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Thread: "in response", "at the end of turn"

  1. #1
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    "in response", "at the end of turn"

    This is common among players here.

    You guys helped me to understand the rules of priority, but there is something i would like to know.

    Case A)
    I am playing the Sensei Top Ability to look at the 3 cards, and in response i do it X times, so I can look deeper into the library.

    I personally think that it is impossible to stack Top's ability to go deeper into the Library. No matter how many of them are stacked, they resolve each one by one allowing to look at top 3 cards for X times. However some people here think so.

    Case B)
    I am playing a spell when opponent say "In response i am playing spell".
    This is bit more complicated.

    Am I supposed to pass priority at all times? (I guess NO, it depends on me when i pass the priority?) Is there any difference if its my or opponents main phase?

    The opponent has revealed card, paid mana cost before i passed the priority. However i want to continue play my spells before i pass the priority. Is the opponent allowed to untap mana and get back the card on hand?

    Case C)
    I am playing MOM, Then i pass the priority to opponent asking him if he wants to respond. He says no. Then i continue playing another spell, lets say something instant. Now the opponent announces "i am playing counterspell on MOM" because he realized something which was not so obvious before i played the second spell.

    At moment when the opponent announced he responses the MOM was currently not on stack but on battlefield (in play). Am I right? Even in situation when I did tactically error because i wanted to play both spells at once i cannot take the situation back because MOM already resolved.

    Case D)
    Player puts 2 spells on stack, his opponent says that he reacts on the first announced spell, then player draw back to hand second spell. Just say that card has been revealed. Player has passed the priority to opponents request in middle of playing next spell.

    Case E)
    Its end of my turn. I ask the opponent if he wants to do at the end it. He says no. Do I receive the priority back or no? Is it still my turn, or i have to announce end of my turn.

    Case F)
    its end of my turn. I ask the opponent if he wans to do at the end of it. he says yes and he do some actions, however I want to react, however opponent has announced his next turn.

    Main question:
    Has requesting priority by the "response shortcut" any reason? It just displays that the opponent wants something to do and it is only depending on me if I allow him to play at that time... Is that correct?

    It helps a bit to play correctly, however some situations are pretty ridiculous, because this is not a rule in standard way.

  2. #2
    Timmy-Spike-Melvin . . . . . Level 2 Judge

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    Re: "in response", "at the end of turn"

    Disclaimer: Most of the time I will explain the rules by talking about casting spells, but activating abilities follows the same rules about priotity. You may substitue each cast with activate and spell with ability.
    I will also assume everything happens at a tournament setting with a judge. On MWS most people would consider such behavior as rules lawyering, too harsh or "unsporting".

    A) You are correct.
    If you activate top multiple times, you may look at the top 3 cards, rearange them, then look at the (same) top 3 cards again.

    B)If you add a objeck to the stack it (cast a spell or activate an ability) you will always receive priority again, no matter during which step you cast the spell. However it is assumed you pass priority, unless you explicit tell otherwise. If you cast a spell and say the words "I keep priority" but your opponent still casts a spell, his casting is a game rule violation and a judge will most likely instruct him to take the card back to his hand and untap any lands.

    C)You are right.
    If you ask your opponent whether he wants to respond, you pass priority to him. If he answers hehas no responses your spell will resolve! Neither of you will get a chance to respond to your spell.

    D) If you cast two or more spells at once and all but one of them are instant, it is assumed you did pass priority between each spell. This is an official shortcut. If your opponent wants to respond to the first spell, all other spells are reversed.
    If you cast two sorceries (or creatures, artifacts etc.) at once, this is a game rule violation. The judge will find out which spell was cast first and will return the other to its owners hand (or wherever the spell was, bevore casting) and in most cases untap the appropriate lands. The game continues (see B), your opponent will get priority to respond to the first spell.

    E)Your turn ends.
    If you ask your opponent "Do you want to do something?" you clearly pass priority. If he answers "No" he passes priority right back. If both players pass priority the current step ends.

    F)If your opponent casts something during any of your steps, you will receive priority to respond. After the spell resolves you will receive priority again. If your opponent does not give you any time to react you should call a judge who will decide whether it is safe to back the game up and undo your opponent's untapping, drawing and anything else he might have done.

    I hope I answered all of your questions. Otherwise feel free to ask for clarity or go to the DCI DOcument Center and read Tournament Rules, paragraph 4.2 Tournament Shortcuts.

  3. #3

    Re: "in response", "at the end of turn"

    Since all your questions involve priority, I'll just explain how priority and the stack work.
    Whenever a spell is cast, an ability is activated, or a player enters the next step, the active player is given priority, the active player being the person who played a spell or ability or entered a step last. Then, when the active player has no more responses he passes the priority. Here's a common example from Death and Taxes:

    Player 1 activates Mangara of Corondor's ability and puts it on the stack.
    Mangara's ability

    Since he's the active player, he has priority. In response, he activates Karakas' ability and puts it on the stack.
    Stack: Mangara's ability, karakas' ability

    He is still the active player, so he still has priority. He then announces "no more responses" or "pass priority."

    Now player 2 has priority, and he is the active player until he passes priority. He decides to stifle Mangara's ability, so he casts stifle and puts it on the stack.
    Stack: Mangara's ability, Karakas' ability, stifle

    He is still the active player, so he has priority. He then announces "pass priority."

    Player 1 now has priority and is the active player. He also announces "no responses."

    The stack is emptied in reverse order.
    Stack: Mangara's ability, karakas' ability, stifle

    Stifle resolves, targeting Mangara's ability and removing it from the stack.
    Stack: Karakas' ability

    Karakas' ability resolves, bouncing Mangara.

    That's basically how priority and the stack works. Let's try another example, just to be clear. This will be a "counter battle," where player 1 has a scepter-chant lock and player 2 is beginning his turn.

    Player 2 enters upkeep. No responses.

    In response to player 2 entering the upkeep step, player 1 activates Isochron Scepter's ability, creating a copy of Orim's Chant.
    Stack: Scepter's ability

    Player 2 is now the active player. He passes priority.

    Player 1 is now the active player. He passes priority.

    Stack empties. Scepter's ability resolves, putting a copy of Orim's Chant on the stack.
    Stack: Orim's Chant

    Player 2, having activated an ability last, is the active player. He passes priority.

    In response to the copy of Orim's Chant, Player 1 casts counterspell.
    Stack: Orim's Chant, counterspell

    Player 1 passes priority.

    In response to counterspell, Player 2 casts Spell Pierce.
    Stack: Orim's chant, counterspell, spell pierce.

    Player 2 passes priority.

    Having no mana to spend, Player 1 responds to spell pierce by casting Force of Will.
    Stack: Orim's chant, counterspell, spell pierce, force of will

    Player 1 passes priority

    player 2 passes priority.

    Stack Empties.

    Hope that helps!

  4. #4

    Re: "in response", "at the end of turn"

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Hope that helps!
    The sentiment is appreciated, but you need to take into account that per Tournament Rules defined shortcut, a player automatically passes priority when they add something to the stack unless they specifically retain it. Most of what you wrote is unfortunately not technically accurate.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  5. #5
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    Re: "in response", "at the end of turn"

    I am interested in basic mechanic of game, since the shortcuts are sometimes expressed as a rule by the players here.

    That also involves misuse of some cards in attempt to cheat or misunderstanding of some effects of cards. This is most common for the players "with authority" - like the case with the Senseis top, when my opponent claimed that he activated the ability "in response". Also there are other claims like " i did it at the end of turn, you also did some actions at the end of turn, but there is no need to pass priority".

    the differences between rules and the shortcuts defines how the cards really work. Most players here are extremely arrogant and more and more i realize how they use the shortcuts. Example...

    I play Recurring nightmare. The opponent does not have counterspell, but he has Krosan Grip. And plays it instantly targetting the Recurring nightmare.

    He sees the situation shortcutted like this:
    He played the recurring nightmare, so I react on the card when it entered the battlefield. Step by step it is:
    1. He played the recurring nightmare. He did not announce that he retains priority so...
    2. He used the shortcut so he passed the priority to me. I want to shortcut the game so i announce the Krosan grip in advance announcing that i will destroy it as it enters the battlefield.

    Thats just people like to play as fast as possible.

    But the real situation is like:
    a) Recurring nightmare is not in play, so it cant be targeted by krosan grip yet.

    I will explain that fact to the opponent. He accepts, but says that since I have not announced that i keep the priority he has the priority after the Recurring nightmare enters the battlefield and attempt to play krosan grip again.

    b) Then i will explain that I receive priority when any spell resolves because its my main phase and it does nothing to do with the shortcut. Now he accepts that the recurring nightmare is in play, and targetting the Nightmare again, now I have to warn him that i have the priority.

    c) I activate the ability of the Recurring nightmare, while the opponent automatically responds with the krosan grip. Now i havent announced that i keep the priority, but i have to inform him that taking recurring nightmare back on hand is part of cost, not part of ability.

    My opponent plays MTG 10 years. I play Mtg only 2 years.

    Another simplier, but quite bit rules violation is this one:

    I have Oboro in play. Opponent has Reality strobe. Reality strobe is played and he targets the oboro. I tap Oboro and use its bounce ability. He says ok, and he put the reality strobe back to suspend. For some time i was thinking about what he exactly did - however the Reality Strobe should go into graveyard.

    Most players are not aware of the basic mechanism of the game which described HAL, and those who are aware of them are misusing the advance instead of explaining how the game really works. Just imagine how the game differs, when you have players who knows only shortcuts and not the real mechanism.

    Like if the Player1 uses "i play spell and in response i play another spell just after it" instead of saying "i will keep the priority", especially in situation when Player2 is not aware that the mechanic that the player 1 can retain the priority, but he has to announce it first. This leads to misunderstanding of the basic game mechanism and some false claims in game.

    Mostly, I have two kinds of problem.

    1. Player casts something as fast as possible while passing of priority looks like "you dont react..."
    2. Or when the player announces that he wants to react he gets a response "you had your chance to react" even in situations when the "keeping priority" was not announced or in situations when this shortcut does not apply, because actions being taken by players have "sorcery" speed so the stack must cleanup before playing some effects.


    Therefore i am grateful for each detailed explanation (even when it is certain that I am asking 3rd time for the same topic by different question).

    Thaks a lot. I was reading the rules, however starter rulesbooks are useless, and Comprehensive rules are too complex and it is better to see an example instead of a rule.

    Edit:
    The winning condition is many times fact that players are not aware that if it is their main phase they have to announce that they are retaining priority, instead of saying "in reaction on my own spell". Its like... I play Card A, wait some seconds pretending that i am counting mana, opponent reacts before i announce passing of priority (using the well known shortcut) and he reveales a card saying "in reaction i play Spell B", now i say "however i play in reaction Card C just after Card A". Now comes to play how arrogant can I be especially when the stack order matters.

    If the opponent says "you did not announced that you will keep the priority" I will respond in a manner like "sorry I forget". Or i say "sorry i did not passed the priority, wait a second" however the possible response was just revealed. Then i allow him to take the card back to hand. Those practice is however too often, so In short time i will start to say some basic rules before i start any game, only to be sure that player is aware of the rules...

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