious statements about the injection of time and resources towards success, which can be applied to nearly every other venture.
There's a Dutch man who was the first to grow marijuana hydroponically, and when he began he separated the plants into a variety of pots and used different soils for each pot as well as different amounts of light, water, nutrients, etc. He was trying to find the perfect recipe for each species of cannabis, and you know what: it worked! He's one of the top rated seed sellers in the whole world, and has gone to all corners of the world in search of new strains as well as mixing and splicing various strains to come up with new creations. This long analogy is just to show that yes, an infusion of time and resources and broadening one's horizon and pushing one's own innovation can reward you with dividends, but how new is that and how few people around MTG don't know this?
Here's another problem I have, is that I want to know what Bill Stark innovated to push MTG to a new level. Just becoming better has little impact. What's the difference if the first time I see the Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek combo is in Extended or in Legacy? The majority of pros, including Stark, did not innovate the majority of creations, so I don't really understand the importance of being on the cusp of discovery or waiting a while. Legacy is not like Standard or Extended that is driven by a small handful of top decks. It is slow moving and slow to innovate. Along the same lines that others were arguing over cost, Goblins 2 years ago and Goblins now are relatively unchanged. Switching out Standstills for Commanders hasn't revolutionized Merfolk. Now show me a Standard deck that is older than two years.
Bottom line: wanting to become better is far different than wanting to be the best.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
I really enjoyed the video, I figure anything that pushes you to be better can't be all bad. He makes a valid point that legacy players usually don't play as much as standard players, although in my area there area there are two events per week. :)
The thing I do not like about it is that it paints all legacy players as people that can't make the cut in standard. I for one enjoy the nostalgia of legacy and more than that I really, really don't like to constantly update my deck. I know that adjusting your deck to the new meta every few months is part of the game but I prefer to master all aspects of my deck, knowing it inside and out.
Then again I am not a top tier player and while I do love competing, I mainly play for the enjoyment of the game.
Thing is, I know a lot of Legacy players who are like "hurr, our format is t3h best, T2 and limited suxxxx" and refuse to play other formats - some of them never played T2 before, nor do they know anything about it other than Jund being a good deck.
I'm not talking about professional players when I talk about innovation - but I find it disturbing that CounterTop was developed in Extended, when it should've been obvious that it's bonkers in Legacy.
Does that show the general conservative mindset of Legacy players, their inability to understand cards in a context (including their very own format!) - or does it demonstrate that playing more formats than 1 sharpens your mind for discovering such things?
Or was it just a coincidende?
PS: I'm talking about Extended players playing other formats, because I know not a single person who plays exclusively Extended - nearly everyone of them also plays Standard, Legacy and/or Limited. However, I know a bunch of Legacy players who refuse to play other formats.
PSPS: If you feel attacked by my post, realize that I'm not attacking you personally.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
idk, I've always believed that people who hate limited suck at building decks. I like limited because I feel I'm a good deck builder and can demonstrate that by building a good deck based on the resources I'm given. In a recent interview Erwin did with Chapin at SCG, Chapin said that the problem with the current state of Magic is that 90% of people net deck and there's little innovation anymore. The same ten people build decks, do well with them, then everyone copies that deck. I'm also a big fan of casual formats because it allows for innovation and keeps me on my deck-building toes.
I don't know too many people that "only play legacy because it's the best", even the arrogant know that if you're going to be a douche, take it to the Nth and be a Vintage Elitist. Legacy is, after all, poor-man's Vintage, and who wants to be the king of the poor?
Skizzik No Kicker. Like a true retard.
1) For the fourth or fifth fucking time, Legacy players do play other formats. Almost universally. They just tend to play other Eternal formats, like Vintage, Cube, EDH, CYOS, etc.. For pretty much the same reason they play Legacy.
2) Counter-Top was played in Legacy- as a sideboard in Thresh for the mirror. Counter-Top was fucking terrible as a maindeck strategy up until the printing of Tarmogoyf, when the topdeck was Goblins and combo was weak. Generally the Legacy community has defined the metagame; the top 8 of every non-Columbus Grand Prix has been dominated by metagame staples with maybe a couple of surprises.
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about and your comments are based less on experience than on whatever vapid air-headed meme led Stark to making his ridiculous spiel public without the sense of shame that would've hampered a wiser man.
If Legacy players are assholes sometimes it's because we're generally a fairly well-knit community of people that are in this for a serious but laid back experience- that is, the Source is for serious innovation, but no one has plans to make it their life. We take it only as seriously as one should take a side hobby. And for the last five fucking years we've had to deal with the same mind-numbingly fucking stupid arrogant bullshit from pros and wannabe pros who generally barge into the format with no idea of what the best decks are, ignore and trash the opinions of people with actual experience playing the fucking format, and basically insult everyone in the community before getting offended that they're not being hailed as saviors on a white fucking horse, running back to whine to their friends about what a pack of elitists we are. How the fucking Hell can a douchebag like Bill fucking Stark come in here posting some attention grabbing, arrogant as all fucking Hell video bitching about how all Legacy players suck for not spending as much time on the game as he does and then with a straight face complain about our arrogance?
I've known quite a few pros in real life that were cool people, but I'm guessing, reasonably, that those aren't the ones who feel a need to go to forums for part-time gamers and try to strut their bona fides. Who's the dipshit trying to be a big fish in a small pond again, Mr. I-spend-105-hours-a-week-on-this-game?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I play Legacy only, It just is the most fun format (for me that is) so whats wrong with only playing that.
For the video:
Well, thanks for stating the obvious. Play more Magic to get better at Magic, are you for real?
The average Legacy player is probably as good as the average T2 player ( in their respective format) and the pros are above that, mostly because of time investment, yeah, hard to figure that out.
And i gotta agree with IBA, why do people think it is a good idea to flame Legacy players if they want good feedback from them....?
Yeah, it's getting really annoying. Why can't they do like, oh I don't know, LSV or Nassif or Saito, guys that just picks up a good deck and performs well with it while having fun. You know, being a pro, doing well and not being a douche. It cannot possibly be that hard.
The video could have been an interesting treatise on how to take your Legacy game to the next level, and if that is your goal, this video could have been helpful. The problem lies in the fact that Bill obviously doesn't have a strong beat on who his audience is, and used a cheap play on emotions to get people to watch his video. Tact is totally lacking, and it really detracts from what could have been a positive video to motivate people who actually care about being better at Legacy and winning tournaments.
Ugh, alright, I guess you folks misunderstood what I wanted to say/I expressed myself poorly (english isn#t my native language, mind you).
Fact is that from the ~60 Legacy players I know IRL, about 10% of them think Standard is a terrible format, Extended is bullshit (they're right about that one...) and that Limited is a waste of time.
These are the people I see making terrible plays in the very format they claim to be "the best".
Sniffing the air of another format can help to see things from a different angle and, my god, that's what I think some players should do. Nothing else.
PS: I'm out of this conversation. I stated my point and that's it for me here.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Wait... so he insults legacy players and says that pro players come into legacy all the time and win because everyone else in legacy sucks.
First of all, The other formats he talks about all have pro tours and big money tournaments, where as legacy has very few in comparison (if at all really).
THAT is why Pro players don't play legacy very often , I mean, if you're a pro why bother playing in a format that's small potatoes compared to the other formats?
I guarantee you if this were to change and wizard started doing legacy pro tours and big money tournaments and concentrated less on the other formats, all the best players would start playing Legacy and then what would you say Bill Stark? Would you start telling everyone who plays other formats they suck and should start playing legacy?
See, I suck. I play bad decks like Imperial Painter and Aluren and the white one with karakas and mangara which i forgot the name. However, to be *good* at magic, that would mean dedicating time to it. I work 40ish hours of week, have a house, two cats. I got better stuff to do than be good at Magic or something. I believe that's the case with most Legacy players. More mature audience, etc.
Ya see, you're just doing it so wrong. I work 40 hrs a week as well, but after work, I grab a Subway sub and head off to my playtest group at the local store. We stay up until about 2 a.m. practicing all the formats, and yeah, I get home dead tired and I missed the first 5 years of my son's growing up, and yeah my son calls my wife's boyfriend (I can't take care of her needs either... fair enough) "daddy", but damn it, I haven't wasted a Brainstorm since 2002 and I was playing Hypergenesis combo in Legacy back in January. Now I ask you, doesn't that sound like it's worth it? If you make some sacrifices the rewards are obvious.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Da... Daddy?Ya see, you're just doing it so wrong. I work 40 hrs a week as well, but after work, I grab a Subway sub and head off to my playtest group at the local store. We stay up until about 2 a.m. practicing all the formats, and yeah, I get home dead tired and I missed the first 5 years of my son's growing up, and yeah my son calls my wife's boyfriend (I can't take care of her needs either... fair enough) "daddy", but damn it, I haven't wasted a Brainstorm since 2002 and I was playing Hypergenesis combo in Legacy back in January. Now I ask you, doesn't that sound like it's worth it? If you make some sacrifices the rewards are obvious.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Ya see, you're just doing it so wrong. I work 40 hrs a week as well, but after work, I grab a Subway sub and head off to my playtest group at the local store. We stay up until about 2 a.m. practicing all the formats, and yeah, I get home dead tired and I missed the first 5 years of my son's growing up, and yeah my son calls my wife's boyfriend (I can't take care of her needs either... fair enough) "daddy", but damn it, I haven't wasted a Brainstorm since 2002 and I was playing Hypergenesis combo in Legacy back in January. Now I ask you, doesn't that sound like it's worth it? If you make some sacrifices the rewards are obvious.
You made my day.
But I think you should install MTGO on your computer at work. Why waste 40 hrs of valuable playtest time?
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