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Thread: Survival of the Fittest

  1. #1
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    Survival of the Fittest

    I was just watching/listening to the coverage of the SCG open tonight. During the finals, and possibly before, Evan Erwin was calling for the banning of Survival of the Fittest. Personally, I think he is overreacting and the metagame hasn't adjusted for it yet.

    Anyone else have thoughts on the topic?
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  2. #2

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    a resolved survival pretty much means gg right?

  3. #3
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    The UG Madness deck is very good, as it is very fast. But, with proper sideboarding and deck construction, it can be thwarted. It is a graveyard based deck, as we know, there's a piece of hate or two for that.

    I think if it still dominates the meta to a point where nothing can compete, then I think they need to ban (if they feel they have to ban something) a card, then ban Vengevine.

    Survival isn't broken without Vengevine, and allows for many other strategies in the format. Bant Survival, RGBSA, and many other builds aren't as fast as Vengevine Survival.

    In essence, don't ban Survival if a banning needs to happen. Don't take out 10+ deck with one swoop, take out 1.

    -Matt

  4. #4

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    I agree, but lets be honest they are not going to ban a card they just printed. I was chatting with a friend and we both agree that survival seems better then reanimator or Ant ever was.

  5. #5

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    The UG Madness deck is very good, as it is very fast. But, with proper sideboarding and deck construction, it can be thwarted. It is a graveyard based deck, as we know, there's a piece of hate or two for that.

    I think if it still dominates the meta to a point where nothing can compete, then I think they need to ban (if they feel they have to ban something) a card, then ban Vengevine.

    Survival isn't broken without Vengevine, and allows for many other strategies in the format. Bant Survival, RGBSA, and many other builds aren't as fast as Vengevine Survival.

    In essence, don't ban Survival if a banning needs to happen. Don't take out 10+ deck with one swoop, take out 1.

    -Matt
    This is basically it, but Wizards would most likely ban Survival anyway because it's a "combo engine" that "can't be used fairly" and "crushes scrubs in the MTGO casual room."

    The other issue is that Vengevine Survival decks don't really care about graveyard hate. If you don't hate the yard, they Fireball you with Vengevines; if you do hate the yard, they use Survival to turn low-end guys into high-end guys and beat you down normally. The only way to effectively hate the deck is to hate Survival.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by SlopeeJ View Post
    I was chatting with a friend and we both agree that survival seems better then reanimator or Ant ever was.
    No, it's just more difficult to hate correctly while being more flexible and forgiving than either of those decks.

  6. #6
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by SlopeeJ View Post
    I agree, but lets be honest they are not going to ban a card they just printed. I was chatting with a friend and we both agree that survival seems better then reanimator or Ant ever was.
    they have banned cards they just printed before. In fact they have pre-emptively banned one card before its official release date if memory serves.
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Any time a new thing happens people call for bannings. This will just shift the meta a little bit. Cards that will see more play:

    1. Pithing Needle. People will realize that, hey, Pithing Needle is amazing, to the point of being maindeckable in a world where every deck ever packs some combination of Survival, Vial, Fetchlands, Wasteland, Top, Belcher, Knight of the Reliquary, etc.

    2. Ethersworn Canonist. Stops Vengevine combo cold. This will only last until people start packing a single Memnite, but for the moment it works.

    3. Peacekeeper. Apparently.

    4. Spell Pierce/Spell Snare. Yes, I'm actually calling Spell Pierce underrun. Snare's solid as ever, too.

    5. Nature's Claim and Revoke Existence. Nature's Claim -might- be better than Krosan Grip in modern Legacy. Revoke Existence is white's neato cousin.

    There's probably plenty more, too.

    EDIT: Also, props to my boy Mike Fyrberg for Top 8'ing. Seems like somebody from our crew does it every time there's one down here.

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    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  8. #8

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    No, it's just more difficult to hate correctly while being more flexible and forgiving than either of those decks.
    This is probably true. I believe one of main things that people were saying about the banning of mystical tutor was that those decks weren't really dominating the top 8s while Survival has been.

    I'm not sure I agree 100% it needs banning, but banning the vengevines would be better. And Aggro Zombie is right, if you stop the yard they just win with 4/3 haste for 4 mana. It pretty much is they resolve survial or lose. Also with surival you can get a pretty constant turn 4 Iona/Emrakul

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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by SlopeeJ View Post
    Also with surival you can get a pretty constant turn 4 Iona/Emrakul
    Unless the Loyal Retainer is in play at the exact time you survival up an Emrakul... you are not getting a turn 4 Emrakul. So I wouldn't say that is consistant at all.

    On the other hand a Turn 4 Iona off the back of Survival is definitely consistent.

    As for adding Vengevine or Survival to the Banned List, I am not personally convinced that the deck is all that broken. There are so many ways to stop the combo, Qasali Pridemage, Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, any Creature Removal (for the creatures that enable the combo), and well the list just goes on. And most decks pack at least one or two different options for stopping the combo. So it really shouldn't be that problematic.
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  10. #10

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    The UG Madness deck is very good, as it is very fast. But, with proper sideboarding and deck construction, it can be thwarted. It is a graveyard based deck, as we know, there's a piece of hate or two for that.

    I think if it still dominates the meta to a point where nothing can compete, then I think they need to ban (if they feel they have to ban something) a card, then ban Vengevine.

    Survival isn't broken without Vengevine, and allows for many other strategies in the format. Bant Survival, RGBSA, and many other builds aren't as fast as Vengevine Survival.

    In essence, don't ban Survival if a banning needs to happen. Don't take out 10+ deck with one swoop, take out 1.

    -Matt

    Even with GY hate, it's hard to beat the deck. They can simply transform into NO Pro and steam roll you after you mull into GY hate post board. The deck just wrecks you either way.

    I know banning SotF will hurt even players with different builds but Venge-Sur is the most consistent and broken, there's no reason not to play it.

    Besides, Survival is highly non-interactive. Casting it and dealing 16+ damage the same turn without any drawback seems so unfair.

  11. #11

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    I agree if they were to ban a card they shouldn't ban survival they should ban the vengevine; old school survival advantage is not broken by any means. Or any aggro control list of survival for that matter. Vengevine survival is ridiculously good but not unbeatable by any means. There is plenty of hate for it in the current format namely pithing needle naming survival is great. Also, if mystical tutor got unbanned, I'm pretty sure vengevine survival couldn't compete with ANT. ANT beats VV survival cold with mystical tutor.
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  12. #12

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Unless the Loyal Retainer is in play at the exact time you survival up an Emrakul... you are not getting a turn 4 Emrakul. So I wouldn't say that is consistant at all.

    On the other hand a Turn 4 Iona off the back of Survival is definitely consistent
    .
    ah yea exactly. survival the retainer on turn 3.... Caste on turn 4 with your one mana then survival for Iona/Emrakul.... Seems pretty good, esp one turn earlier with Noble Hierarch.

    No one is saying there isn't answers to an enchantment with an activated ability, this is Legacy there are answers to everything. Listing the answers doesn't really say much and doesn't prove that a card is or isn't broken, esp saying you need 4 swords in hand to beat the 16 damage coming at you.


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  13. #13
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    I don't think anything needs banning. However, if things do get out of hand, then like others have said, Survival isn't the problem, Vengevine is.
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Answering a Vengevine deck is easy enough to do. What you have to be able to do is answer it before it goes off.

    To that end you also need to be able to answer its transformational sideboard, for which there are now plenty of good answers to that as well.
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  15. #15

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Has Survival of the Fittest ever been a problem for the Legacy metagame before this deck? In short, no. It has been used in a variety of decks and archetypes, none ever coming close to Goblins in prevalence.

    Is vengevival so good that it can't be sideboarded against? In short, no. Above-mentioned options are completely relevant and valid ways to take care of vengevival.

    I agree with Aggro-Zombies in that the only real reason for banning the card is Wizards' preoccupation of making the format more "fun" for those who aren't ready to play the streamlined and efficient game that is competitive legacy. However, I don't think this would happen until Vengevine rotates out of Standard because Wizards finally has a valid way to pump Legacy players for actual profit (in the form of booster packs). Once Wizards reaches their return on investment they might ban the card that makes them no money over the card that does make them money (even though one breaks the deck and another does not).

    To the player referencing the Memory Jar preemptive banning. That was done in an entirely different context than the proposed banning of Survival of the fittest.

    And, as a humorous note to myself: I think it would be funny if a card named "Survival of the Fittest" was banned because it is too strong.

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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Tacosnape said everything, play Pithing Needle. Please don't ban Survival, banning Vengevine seems better.

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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous Druid View Post
    To the player referencing the Memory Jar preemptive banning. That was done in an entirely different context than the proposed banning of Survival of the fittest.
    I am fully aware that there are different contexts for each banning Wizards has ever done. The recent banning of Mystical Tutor should make that extremely apparent.

    HOWEVER, my statement with regard to the memory jar pre-emptive banning was in response to someone who claimed that Wizards would NOT ban Vengevine because it is a brand new card and still in standard. In otherwords I was attempting to point out that along with the Affinity Deck's primary cards that have been banned both in Standard, Extended, AND Block Formats during its time in each of those formats Memory Jar was also banned not only when it was brand new, but prior to its existence in any format.

    I was just pointing out that Wizards apparently has no objection to banning a card regardless of its age.
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  18. #18

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    If Venge-Sur is still not "out of hand" yet, and "easy to handle" even post board like you guys suggested, with all the tech you mentioned against it, then why did it just topped 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 12th in a 200+ attendance tourney? Outperforming heavy control decks (Counterbalance, Landstill), pure aggro (Goblins, Zoo) and combo (AnT).

    edit: The deck has been highly anticipated ever since it's debut in GP Columbus, so it's safe to say it did not "flew under the radar" and people came prepared for it. Not surprisingly, Dredge another GY-deck is nowhere in the Top 15.

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    Pithing Needle, Qasali, Nature's Claim >> Daze, FoW
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  19. #19

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin View Post
    I am fully aware that there are different contexts for each banning Wizards has ever done. The recent banning of Mystical Tutor should make that extremely apparent.

    HOWEVER, my statement with regard to the memory jar pre-emptive banning was in response to someone who claimed that Wizards would NOT ban Vengevine because it is a brand new card and still in standard. In otherwords I was attempting to point out that along with the Affinity Deck's primary cards that have been banned both in Standard, Extended, AND Block Formats during its time in each of those formats Memory Jar was also banned not only when it was brand new, but prior to its existence in any format.

    I was just pointing out that Wizards apparently has no objection to banning a card regardless of its age.
    I agree with you on all the facts, just merely the interpretation. Memory Jar's banning was a one-time, unique event in Magic and a response to Wizards actually saying: "we done fucked up." Affinity in Standard and the un-errated Flash might be a better analogy from which to draw. Both the aforementioned were severely warping a given format by making all other archetypes essentially unplayable. Vengevival is doing no such thing, regardless of its age. I just found Memory Jar a poor analogy with those considerations.

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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous Druid View Post
    I agree with you on all the facts, just merely the interpretation. Memory Jar's banning was a one-time, unique event in Magic and a response to Wizards actually saying: "we done fucked up." Affinity in Standard and the un-errated Flash might be a better analogy from which to draw. Both the aforementioned were severely warping a given format by making all other archetypes essentially unplayable. Vengevival is doing no such thing, regardless of its age. I just found Memory Jar a poor analogy with those considerations.
    fair enough, I was just making a straight mention of the facts with regards to them banning cards that are new or pre-new.
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