You could play Jar for a few weeks, it was "just" emergency banned. :)
I can think of a few reasons it out performed both Dreadstill and Landstill. For one thing it tends to be faster than either of those decks (especially landstill). There are a few other reasons that probably contributed there, but most of them are hypothetical and I prefer not to be hypothetical. As for Goblins and Zoo, it depends on if those two types of decks were really built to handle Vengevival or not. Goblins most of all of the two I can think of not being built to handle it as it is especially dependant on its color base. As far as ANT goes, that depends, is SCG's still classifying all storm decks as Ad Nauseam Tendril even if they aren't? Because not all storm decks are built to handle Vengevival or even capable of being built to handle it.
Ah, I was under the impression that it had been banned prior to it's actual release, but just read the article about the actual banning which says it was indeed an emergency ban. Thanks for keeping me informed :D
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Out of curiosity (not being inflammatory, I just don't know), which event are you referring and what percentages of control archetypes were actually present?
Playing Landstill I have 10 maindeck answers to Survival on the play or draw in the form of:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
and 4 Sideboard slots devoted to Extirpate. Sometimes I also run Stifle depending on the metagame.
Deeds and EE clear the bears they play, and I can usually survive long enough to get them. Sure, they got Force, Daze, etc., but they still have to have a pretty nuts hand to have answers and combo pieces to reliably do everything they want on turn 2 and 3 through as much hate as I pack. Sometimes when ANT has the same kind of luck, I can't stop it. Otherwise, it hasn't posed me that much trouble in my testing. I just think people are overreacting to a new and good deck.
He is talkiing about Star City Games' Open Series in Nashville. And unfortunately we won't know the percentages of the decks in the field at that event until the Too Much Information Article for that event is published (at least not unless we were a judge or T.O. at the event). What we do know is the top-16 decks.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
The card that was banned before its release was mind's desire when legacy didn't exist because the banned lists hadn't been split yet simply because chaining 1 mind's desire into another mind's desire basically meant GOOD GAME SIR.
Vengevine got 4 places in the top 16 because the deck is heavily played. Statistically speaking, if more people play a deck then that deck has a higher chance of getting X spots in a top 16 especially if the deck can compete with every other deck in the format. Of course vengevival blows countertop out of the water; turn 2 counterbalance is nothing compared to a turn 2 survival of the fittest turn 3 2 4/3's swinging. Counterbalance is a completely fair card whereas survival of the fittest is an engine card that when active greatly exceeds counterbalance's power.
The meta will adapt and madness survival will not be OMG LOOK AT THE VENGEVINE'S OMG CAN'T STOP IT PLEASE KILL ME NOW~!~!~!~!~!~!!!!!!!!!!!~! after a few months on the legacy scene the meta will shift to accomodate the deck. I don't believe any card in the madness survival deck needs to be banned.
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Originally Posted by Vacrix
Thanks for clarifying. I would like to know what decks the Vengevival decks went up against (whether it was unequivocally the best deck or if it benefited from a meta that was ill-prepared or underestimated it). Obviously Zoo, Gobos, and other tribal are a good matchup. Storm-combo.dec and dedicated control probably not so great. Just wondered what people were actually playing.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
My point is they must have at least 1-2 threats, 1-2 combo pieces, 1-2 protection AND the land/resources to cast them in hand to start. Use permission on the combo pieces and protection and let inconsequential stuff like underwhelming bears resolve. Eventually, I'll find the sweeper I need with a Wild Mongrel or Aquamoeba clock that this deck imposes. As long as you can keep the survival and/or the vines off the table you can be good. In my testing, I've had enough permission to accomplish that.
The top-16 decks were as follows:
1st: GW Vengevival
2nd: GU Vengevival
3rd: Retainer Survival
4th: Canadian Threshold
5th: UW Countertop
6th: GWB Rock
7th: Ooze Vengevival
8th: BUG Landstill
9th: Stiflenaught
10th: 4c Landstill
11th: Ad Nauseam Storm (can't think of what else to call it)
12th: Retainer Survival
13th: a variation of Eva Green
14th: BR Goblins
15th: Mono-Red Goblins
16th: Dredge
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
That actually doesn't seem unbalanced to me at all. There are Mid-range, control, and combo decks all represented in the top 16. Sure, there are more survival decks than any other but that seems to always rotate on any given big tournament. Alot of it might depend on each players matchup or the quality of the players playing a given archetype. The only conspicuous absence is Zoo (which folds to vengevival and leads me to believe many people were playing it).
The issue here is that Survival could do all of this shit before. Survival builds pre-Columbus could use Natural Order in the sideboard if they wanted, or combo out an Iona or Emrakul if they wanted, etc. The only difference between then and now is the addition of Vengevines.
The issue with Vengevine is that it gives Survival a Fireball. That allows Survival to close out games that it otherwise might not have won, using its namesake card. This is in addition to the usual bag of tricks Survival decks pack; you can run Vengevines as just one more package alongside your normal bullets and core creatures.
That's the reason graveyard hate doesn't affect Vengevine Survival decks: Vengevine is "just" one of several plans. Even something like Extirpate to nab all the Vengevines at once doesn't answer the standard beatdown plan, or any other special package the deck might be running. Furthermore, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus suffer from the "dies to maindeck Trygon Predator" syndrome against the Madness builds. Predator is actually really damn hot right now against all of the big decks.
Banning Survival will wipe out a fairly unique portion of the metagame. Banning Vengevine just makes Survival another Tier II option again.
Some thoughts after having played a ton of games with GW Survival and UG Madness:
Survival can't be hated effectively because if you board too much hate for it, then you will just get beaten down by giant dorks while you sit with your useless hate cards in hand/play, and if you don't board enough hate, then you will just lose to Survival. In addition to that, most "hate" cards are pretty weak/easy to deal with. If the Survival player is smart, Pridemage/Grip/Explosives will never matter since he can just play the enchantment when it is possible to get a few activations out of it before it gets destroyed, and those few activations will often be enough to end the game. Survival decks also play their own Pridemages and Krosan Grips, so any permanent-based hate can easily get blown up. Extirpate is a good hate card, but you need to have it in hand and have B open in order not to die, and even if you remove the Vengevines, you still have to deal with the fact that SotF is now "turn every creature into Goyf/KotR". The standard UG Madness list obviously has issues against cards like Peacekeeper, but it can easily make changes that will deal with those kinds of cards. As many have said, Vengevine is the problem. If it wasn't for Vengevine, you could just blow up the SotF and you would be back in the game, but as it is, you cannot allow the opponent th pour any green mana into the enchantment before you destroy it, otherwise you will be in a lot of trouble.
The deck (GW Surv) really only has 1 bad matchup: Storm combo. You might think the deck would have problems against pure control, but this isn't really the case. It's too hard for control decks to keep the board clean of troublesome creatures, avoid getting screwed too hard by Wastelands and at the same time also keep up counterspells for SotF. Hardcasted Vengevines are also hard to deal with since they need to be plowed, otherwise they will just keep coming back. Karakas and KotR make the Emrakul combo decks a near bye, and aggro is generally easy because you have a crazy combo and your creatures on their own are just so much better than theirs.
Survival is like the new ANT of the format, except Survival actually puts more than 1 person in the Top8, is infinitely easier to play and has a very solid backup plan in addition to its main combo. I don't really care if it gets banned or not, but I voted for it in the "most bannable card" thread, and I still think it is. (Technically speaking, it's Vengevine that is the most bannable card, though)
Last edited by Rune; 10-18-2010 at 10:40 AM. Reason: fixed some wrong stuff
I wouldn't mind Vengevine being banned. I think survival should stay unbanned though, as it adds diversity to the format.
IMO survival is NOT broken. I play survival myself and its pretty easy to hate. Grips from the board are in almost everydeck. Spellpierce/spellsnare are also everywhere. The combo also takes up alot of slots and you have to DRAW survival + resolve it + squeeze a few activations out of it. The reason why its appearing in such large numbers is that is is cheap to build (relatively) and most importantly FUN to play as well as being relatively simple to pilot. There is a fledgling legacy community where I play and everybody wants to build some form of vengevine survival. The idea of 16+ damage from vengevine in one turn is such an alluring one.
The concept is simple, it seems fun, people love tutoring, people love creatures. For people who have played it/played against it, we know exactly how balanced the card is, but for everyone else they just want to do something broken (which legacy is famous for) that they understand. Storm combo/dredge are complicated decks that take alot to master. Most people are puzzled/baffled/intimidated by these more complicated combo decks due to the many interactions they have to learn. Vengevine survival seems like a "safe" combo deck with force of wills, creatures and all around good investment cards like tropical islands etc. My 2 cents.
even hard casted vengevines are annoying. 4 hasted damage for 4cc is the fastest slow-roll strategy I can think of.
The answer is obvious, unban mystical. Turn 2 Iona seems more fair now that vengevine and survival have been paired effectively.
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