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Thread: Non-Survival Ooze

  1. #21

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Plus, Ooze doesn't have Haste, which is a huge downside when going the tapped ability route. Trickbind isn't that bad, though, since you just win on their upkeep instead.

    Anyway, I'm planning on bringing this to a small event on Sunday. I'll post how it does then.

  2. #22

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Quote Originally Posted by Jander78 View Post
    How about Chains for grave hate and/or splashing green for Nature's Claim, as a catch all answer.




    edit:\
    It looks like your maindeck have been tuned well. Although the manabase might need some work ;) Here's what I am testing:
    2 Crystal Vein
    7 Fetchlands
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Swamp

    I substituted Crystal Vein for Traitors because opening hands with a single fetch+Brainstorm is often screwed by drawing a City of Traitors. Crystal Vein doesn’t blow up when you drop lands. You can reuse it until you really need . I cut it to 2 since drawing a second colorless land sucks.

    Added a 7th fetch to help brainstorm filter, changed a Swamp to Sea. I find that a blue source is important for cantrips and tutor spells early in the game. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by death; 10-23-2010 at 11:33 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    How about Chains for grave hate and/or splashing green for Nature's Claim, as a catch all answer.
    Chain of Vapor is a fine substitute for bounce. I chose Echoing Truth to handle multiple copies of cards (i.e. Leyline / Pithing Needle) and Eye of Nowhere because it can be tutored via Personal Tutor.

    Right now, the manabase is way too fragile to handle splashing a third color. If you reworked both the MD and mana base you could possibly fit an additional color, but I wouldn't risk the stability of a 2 color manabase for the flexibility of an additional color.

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    edit:\
    It looks like your maindeck have been tuned well. Although the manabase might need some work ;) Here's what I am testing:
    2 Crystal Vein
    7 Fetchlands
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Swamp

    I substituted Crystal Vein for Traitors because opening hands with a single fetch+Brainstorm is often screwed by drawing a City of Traitors. Crystal Vein doesn’t blow up when you drop lands. You can reuse it until you really need . I cut it to 2 since drawing a second colorless land sucks.

    Added a 7th fetch to help brainstorm filter, changed a Swamp to Sea. I find that a blue source is important for cantrips and tutor spells early in the game. Hope this helps.
    The only advantage I see for Crystal Vein is to resolve Brainstorm and Personal Tutor through Daze, otherwise Crystal Vein doesn't help you cast any of your enables as they all require colored mana. Buried Alive and Show and Tell are the only cards you cast that require colorless mana. If you have a hand with Fetchland + City, I wouldn't play the City until I'm ready to cast either of those cards (or if I fear Daze) since it's not going to help you assemble your combo.

    Also, you want two Swamp. They are needed against non-basic hate to cast Buried Alive / Reanimate within the same turn.
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  4. #24

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    I ended up going 1-2 in the event I went to yesterday. The list I played was:

    1 Necrotic Ooze
    1 Phyrexian Devourer
    1 Triskelion

    1 Putrid Imp

    1 Inkwell Leviathan

    3 Reanimate
    3 Exhume

    4 Buried Alive
    2 Lim-Dul's Vault

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm

    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Duress
    1 Eye of Nowhere

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    2 Swamp
    2 Island
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Marsh Flats

    SB:
    1 Blazing Archon
    2 Necrotic Ooze
    3 Wipe Away
    4 Echoing Truth
    2 Deathmark
    3 Pithing Needle

    I didn't take enough notes to do a full write-up, but here's what I can tell from what I wrote-down/remember.

    Round 1: Merfolk
    Game 1, he keeps a hand where his only lands are Mutavault and Wasteland. I take four damage from Mutavault, then Thoughtseize him on my turn 3 and take his Force of Will, and then combo off. I board in Blazing Archon, a Wipe Away, and 3 Pithing Needles. He plays turn 1 Vial, and I play turn 1 pithing needle to stop the vial. I manage to cast Buried Alive, but can't draw a reanimation spell and get beat down by Lord of Atlantis and Coralhelm Commander. Game 3, it's my turn to be mana-screwed, and again I'm beatdown.

    Round 2: Burn
    Game 1, he knocks me down a few life points and I combo out fairly quick. I take out the Thoughtseizes for Pithing Needles and an Echoing Truth. Game 2, I draw a nuts hand that lets me combo on turn 2. He shows me that he had a Tormod's Crypt in hand, but I did have the single Eye of Nowhere in my hand, so I would have just needed to wait until I had the right amount of mana to bounce it and combo off.

    Round 3: Eva Green
    I don't remember too much about this game other than he Maelstrom Pulsed my Chrome Mox which left me 1 mana short of comboing off. I board out some discard for Echoing Truths and Needles. Game 2, I draw the turn 1 win, but he thoughtseizes the Buried Alive from my hand. I topdeck another Buried Alive on my turn 2 and win. Game 3, I go for the combo fairly quickly, but he extirpates my Necrotic Ooze in repose the the Reanimate. I manage to reanimate my Inkwell Leviathan, but he has a Nighthawk that he leaves untapped to block. After several turns of draw-go, he Edicts me, and swings for the win.

    Ponder was a pretty terrible replacement for Personal Tutor, and it cost me game 2 against Merfolk and a game against Eva Green. I managed to trade for a playset after the tournament, though. I'll be taking the new build to a larger event on Saturday, so I'm hoping the inclusion of Personal Tutor will help.

  5. #25

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze


  6. #26

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Congrats on your finish! I knew from the start finding those Tutors will change everything. I've been goldfishing a list for about a week now and I have never found a more synergistic application for Personal Tutors. I was pretty nervous about your manabase and I'm not quite sold on the Chrome Moxes but hey, they worked for you!

    I have a few questions for you though,
    1. How does Putrid Imp perform compare to say Careful Study?
    2. Choosing Inky instead of Iona, would the results vary otherwise?
    3. Has the single Eye ever been useful game 1s/ feels like a dead card?

    Regarding your sb, I find the 2 Deathmarks redundant with a set of Echoing Truths. I imagine it would be great against Iona but why didn't you board it in against Sur?

  7. #27

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Thanks. Yeah, Personal Tutors really pull the deck together, they're just too perfect here. I played the Chrome Mox pretty much as a budget choice the week before since I didn't own the City of Traitors and couldn't get them in time, but after testing them in that tournament, I ended up really liking them since they tap for colored mana, so I kept them in over the Cities for this event.

    To address your questions:
    1. Putrid Imp is far more efficient than Careful Study for discarding Triskelions and Devourers. Using Careful Study, you need a Personal Tutor to find it (usually), then need to wait a turn, so it costs you two mana and a turn. Putrid Imp allows you to just cast Buried Alive like normal and put P.Imp in place of the card in your hand, so you don't need any additional cards or mana. If I used the counter-suite rather than discard, which I'm still considering, I'd probably play Aquamoeba.

    2. Inkwell vs. Iona is something I've really been debating about. I only go the Reanimator route rather than the necrotic Ooze route in two situations. The first is if I draw the nuts hand with an Inkwell, Reanimate and Putrid Imp (or some variant of this). This happened much more than I expected at the tournament, and in this situation Iona would probably be better. In fact, game 1 against New Horizons and possibly game 1 against Survival, I probably would have won if it were Iona instead of Inkwell. The second reason I'd go that route, though, is if my opponent has shut me off the Ooze combo with something like Extirpate or Faerie Macabre. In that scenario, it's probably later in the game, and Iona would be less impressive. Though, that situation never happened in the tournament, as opposed to the first one that happened quite a few times. I probably will end up playing Iona maindeck, and probably move Inkwell to the board with 2 Show and Tells.

    3. So far, I haven't needed to use the Eye. Though, if top 4 did play out, I could see it being useful at bouncing a Humility in the Landstill match. I also didn't get paired against any Trinket Mage/Enlightened Tutor decks, but since they sometimes have a maindeck Pithing Needle or Relic, I do like having an out to them. When I played Storm combo, pre-mystical banning, I always included a single Wipe Away as an out to CB, and this is along the same thought. So yeah, it's probably a dead card most of the time, but having the option may be more a playstyle thing than anything else.

    Yeah, the Deathmarks are redundant, and I'd probably cut them if I get the Show and Tells. The only creature I really thought about them being useful against was Meddling Mage, but now that you mention Iona, I probably should have brought them in against Survival. That entire match was full of play mistakes on my part, to be honest.

  8. #28
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Hi Jamis,

    first congratulations!

    Second, I was trying this deck to work but it didnt that well for me as it did for you. My opponents were mulliganing G2/3 for the grave hate and it became quite hard to beat it (backed up by countermagic/discard). What do you propose for the Show and Tell package? It is quite easy to do it in Reanimator as it plays 7 creatures, but here it seems hard...
    Im from Czech Republic, so be patient with my english!

  9. #29
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    hey guys, is the Bg version or a BU version without Personal Tutor possible? Because I can't afford the personal tutors.

  10. #30

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Quote Originally Posted by addaro View Post
    Hi Jamis,

    first congratulations!

    Second, I was trying this deck to work but it didnt that well for me as it did for you. My opponents were mulliganing G2/3 for the grave hate and it became quite hard to beat it (backed up by countermagic/discard). What do you propose for the Show and Tell package? It is quite easy to do it in Reanimator as it plays 7 creatures, but here it seems hard...
    I haven't tested the SnT package yet, so I don't know how well this would work, but I was thinking having 3 targets postboard, with 2-3 Show And Tells. I'd probably move LDV up to 3, as that's how I'd be tutoring for the creatures. Again, I haven't tested it though, so I don't know if this would be enough or if more sideboard slots would be needed to make it work. Really, the more I think about it, I'd be moving towards the list Jander posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeezay View Post
    hey guys, is the Bg version or a BU version without Personal Tutor possible? Because I can't afford the personal tutors.
    I played a BU version of this about 2 weeks ago and it really didn't work. You could try it with a different tutor such as Beeseech the Queen, but I'm not sure if it would slow down your clock too much to still be able to beat fast aggro.

  11. #31
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Yeah well that is basically the list that everyone and me was trying in the first thread. I find it quite brutal if opponent cant blow your graveyard right now, but when it came to fighting all those crypts and relics and leylines it became quite difficult. Thats why we all used the Reanimator shell and just swaped Entomb/Buried Alive, 7 creatures + 1 SnT/4 creatures and 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Careful Study/ 4 Personal Tutors. Thats it. If you stay with the 3 color 14 land mana base you even get Natures Ruin and Xantid Swarm from the SB.
    Im from Czech Republic, so be patient with my english!

  12. #32
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Hey jamis built pretty the same deck with a few differences, go to thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?19242- and go to page two where I updated the list
    greetz Kirby

  13. #33
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Ok I would like to start of with a hearty pat on the back for jamis, jander and company for inspiring me to get of my fat ass (but very skinny wallet) to purchase and build this deck. Great work on the deck! My version is full on show and tell after board as fighting tormod's crypt is hard, fighting extirpate is impossible.

    The list:

    Combo Pieces: 14

    4 Reanimate:
    2 Exhume
    4 Buried Alive
    1 Necrotic Ooze
    1 Aquamoeba
    1 Trisk
    1 Devourer

    Tutors and draw: 14
    4 Lim Dul's Vault
    2 Personal Tutor
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    Disruption: 7
    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize

    Acceleration: 9
    3 Lotus Petal
    3 Dark Ritual
    3 Chrome Mox

    Lands: 16
    4 U Sea
    4 Delta
    1 Flooded
    1 Misty
    1 Mire
    1 Catacombs
    2 Island
    2 Swamp

    SB:
    4 Show and Tell
    4 Emrakul
    2 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    3 Daze- Loose slot, open to suggestions
    1 Wipe away/Chain of vapor/bounce- suggestions?

    Firstly, I really prefer the Force of will versions because force is the best disruption spell, and its free to cast/ reactive which is very important. Another glaring difference is the tutor package, which runs 4 LDV and only 2 personal tutor. I use this package as personal tutor is sucky after boarding into show and tell. After goldfishing/ testing with this list against many fast aggro decks (even gobbos with wasteland), The extra 1 mana for LDV was not a problem. I was always 1.5 turns ahead when on the play and about 1 turn ahead when on the draw (due to the extra card giving me more dig).

    I intially tried the reanimator SB, but grave hate is still a bitch. You also have to fight all those extra spell pierces etc from the board and you die an ugly death. Them (blue): In 3 Grave hate, 3 Spell pierce- This is what I assume most blue decks will bring in, or something similar, you : - 1 tutor, -1 Cantrip, -2 lotus petals, + 2 Reanimator targets, + show and tell + bounce. Basically they bring it plenty of active cards but you have to bring in shitty alternate combos to survive a tormod's crypt/relic. I found that post board I simply could not win against blue with a similar kind of +6 active cards SB plan.

    Thus I play a totally different combo deck postboard with ALL grave related cards out (14) and 14 cards in to transform into a fully functional show and tell deck with ZERO dead cards. Everything that was used to find the buried alive/reanimate combo works on show and tell too (LDV/personal) while LDV finds emrakul. With 8 Cantrips, assembling the combo is very easy. Honestly, the show and tell combo is more compact as you are -6 combo components (no aquamoeba, ooze, trisk, devourer, no exhume) while show and tell is swapped with reanimate and emrakul replaces buried alive. Its also easier to cast as show and tell is just 3 mana while exhume/reanimate + buried alive is 4/5 mana. With that free 6 slots, you can fit in 2 Duress, 1 thoughtseize and 3 Daze for ALOT of extra protection. With a disruption package of 4 Force, 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Duress, 3 Daze (which they did not see and don't know about after G1), you can blow past alot of countermagic while dodging grave hate.

    Only down side is: You are now vulnerable to jace, o-ring, karakas, ensnaring bridge, humility etc etc etc. The combo is also no longer insta kill, so you CAN be raced. However its a fair trade off. I'm not too worried about the hate cards that are >2 mana, as you have so much discard/counters, you should be able to blow past them. I'd always bring show and tell package in game 2 to dodge hate. If I lose G2 and do not reveal any combo components, I'll still go show and tell G3. If I reveal my trick, I'll shuffle my whole sideboard in and make my opponent guess. At this stage I will make the choice of show and tell/necrotic based on what my opponent is playing. If blue, I'll always play show and tell, having + 6 more live cards is more important than being slightly faster. If against aggro, I'll stick to necrotic ooze combo and -1 lotus petal, -1 ponder, -1 LDV to go + 2 duress + 1 thoughtseize. You should be on the play and your 6 discard spells + 4 force should be able to nab their crypts before they land.
    Last edited by ivanpei; 11-08-2010 at 07:07 PM.

  14. #34

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    2 PT is meh. Additional P. Tutors can fetch Thoughtsieze just in case you have both the discard outlet and combo piece in your hand with no brainstorm. And how many times do you feel you would ever cast Moeba? If cmc is now irrelevant since you already disregarded P. Imp, may I suggest Cephalid Inkshrouder.

  15. #35
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    If you don't play force, putrid imp is a good choice as it can chump a lacky/ dude. Aquamoeba being blue is useful because it pitches to force and also can be cast to hold off a lackey when on the play or a kird ape/loam liom/steppe lynx. Being 2 cc is quite relevant actually. I already explained why I play only 2 personal tutor. I understand sacrificing a bit of maindeck speed for SB tech is unconventional, but I feel that the slight hit in G1 speed (which you most probably will be winning) is ok for better games 2 and 3. P.tutor -> thoughtseize yourself is a really poor play, you are basically -3 ing your self. In that case I would rather be LDV-ing for a brainstorm...

    Edit: LDV is also a much better overall tutor. It can find "good bounce" like chain of vapor, echoing truth or wipe away (I prefer wipeaway). Post board LDV is definitely > personal. Pre board, personal is slightly better, but I've found that the narrowness is quite a pain at times. Due to the combo being mana intensive I've found that LDV for missing combo component + acceleration to be game winning at times. Its quite common to be able to "double tutor" with LDV. I'm happy with the tutor package I'm running right now.

  16. #36

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    I like the list. I'm not sure about Ponder over extra protection such as Pact, but I guess I could see the extra dig being useful, especially post-board.

    I'm really weary about just the two Personal Tutors. I could see a 3/3 split between Tutor and LDV, but I really have a hard time not justifying Personal Tutor as a 4-of. I don't think it's as dead post-board, though, as it still finds Show and Tells, but I do agree that LDV is really what you want.

    Anyway, now that a list has more or less been figured out, I'll start working on a proper Primer for the deck. I've been pretty busy lately, so I'll probably keep it very brief, but after I edit the OP if Jander, Ivanpei or anyone else who has been working on the deck wants to add to it, just send me a PM and I'll edit it in.

    edit: updated the OP. I wasn't really sure what to use as the sample decklist, so I tried to combine what everyone was playing. Let me know of any changes that should be made.
    Last edited by jamis; 11-08-2010 at 01:44 PM.

  17. #37
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeezay View Post
    hey guys, is the Bg version or a BU version without Personal Tutor possible? Because I can't afford the personal tutors.
    Maybe you could try a BR version with Burning Wish ^^
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  18. #38

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    It's probably too slow, but has anyone tried Gifts Ungiven -> Putrid Imp, Necrotic Ooze, Triskelion, Phyrexian Devourer would work if you have reanimation in hand.

  19. #39
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    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    I agree that personal tutor is better than LDV if you are playing straight up ooze and maybe just a small show and tell SB plan. I have tested totally switching the deck around post board and the show and tell deck really can't function well without 4 LDV. Its an evil that we have to live with though. I think I might cut 1 LDV main for personal and put a LDV in the board instead of wipeaway. I realised that if I were playing against counterbalance, show and tell is really hard to catch with counterbalance, being 3cc and all. Cheers!

    EDIT: Just looked at OP, looks good, very solid. Good work! I've been really liking the 4 ponders maindeck though. I goldfished over 100 times yesterday and ponder was one of the best cards to draw. Though I'm skimping on protection G1 to have more consistency, I realize I don't always play against blue. I wanted to make sure I go off consistently by turn 3 vs aggro. Even against blue, with 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Force and 8 cantrips + 6 tutors, I can play a very slow roll game to ruin my opponents hand first before going for it. Just a heads up, I think 11 protection is overkill, I prefer 7/8. Also I'm not running pact because of postboarding in to show and tell where pact is terrible. Cheers.

  20. #40

    Re: Non-Survival Ooze

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    It's probably too slow, but has anyone tried Gifts Ungiven -> Putrid Imp, Necrotic Ooze, Triskelion, Phyrexian Devourer would work if you have reanimation in hand.
    In a competitive setting, the meta is considerably fast and games wouldn't last long for you to combo out with Gifts+Exhume (assuming you can't Reanimate due to low life points)

    Against very slow clocks, Gifts can pull the trick, but with mystical out, you'd be relying only on LDV. If you have LDV, you'd probably be vaulting for BA anyway.

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