Page 2 of 43 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 841

Thread: Survival of the Fittest

  1. #21

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    You could play Jar for a few weeks, it was "just" emergency banned. :)

  2. #22
    I am the Killer Rabbit!
    DalkonCledwin's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2007
    Location

    Allen, TX
    Posts

    406

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadweight View Post
    If Venge-Sur is still not "out of hand" yet, and "easy to handle" even post board like you guys suggested, with all the tech you mentioned against it, then why did it just topped 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 12th in a 200+ attendance tourney? Outperforming heavy control decks (Counterbalance, Landstill), pure aggro (Goblins, Zoo) and combo (AnT).
    I can think of a few reasons it out performed both Dreadstill and Landstill. For one thing it tends to be faster than either of those decks (especially landstill). There are a few other reasons that probably contributed there, but most of them are hypothetical and I prefer not to be hypothetical. As for Goblins and Zoo, it depends on if those two types of decks were really built to handle Vengevival or not. Goblins most of all of the two I can think of not being built to handle it as it is especially dependant on its color base. As far as ANT goes, that depends, is SCG's still classifying all storm decks as Ad Nauseam Tendril even if they aren't? Because not all storm decks are built to handle Vengevival or even capable of being built to handle it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grollub View Post
    You could play Jar for a few weeks, it was "just" emergency banned. :)
    Ah, I was under the impression that it had been banned prior to it's actual release, but just read the article about the actual banning which says it was indeed an emergency ban. Thanks for keeping me informed :D
    "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."

  3. #23

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadweight View Post
    If Venge-Sur is still not "out of hand" yet, and "easy to handle" even post board like you guys suggested, with all the tech you mentioned against it, then why did it just topped 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 12th in a 200+ attendance tourney? Outperforming heavy control decks (Counterbalance, Landstill), pure aggro (Goblins, Zoo) and combo (AnT).
    Out of curiosity (not being inflammatory, I just don't know), which event are you referring and what percentages of control archetypes were actually present?

    Playing Landstill I have 10 maindeck answers to Survival on the play or draw in the form of:
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Spell Snare

    and 4 Sideboard slots devoted to Extirpate. Sometimes I also run Stifle depending on the metagame.

    Deeds and EE clear the bears they play, and I can usually survive long enough to get them. Sure, they got Force, Daze, etc., but they still have to have a pretty nuts hand to have answers and combo pieces to reliably do everything they want on turn 2 and 3 through as much hate as I pack. Sometimes when ANT has the same kind of luck, I can't stop it. Otherwise, it hasn't posed me that much trouble in my testing. I just think people are overreacting to a new and good deck.

  4. #24
    I am the Killer Rabbit!
    DalkonCledwin's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2007
    Location

    Allen, TX
    Posts

    406

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous Druid View Post
    Out of curiosity (not being inflammatory, I just don't know), which event are you referring and what percentages of control archetypes were actually present?
    He is talkiing about Star City Games' Open Series in Nashville. And unfortunately we won't know the percentages of the decks in the field at that event until the Too Much Information Article for that event is published (at least not unless we were a judge or T.O. at the event). What we do know is the top-16 decks.
    "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."

  5. #25

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    The card that was banned before its release was mind's desire when legacy didn't exist because the banned lists hadn't been split yet simply because chaining 1 mind's desire into another mind's desire basically meant GOOD GAME SIR.

    Vengevine got 4 places in the top 16 because the deck is heavily played. Statistically speaking, if more people play a deck then that deck has a higher chance of getting X spots in a top 16 especially if the deck can compete with every other deck in the format. Of course vengevival blows countertop out of the water; turn 2 counterbalance is nothing compared to a turn 2 survival of the fittest turn 3 2 4/3's swinging. Counterbalance is a completely fair card whereas survival of the fittest is an engine card that when active greatly exceeds counterbalance's power.

    The meta will adapt and madness survival will not be OMG LOOK AT THE VENGEVINE'S OMG CAN'T STOP IT PLEASE KILL ME NOW~!~!~!~!~!~!!!!!!!!!!!~! after a few months on the legacy scene the meta will shift to accomodate the deck. I don't believe any card in the madness survival deck needs to be banned.
    Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
    Currently Playing:
    All flavors of storm combo
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix
    Lands is a joke for Solidarity. Its like asking a morbidly obese parapalegic to run the mile with his shoes tied.

  6. #26

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous Druid View Post
    Playing Landstill I have 10 maindeck answers to Survival on the play or draw in the form of:
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Spell Snare

    and 4 Sideboard slots devoted to Extirpate. Sometimes I also run Stifle depending on the metagame.
    I like the confidence you have in Landstill, but you need a hand with an awful-lot of permission spells to handle SotF, Wild Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Jitte, and Natural Order. Not to mention they have their own counterpells in their arsenal also.

  7. #27

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin View Post
    He is talkiing about Star City Games' Open Series in Nashville. And unfortunately we won't know the percentages of the decks in the field at that event until the Too Much Information Article for that event is published (at least not unless we were a judge or T.O. at the event). What we do know is the top-16 decks.
    Thanks for clarifying. I would like to know what decks the Vengevival decks went up against (whether it was unequivocally the best deck or if it benefited from a meta that was ill-prepared or underestimated it). Obviously Zoo, Gobos, and other tribal are a good matchup. Storm-combo.dec and dedicated control probably not so great. Just wondered what people were actually playing.

  8. #28
    I am the Killer Rabbit!
    DalkonCledwin's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2007
    Location

    Allen, TX
    Posts

    406

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadweight View Post
    I like the confidence you have in Landstill, but you need a hand with an awful-lot of permission spells to handle SotF, Wild Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Jitte, and Natural Order. Not to mention they have their own counterpells in their arsenal also.
    not every Vengevival deck runs counterspells. The deck that won the Star City Games Open today was a Green and White Vengevival deck that didn't to my knowledge use a single counterspell.
    "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."

  9. #29

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadweight View Post
    I like the confidence you have in Landstill, but you need a hand with an awful-lot of permission spells to handle SotF, Wild Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Jitte, and Natural Order. Not to mention they have their own counterpells in their arsenal also.
    My point is they must have at least 1-2 threats, 1-2 combo pieces, 1-2 protection AND the land/resources to cast them in hand to start. Use permission on the combo pieces and protection and let inconsequential stuff like underwhelming bears resolve. Eventually, I'll find the sweeper I need with a Wild Mongrel or Aquamoeba clock that this deck imposes. As long as you can keep the survival and/or the vines off the table you can be good. In my testing, I've had enough permission to accomplish that.

  10. #30
    I am the Killer Rabbit!
    DalkonCledwin's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2007
    Location

    Allen, TX
    Posts

    406

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    The top-16 decks were as follows:

    1st: GW Vengevival
    2nd: GU Vengevival
    3rd: Retainer Survival
    4th: Canadian Threshold
    5th: UW Countertop
    6th: GWB Rock
    7th: Ooze Vengevival
    8th: BUG Landstill
    9th: Stiflenaught
    10th: 4c Landstill
    11th: Ad Nauseam Storm (can't think of what else to call it)
    12th: Retainer Survival
    13th: a variation of Eva Green
    14th: BR Goblins
    15th: Mono-Red Goblins
    16th: Dredge
    "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."

  11. #31

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin View Post
    The top-16 decks were as follows:

    1st: GW Vengevival
    2nd: GU Vengevival
    3rd: Retainer Survival
    4th: Canadian Threshold
    5th: UW Countertop
    6th: GWB Rock
    7th: Ooze Vengevival
    8th: BUG Landstill
    9th: Stiflenaught
    10th: 4c Landstill
    11th: Ad Nauseam Storm (can't think of what else to call it)
    12th: Retainer Survival
    13th: a variation of Eva Green
    14th: BR Goblins
    15th: Mono-Red Goblins
    16th: Dredge

    That actually doesn't seem unbalanced to me at all. There are Mid-range, control, and combo decks all represented in the top 16. Sure, there are more survival decks than any other but that seems to always rotate on any given big tournament. Alot of it might depend on each players matchup or the quality of the players playing a given archetype. The only conspicuous absence is Zoo (which folds to vengevival and leads me to believe many people were playing it).

  12. #32

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadweight View Post
    If Venge-Sur is still not "out of hand" yet, and "easy to handle" even post board like you guys suggested, with all the tech you mentioned against it, then why did it just topped 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 12th in a 200+ attendance tourney? Outperforming heavy control decks (Counterbalance, Landstill), pure aggro (Goblins, Zoo) and combo (AnT).

    edit: The deck has been highly anticipated ever since it's debut in GP Columbus, so it's safe to say it did not "flew under the radar" and people came prepared for it. Not surprisingly, Dredge another GY-deck is nowhere in the Top 15.

    re:
    Pithing Needle, Qasali, Nature's Claim >> Daze, FoW
    E. Cannonist >> Shield Sphere, Memnite
    all others >> Natural Order, Progenitus
    The issue here is that Survival could do all of this shit before. Survival builds pre-Columbus could use Natural Order in the sideboard if they wanted, or combo out an Iona or Emrakul if they wanted, etc. The only difference between then and now is the addition of Vengevines.

    The issue with Vengevine is that it gives Survival a Fireball. That allows Survival to close out games that it otherwise might not have won, using its namesake card. This is in addition to the usual bag of tricks Survival decks pack; you can run Vengevines as just one more package alongside your normal bullets and core creatures.

    That's the reason graveyard hate doesn't affect Vengevine Survival decks: Vengevine is "just" one of several plans. Even something like Extirpate to nab all the Vengevines at once doesn't answer the standard beatdown plan, or any other special package the deck might be running. Furthermore, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus suffer from the "dies to maindeck Trygon Predator" syndrome against the Madness builds. Predator is actually really damn hot right now against all of the big decks.

    Banning Survival will wipe out a fairly unique portion of the metagame. Banning Vengevine just makes Survival another Tier II option again.

  13. #33

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Banning Survival will wipe out a fairly unique portion of the metagame. Banning Vengevine just makes Survival another Tier II option again.
    True. But "retainer" and "welder" versions are equally non-interactive and annoying as well.

  14. #34
    Member
    Rune's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2009
    Location

    Denmark
    Posts

    324

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Some thoughts after having played a ton of games with GW Survival and UG Madness:


    Survival can't be hated effectively because if you board too much hate for it, then you will just get beaten down by giant dorks while you sit with your useless hate cards in hand/play, and if you don't board enough hate, then you will just lose to Survival. In addition to that, most "hate" cards are pretty weak/easy to deal with. If the Survival player is smart, Pridemage/Grip/Explosives will never matter since he can just play the enchantment when it is possible to get a few activations out of it before it gets destroyed, and those few activations will often be enough to end the game. Survival decks also play their own Pridemages and Krosan Grips, so any permanent-based hate can easily get blown up. Extirpate is a good hate card, but you need to have it in hand and have B open in order not to die, and even if you remove the Vengevines, you still have to deal with the fact that SotF is now "turn every creature into Goyf/KotR". The standard UG Madness list obviously has issues against cards like Peacekeeper, but it can easily make changes that will deal with those kinds of cards. As many have said, Vengevine is the problem. If it wasn't for Vengevine, you could just blow up the SotF and you would be back in the game, but as it is, you cannot allow the opponent th pour any green mana into the enchantment before you destroy it, otherwise you will be in a lot of trouble.

    The deck (GW Surv) really only has 1 bad matchup: Storm combo. You might think the deck would have problems against pure control, but this isn't really the case. It's too hard for control decks to keep the board clean of troublesome creatures, avoid getting screwed too hard by Wastelands and at the same time also keep up counterspells for SotF. Hardcasted Vengevines are also hard to deal with since they need to be plowed, otherwise they will just keep coming back. Karakas and KotR make the Emrakul combo decks a near bye, and aggro is generally easy because you have a crazy combo and your creatures on their own are just so much better than theirs.

    Survival is like the new ANT of the format, except Survival actually puts more than 1 person in the Top8, is infinitely easier to play and has a very solid backup plan in addition to its main combo. I don't really care if it gets banned or not, but I voted for it in the "most bannable card" thread, and I still think it is. (Technically speaking, it's Vengevine that is the most bannable card, though)
    Last edited by Rune; 10-18-2010 at 10:40 AM. Reason: fixed some wrong stuff

  15. #35

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    That's the reason graveyard hate doesn't affect Vengevine Survival decks: Vengevine is "just" one of several plans. Even something like Extirpate to nab all the Vengevines at once doesn't answer the standard beatdown plan, or any other special package the deck might be running. Furthermore, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus suffer from the "dies to maindeck Trygon Predator" syndrome against the Madness builds. Predator is actually really damn hot right now against all of the big decks.
    Yeah, I laugh whenever an Extirpater gets killed by Flying mongrels and Rootwallas. It seriously happens way too often!

  16. #36

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadweight View Post
    True. But "retainer" and "welder" versions are equally non-interactive and annoying as well.
    Yes, but they aren't as oppressively good as Vengevine Survival decks, and weren't so even before Vengevine was printed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonius View Post
    Yeah, I laugh whenever an Extirpater gets killed by Flying mongrels and Rootwallas. It seriously happens way too often!
    This is why Extirpate is a bad card.

  17. #37
    Member

    Join Date

    Mar 2010
    Location

    Amsterdam
    Posts

    283

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    I wouldn't mind Vengevine being banned. I think survival should stay unbanned though, as it adds diversity to the format.

  18. #38
    Splitting time between Legacy, EDH and Alterations
    ivanpei's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
    Posts

    1,202

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    IMO survival is NOT broken. I play survival myself and its pretty easy to hate. Grips from the board are in almost everydeck. Spellpierce/spellsnare are also everywhere. The combo also takes up alot of slots and you have to DRAW survival + resolve it + squeeze a few activations out of it. The reason why its appearing in such large numbers is that is is cheap to build (relatively) and most importantly FUN to play as well as being relatively simple to pilot. There is a fledgling legacy community where I play and everybody wants to build some form of vengevine survival. The idea of 16+ damage from vengevine in one turn is such an alluring one.

    The concept is simple, it seems fun, people love tutoring, people love creatures. For people who have played it/played against it, we know exactly how balanced the card is, but for everyone else they just want to do something broken (which legacy is famous for) that they understand. Storm combo/dredge are complicated decks that take alot to master. Most people are puzzled/baffled/intimidated by these more complicated combo decks due to the many interactions they have to learn. Vengevine survival seems like a "safe" combo deck with force of wills, creatures and all around good investment cards like tropical islands etc. My 2 cents.

  19. #39

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    even hard casted vengevines are annoying. 4 hasted damage for 4cc is the fastest slow-roll strategy I can think of.

  20. #40
    Merkwürdigeliebe
    jazzykat's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Vienna, AT
    Posts

    913

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    The answer is obvious, unban mystical. Turn 2 Iona seems more fair now that vengevine and survival have been paired effectively.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)