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Thread: Survival of the Fittest

  1. #41

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Panic claims for banning yet again?

    This is actually getting absurd to me.

    1. Vengevine gets printed in RoE
    2. Someone here points out interaction between Vengevine and Survival of the Fittest
    3. Guy who suggested Vengevine gets laughed at, and its pointed out how Vengevine is too slow, and that Retainers + Iona combo is just better
    4. Nothing happens for almost a year*, then Caleb brings Survival madness to GP and makes top8
    5. Suddenly everyone is playing Survival and Vengevines, and its "most powerfull deck" out there and people start to claim for bans

    When people start playing goblins again, putting Siege Gangs turn 2 into play, and make a GP Top 8 performance I predict shouts for lackey banning all over again.

    * edit - uh oh, it felt like a year, turns out to be way less sicne RoE was released

  2. #42
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    I've played RB goblins/zoo any decent aggro deck and steamrolled UG vengevine. WG vengevine is a much better deck with better dudes but that deck obviously dies to combo. Vengevine survival takes alot of mana/effort to make work. You don't always draw survival and you often have to dig for it. If you dont draw it early, the rest of deck does not have enough power to get there. The key is redundancy. Goblins has the T1 aethervial/lackey play backed up by warren weirding/stingscourger/gempalm on turn 2. Zoo has the kitties, goyf and KOTRs backed up by burn/path/sylvan library. Survival may have some redundancy in fauna shaman but even then that is very fragile. Survival is strong but definitely not broken. Grip is an unanswerable answer which just busts survival decks.

  3. #43
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Banning Vengevine would be a joke, it would be like banning Protean Hulk or Tendrils of Agony. IF there is a problem card then it is SotF.

    I play the format quite long and remember some calls for bannings. The first card on that list was - Survival of the Fittest. Back then it was because of effing ATS. You don't know what that deck does? Let's just say the deck banned itself by being horrible. The next card players wanted to get banned was Goblin Charbelcher and that wasn't justified either. I think Fact or Fiction was the next card that had a ban discussion and then came Standstill. After that people wanted Goblin Lackey to be banned.

    I am not saying that Survival is not banworthy, since I know quite well how broken it is but I would wait a while and see how the Metagame reacts to it.

  4. #44
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    First off, I'm not saying anything should be banned, but I think something will get banned. When people like Evan Erwin start screaming for bannings, you know somebody is listening. :(

    However, if something does have to get banned, I vote for Vengevine. Survival as a card is fine. Strong? Sure. Borderline too strong? Possibly. But without Vengevine it doesn't "just win" like it does with it. Even Retainers->Iona/Emrakul can be dealt with more easily than Vengevine.

    What we should do is start a pre-emptive letter writing campaign. Send polite emails to WotC expressing your concern that Survival of the Fittest might be on their watch list for banning, and then explain to them why that is a bad idea. Why remove ~10 separate and completely different Survival sub-archetypes from the format (something that makes Legacy interesting, IMO) when you can just nail the one that is offending?

    That being said, I'm certain that WotC will do the wrong thing and ban it anyway, because they seem to be extremely reluctant to ban creatures. :(
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  5. #45

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by kikoo View Post
    Survival can't be hated effectively because if you board too much hate for it, then you will just get beaten down by giant dorks while you sit with your useless hate cards in hand/play, and if you don't board enough hate, then you will just lose to Survival.
    Couldn't they just play, like, any blue counterspell ever? SotF turns on all of blue's counterspells by being the only must-counter target in the deck. No hate necessary, just counter Survival and you're facing down a janky pile of GW creatures with all on-board combat tricks.

    Relic and Crypt are a joke since you can just bait an activation by playing 2 creatures and then pitch 2 Rootwallas to put the Vengevine triggers on top of the stack again.
    I think you need to re-read Vengevine's oracle text. I don't personally like gravehate against Vengevival, but Relic and Crypt are 100% effective unless you've got Stifle, or more Vengevines in your deck, I suppose. The ones already in the 'yard are gone.

    The deck (GW Surv) really only has 1 bad matchup: Storm combo.
    And... Dredge, Lands, Reanimator, any combo deck with SnT or FoW that doesn't just drop Emrakul, or any deck with Pithing Needle. Archetype hosers like Peacekeeper (under CB@1) or Extirpate (backed by a player who doesn't magically expect a scoop) are pretty brutal too. Without Survival, it's a strictly worse Zoo deck. Still, somehow attacking a Vengevival deck's grave seems like attacking a Storm deck's Tendrils. How about stopping the Survival just like you would an Infernal Tutor or B. Wish instead? Correct play is tech.

    Not to pick on you guy, but let's be serious... a GW deck won't/ can't dominate an eternal format. +1 for the "this deck will be irrelevant when the format adjusts" crowd.
    Great success!

  6. #46
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Just when I thought this crap died...
    Damn, like a bunch of housewifes gathering once per week to yell about the new OMFG yellow press sensation.
    Seriously, people, can we have at least a month without HolyShitThisThingIsBroken nonsense?
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  7. #47
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Warning: this post is 100% rationality-free.

    I'll hate, hate, hate if they ban Survival. It's a fun card, it enables 1000 different strategies, and it's one of the staples that define legacy. Plus, I love the name. Don't ban Survival! Don't even ban Vengevine if you still want to sell packs. Ban Rotwalla. Rotwalla is broken.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Not sure if it should be banned, but IMO, it's clearly the most bannable card in the format and certainly more deserving than something like Mystical Tutor.

    It fits the bill as a cheap, recurrable tutor. It is the engine in several different types of builds, and those decks are all posting obscenely high results. In each of the last three SCG tournaments, five Survival decks have placed in the top 16, despite making up relatively little of the field (about 10% between Minneapolis and Baltimore, data not available for Nashville yet); in other words, despite making up about 10% of the field, it's been consistently making up over 30% of the top 8. Survival archetypes overall posted 66.83% wins in Minneapolis and 62.35% in Baltimore (67.44% and 62.50% for U/G Madness in particular), highest of any archetype in those tournaments and significantly higher than any other archetype that gets played in significant quantities. It just posted the top 3 spots in Nashville. That's much a better performance over the course of three high-profile tournaments than any Mystical Tutor deck (besides Flash) has ever seen, and I would contend that Survival is inherently more flexible and resistant to hate than Mystical Tutor-based decks.

    I'm not outright calling for its banning, because to some extent, I think the card is a lot of fun (but mostly because I'm waxing nostalgic about my experiences years ago playing Survival in kitchen table Magic). But given the justifications the DCI provided for the Mystical Tutor banning, I would not be surprised if Survival were to get the axe. It certainly fits all the criteria they normally use (tutor, degenerate, unfun for the opponent, etc.)

  9. #49

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthuloo View Post
    Warning: this post is 100% rationality-free.
    If they ban Survival, I'll hang myself.

  10. #50

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    It's time for Suppression Field to stomp the format.

  11. #51

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Is it me or does Even Erwin just know nothing about constructed. A few times I've gone back and looked at his card reviews, and they're just laughable.

  12. #52
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Vengvine makes all the difference for control player. I'm a long time Landstill player. The deck started to suck with the uprise of Reanimator (printing of Iona), ANT and Merfolk (more juicy lords, Spell Pierce) in the last year. With the ban of the Mystical Tutor, I thought that the metagame became reasonably OK for Landstill. And it did, as we can remember a short uprise of the Landstill decks. But not anymore.

    Before Vengevine, I could prey on Survival decks. No matter what they had, I could deal with it. I could live with a Survival on board for a couple of turns and still overcome it. After all, all they could offer, is maybe 2-3 Goyfs for a beats, and that was also easily fixable with gravehate (relic), preying both on Goyfs and Squee. I could live by clearing the board (Wrath/P.deed) and they required a bunch of turns to recover.

    Vengevines shrunk that 'opportunity' window to nothing. Now, you absolutely can not let Survival hit the board. Because if you do - you're getting hit by 8-12 damage right there, right now. If you somehow clear the board, you're getting hit again by 8-12 the next turn. Which, as I hear, amounts to a game lost.

    The gravehate isn't particularly effective. Ok, they lure a relic activation with a pair of Vengevines. But they still have another pair and a Rootwalla to continue. Even if you Extirpate the bloody thing, you effectively dumped 1 mana/1 card, into 2-4 mana and 0 cards (since they still have the enablers: rootwalla and some other creature). And that doesn't save you from Iona or KoTR/Goyf plan.

    You need multiple gravehate cards as well as a some kind of sweeper to deal with a resolved Survival now. Which is unlikely to be happening for the sake of probability. They only need one card to cause you problems, you need a bunch to deal with it.

    Pithing Needle type of cards aren't that effective for the control decks as well. You need some quick clock, to turn it into real problem for a Survival player, which, Landstill (and CB/Top, being control deck as well) can't offer. You are geting hit with that Qasali and Grip, and they lose maybe 1-2 turns, which isn't going to be enough for you.

    Moreover, the recent Survival decks have adopted a mana denial plan, which is a pain the ass for the control decks, since they rely on sweepers, which require a lot of mana. It doesn't help that they also have counters of their own (in UGW and UG builds).

    Now, I no longer can say that I beat Survival. It steals the games and matches from me, far more often than before. More often than I'm able to take control of the game.

  13. #53

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    I'd like to mention 11 latest legacy trials on magic-league. Some kind of Survival+Vengevine decks (usually GW, sometimes UG and UGW) have won 9 of them and got to the finals in the other 2 ones. Not that it proves such fail to happen in every single meta but anyway.

  14. #54
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Wizards uses to ban a card if it's also played in the other formats. Survival is nowadays a prerogative on Legacy only.
    And Vengevine, really? I hate that card, but banning a creature- a mythic rare that nets them cash-won't happen.


    Still, I will not deny the fact that the format as of now sucks if you're willing to play honestly (Aggro-Control and Control). Being stomped by hasty 4/3s that even a retarded could do is not funny. Time to answer their t2 Survival with a t2 Tendrils now.
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  15. #55

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Funny thing is that ANT/Reanimator never got this big and it was banned. Now Vengevine start taking half of the top 8 and everybody is like "It's fine, you just need to play moar hate!".

    I'll vote for the banning of any card just out of spite for what they did with Mystical Tutor. Had they only waited for the Reanimator/ANT to start making half of the top 8's (outside of Netherlands of course!) and I wouldn't be so sour about it.

  16. #56
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Unban Mystical. That could help in keeping this deck in check.
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  17. #57
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    So 5 Survival decks make top 16 in Nashville, and people clamor for bannings.

    Pshaw. 5 Merfolk made top 16 in Baltimore. Nobody complained at all then. 0 Merfolk made it this time.

    Survival's flooding everything because everybody's playing it. Don't get me wrong. It's fantastic. But it's also popular. Don't blow it out of proportion.

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    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  18. #58
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Here is a more constructive question: What decks and specifically what hoser cards are good vs. survival decks? I know what beats AdNT, Reanimator, and Zoo, and Merfolk. I don't know what beats recurring hasted 4/3 creatures, in a Survival shell.

  19. #59
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    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Tabernacle, aven mindcensor, extirpate, suppresion field, humility, peacekeeper, canonist, really there are a ton of cards that help. I don't know if any of them just "beat" vv survival, but I know I hate playing against them as a GW survival player.

  20. #60

    Re: Survival of the Fittest

    Well, I'm playing GW Survival too, and from your list the only really dangerous things are Humility and Peacekeeper, the others are only minor to medium disturbances.

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