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Thread: [DTB] Sneak Attack

  1. #2061
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by JPA View Post
    I can't call for a mod everytime I want to edit something in the original primer. It's much easier this way, a link to this thread is in there.
    I have PM'd Zilla for other possible solutions. He may contact you directly however or update it himself.
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Typically you write a new primer, make a new thread, then PM a mod linking them to the old primer and the new one you wrote. Then they will move your new primer to the appropriate thread and move the old thread into some sad, lonely graveyard forum. You will link to the old thread in the new primer thread, just so people know where to look for old discussions. And you basically just start over with a new thread.
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Well, that's what I did.

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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    No need for the sad face. You already wrote a new primer. Just PM a mod and ask them to move stuff around. They will take care of it. You did all the work already. This is a good thing!

    edit in response to edit:
    Okay then. You are all set! Grats on the new primer! I was mostly clarifying the process for people who may have thought you did something wrong.
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    I asked Nihil Credo, because he does the DTB-stuff. Now that Apple asked Zilla I fear there might be some confusion.

  6. #2066
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by JPA View Post
    I asked Nihil Credo, because he does the DTB-stuff. Now that Apple asked Zilla I fear there might be some confusion.
    I'm sure they will read our post and discuss amongst themselves. I linked zilla to our conversation.

    EDIT*** Zilla responded and Nihl Creedo should take care of it when he can
    Last edited by apple713; 12-12-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by AnziD View Post
    RE: Gitaxian Probe

    Perhaps its just the anecdotal evidence of my play experience, but the card has never shined. I don't think its necessarily bad, but the exact information you get isn't always as helpful as it sounds. There are times when you peek into your opponents hand and see that you can't win a counter war, so you don't play out your hand. But is that silent victory actually a victory? I mean, its not as if your opponents hand is going to get worse as you try to draw your outs, and its not as if casting Gitaxian Probe will pull you back into the game. Eventually you'll take a bunch of damage and then go off out of desperation, but the opponents counters won't have gone anywhere. In this scenario (which is a large part of why people opt to play the card), Probe is just low impact. It pushes you to rely on the top of your deck rather than giving you control over what you draw, which cards like Preordain achieve. There are also other times when you peek into your opponents hand and see that they have a permanent you might not want them to sneak into play. I guess its helpful in this situation, but I feel like a proper understanding of the meta and a proper understanding of what cards are played in each deck should be more than enough to predict what decks its safe to cast S&T against. I read Huey's article on Sneak and Show and something very important I gathered was that a good pilot of this deck must be able to discern what the opponent is playing within the first or second turn (so as to sculpt a better game plan, identify if casting S&T or Sneak Attack is better, etc). I feel like this genre of playstyle, where you use established knowledge of decks and the metagame to calculate the game, is far more valuable across 12 rounds than using Probe to play around the opponent's hand perfectly. Why? Because its our burden as competitive players to assume worst-case scenarios. The fact that Probe reveals a hand you can't beat shouldn't be a counterargument - you should already be playing to beat that stacked hand. The fact that Probe reveals a hand you can beat shouldn't be a counterargument either - you should be making reads from the moment your opponent sits down on the other side of the table to the point that when you're opponent can't fight back, you'll know. The latter claim is actually very difficult to get a good grasp of. I'm definitely not capable of it. But playing Probe doesn't exactly teach me how to get better, does it? I know I harped on this a bit earlier, but if we assume that we're doing things optimally and making reads to the best of our ability, Probe just reads "Pay 2 life: Draw a card". That's low impact and not where we want to be with this deck. I'd much rather have a card that gives me more vision to sculpt future turns or is a business spell like Misdirection, Daze, etc.

    Technicolor Mage, if I may suggest as an exercise: Try playing a few games without Gitaxian Probe. You've identified that you have trouble figuring out what decks certain people are playing, and I understand that its hard (I myself am relatively new to Legacy and I slip in judgment all the time). To get better at this, instead of playing Probe, write down all the turn 1 plays you run into through your games and try to think (post-game) what possible decks would make that turn 1 play. Hopefully that kind of introspection will help you develop what I think is a huge skill in Legacy - being able to pinpoint what your opponent is playing as early as turn 1.
    I appreciate the pointers and the depth of this explanation. Helpful yet again!

    Quote Originally Posted by JPA View Post
    Please continue discussion in the new thread with updated primer: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Sneak-and-Show

    @ AnziD and Technicolor Mage: I will add a brief "how to identify you are playing against x" for every matchup in the matchup-section.
    Looking forward to it!

  8. #2068
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    @AnziD

    I'm really glad you wrote all that because now I don't have to. You have captured perfectly what I feel about gitaxian probe. Simply put, Gitaxian probe often reveals information that has very low impact on the game and "pay 2 life: draw a card" is not very good.

    @ Technicolor Mage

    Please do that exercise that anziD recommended. Identifying decks on the first turn or 2 is critical. The easiest Identifier as to what deck is sitting across from you is typically its land base. Many decks keep a fetch land in play until their second turn and its difficult until they actually use them. However many turn 1 plays reveal what your opponent is playing, or at least the type of deck they are playing.

    few examples

    Land: rishadan port <---- if this is the first land its usually D&T unless lands / goblins kept a bad hand, or goblins drops a vial.
    Deck: Goblins / death and taxes / 43 lands
    Type - Aggro - just win fast

    Land: mutavault
    Deck: merfolk / Slivers
    Type - Tempo - watch out for counters

    Land: Karakas / plains
    Deck: death and taxes
    type: Anti Sneak attack - get lucky :P

    Land: taiga
    Deck: Jund / 43 lands / zoo <--- if you see this in your meta it expect to win :P
    Type aggro / control - expect to win


    Land: Bayou
    Deck: BUG / Jund / Nic Fit / loam Pox
    Type: Aggro / control - expect discard


    Land: tropical island
    Deck: RUG / Bant <---- you play against this just about the same as you play against RUG so it doesn't really matter
    Type: Tempo (watch for counter spells)


    Land: Ancient tomb / city of traitors
    Deck: Dragon stumpy / Imperial Painter / MUD / Stax / Sneak Attack <------ should refrain from playing either of those turn 1 unless you are casting show and tell / sneak attack
    Type: Control - Chalice of void on 1, watch out for phyrexian revoker.

    Land: Volcanic island
    Deck: RUG / Sneak Attack

    Land: Underground Sea
    Deck: Reanimator / BUG / Team America / Esper / ANT (5 Good decks use it, probably why its it most expensive)
    Type: Tricky one - but expect minor disruption like daze / spell pierce / discard

    Land: Scrubland
    Deck: Esper / Rock
    Type: Aggro - expect swords to plowshares

    Land: Savannah
    Deck: Maverick
    Type: Aggro - expect swords to plowshares

    Land: Tundra
    Deck: Miracles / Esper
    Type: Control / aggro - expect swords to plowshares / watch out for karakas / play around counters

    Land: Plateau
    Deck: ???
    Type: Rouge

    Land: Gemstone Mine / Cephalid Colosseum / City of Brass
    Deck: Dredge / Hypergenesis / TES
    Type: Combo / expect discard

    Land: island
    Deck: High tide / omnitell / Merfolk
    Type: combo / control - expect counters

    Spell: Aether vial
    Deck: Goblins / Death and Taxes / Merfolk / Slivers

    Spell: Sensei's divining top
    Deck: Miracles / Nic Fit / Combo decks

    Spell: Preordain
    Deck: High tide / omnitell / ANT (maybe)




    Obviously this isn't everything but its a good start. As more cards are revealed you will be able to more easily determine what deck you are playing against.
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  9. #2069

    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by AnziD View Post
    RE: Gitaxian Probe

    Perhaps its just the anecdotal evidence of my play experience, but the card has never shined. I don't think its necessarily bad, but the exact information you get isn't always as helpful as it sounds. There are times when you peek into your opponents hand and see that you can't win a counter war, so you don't play out your hand. But is that silent victory actually a victory? I mean, its not as if your opponents hand is going to get worse as you try to draw your outs, and its not as if casting Gitaxian Probe will pull you back into the game. Eventually you'll take a bunch of damage and then go off out of desperation, but the opponents counters won't have gone anywhere. In this scenario (which is a large part of why people opt to play the card), Probe is just low impact. It pushes you to rely on the top of your deck rather than giving you control over what you draw, which cards like Preordain achieve. There are also other times when you peek into your opponents hand and see that they have a permanent you might not want them to sneak into play. I guess its helpful in this situation, but I feel like a proper understanding of the meta and a proper understanding of what cards are played in each deck should be more than enough to predict what decks its safe to cast S&T against. I read Huey's article on Sneak and Show and something very important I gathered was that a good pilot of this deck must be able to discern what the opponent is playing within the first or second turn (so as to sculpt a better game plan, identify if casting S&T or Sneak Attack is better, etc). I feel like this genre of playstyle, where you use established knowledge of decks and the metagame to calculate the game, is far more valuable across 12 rounds than using Probe to play around the opponent's hand perfectly. Why? Because its our burden as competitive players to assume worst-case scenarios. The fact that Probe reveals a hand you can't beat shouldn't be a counterargument - you should already be playing to beat that stacked hand. The fact that Probe reveals a hand you can beat shouldn't be a counterargument either - you should be making reads from the moment your opponent sits down on the other side of the table to the point that when you're opponent can't fight back, you'll know. The latter claim is actually very difficult to get a good grasp of. I'm definitely not capable of it. But playing Probe doesn't exactly teach me how to get better, does it? I know I harped on this a bit earlier, but if we assume that we're doing things optimally and making reads to the best of our ability, Probe just reads "Pay 2 life: Draw a card". That's low impact and not where we want to be with this deck. I'd much rather have a card that gives me more vision to sculpt future turns or is a business spell like Misdirection, Daze, etc.
    Having played storm for the most part fairly recently my favorite card has been gitaxian probe in that deck. While it is better in that deck then in this one, the purpose remains the same it tells you what hate to play around.
    For example if your opponent boarded in meddling mage, and was already playing force of will you need to know if you're trying to land show and tell vbefore meddling mage, or if you need to win the counter war. This functions the same if you're trying to beat discard and counters or any combination of hate. Also letting you know you can go if is a real thing, i would rather windmill slam turn 1 emrakul knowing it is clear then wait till turn three to find my force.

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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    @ Apple - Thanks for those tips, will print that out. I also printed out your sideboard stuff a few pages back - so you know at least 1 person appreciated your thoughts.

    As to the Probe debate:
    Probes slots would likely just be filled with more counter magic if it weren't played. I see pros/cons no matter how you do it.

    More than anything, I just need to play the deck day in day out, whether that is paper or cockatrice in order to get the experience of Legacy under my belt

    At any rate, the dialogue here is good and the answers to my noob questions are much appreciated

    For the Invitational this weekend, I hope SnS places well

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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage View Post
    @ Apple - Thanks for those tips, will print that out. I also printed out your sideboard stuff a few pages back - so you know at least 1 person appreciated your thoughts.

    As to the Probe debate:
    Probes slots would likely just be filled with more counter magic if it weren't played. I see pros/cons no matter how you do it.

    More than anything, I just need to play the deck day in day out, whether that is paper or cockatrice in order to get the experience of Legacy under my belt

    At any rate, the dialogue here is good and the answers to my noob questions are much appreciated

    For the Invitational this weekend, I hope SnS places well
    Thanks for the kind words. Its nice to know im not wasting my time talking to myself on here.
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  12. #2072

    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    I think alot of people appreciate the work that is put into each and every thread. I really do love this deck, but as of late my meta has become so hostile against it that even the one frequent easy wins are near non-existent even over a month. I am still putting up a positive record but the draw of this deck is weaning with all the hate that seems to slowly be creeping its way into EVERY deck I face is making me want to switch my angle and run with something that receives less incidental hate.

  13. #2073
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by nodahero View Post
    I think alot of people appreciate the work that is put into each and every thread. I really do love this deck, but as of late my meta has become so hostile against it that even the one frequent easy wins are near non-existent even over a month. I am still putting up a positive record but the draw of this deck is weaning with all the hate that seems to slowly be creeping its way into EVERY deck I face is making me want to switch my angle and run with something that receives less incidental hate.
    Im noticing the same thing. I will probably break from it for a bit and play dark depths. The list in currently using plays the same cantrip/counterspell package as this deck and shares some fetches.
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Apple:

    Can you post your decklist?

    I will probably rotate between SnS and u/W/R Delver

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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage View Post
    Apple:

    Can you post your decklist?

    I will probably rotate between SnS and u/W/R Delver
    My list for what? Dark Depths or sneak and show?
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  16. #2076
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    Re: [DTB] Sneak Attack

    YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.

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