[Article] Saito Busted at GP Florence and What it Means

[jazzykat]

If he was a clock manipulating master which it sounds from all the interweb bitching that he is a ninja at then I am pleased he got thrown out and hope he is suspended for a long time and is not inducted into the Hall of Fame. It's one thing to pull a stupid thing like Caleb D and bet on yourself, it is another thing to systematically and knowlingly cheat tournament after tournament with clear motives.

Life sucks, he should have played faster.

[Nelis]

Actually Tiger Woods did cheat. That's why he crashed his car. (edit: ah boo, I'm ninjaad by a Vulvaap)

On topic: I'm glad they finally caught Saito. He's been at it for a quite a while now, and he's finally caught. I hope it''ll be an example to everyone out there trying to cheat.

Monkey business!

Somebody once told me that he was convinced that all pro-players cheat because he thought they otherwise wouldn't be able to put up good results all the time.

[Pippin]

It's one thing to pull a stupid thing like Caleb D and bet on yourself

That wasn't Caleb (guy who top 8'ed Columbus and unleashed vengevine-survival on legacy), but Drew Levin

[DragoFireheart]

Everyone justifying Satios slow-playing by saying he still deserves any sort of Hall of Fame sickens me. No, if you purposely manipulate the rules and bend them to the point of cheating and causing judges to be on the lookout for you, you get nothing. Stop encouraging bad behavior.

[Michael Keller]

Rules enforcement is an obvious necessity and is upheld (usually) to the highest standards of the judge's interpretation directly as to what a rule clearly states. I would caution people to be a little more careful in (at the very least) the near future, because I guarantee you Saito wasn't targeted specifically for his own individual actions; he was targeted by officials to maintain the integrity of the game. But rest assured, in the days and weeks to follow, if you're attending a large event you had better be prepared to follow the rules very carefully - especially when it comes to Stalling.

Saito was just a pawn in the larger scheme of things. Because of his well-known status in the competitive Legacy community, people genuinely looked up to him as a mentor; someone who could provide them the keys to victory in large events. One could even make the case some people will follow his style of play because it brought him so much success before (I'm not saying everyone, mind you). There are some people out there willing to bend the rules against a weaker-minded opponent who might not be willing to call a judge because they are either afraid or inexperienced to understand what is actually happening in front of them. While it may be the player's responsibility to report such an infraction, it doesn't make it right even if it goes unnoticed.

This hard-line stance by those judges and the D.C.I. was a good move to uphold the integrity of sanctioned, high-level competitive Magic. Saito paid the price for his actions, and I wouldn't bet against a more severe punishment to ensue.

[alphacat]

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-gp-florence/

Here is Saito's statement on the matter. Surprisingly, he has been dropped as a writer from Channelfireball, although I have to say I agree with the decision (but was not expecting it).

I find it rather ironic for LSV to think that this event will damage Channelfireball's reputation. I mean, is he really blind to the fact that CFB is INFAMOUS for being a terrible magic merchant site?

[Julian23]

Still it does damage CF's reputation. So he's right - no need to rant against CF.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Everyone justifying Satios slow-playing by saying he still deserves any sort of Hall of Fame sickens me. No, if you purposely manipulate the rules and bend them to the point of cheating and causing judges to be on the lookout for you, you get nothing. Stop encouraging bad behavior.

I consider it more of a failing of the DCI than him as a player. The fact of the matter is that he had been doing it for an incredibly long time with not so much as a warning. Naturally, since o one said otherwise he simply continued to play at his agonizingly slow pace. Had one judge just stepped up earlier and warned him instead of being so intimidated of him, this whole ugly mess could have been avoided.
Also, I'd still let Saito into the HoF. I give the guy benefit of the doubt as far as knowingly cheating goes and the fact remains that he is still an exceptional player.

[dschalter]

Everyone justifying Satios slow-playing by saying he still deserves any sort of Hall of Fame sickens me. No, if you purposely manipulate the rules and bend them to the point of cheating and causing judges to be on the lookout for you, you get nothing. Stop encouraging bad behavior.

Integrity is just one component the the voters are supposed to look at. While some people think that there should be no cheaters in the Hall of Fame, my feeling is that these things exist to honor great players who have made great contributions to the game, warts and all. Obviously cheating is a negative, but I don't see it as an instant disqualifier.

[cdr]

I consider it more of a failing of the DCI than him as a player. The fact of the matter is that he had been doing it for an incredibly long time with not so much as a warning. Naturally, since o one said otherwise he simply continued to play at his agonizingly slow pace. Had one judge just stepped up earlier and warned him instead of being so intimidated of him, this whole ugly mess could have been avoided.
Also, I'd still let Saito into the HoF. I give the guy benefit of the doubt as far as knowingly cheating goes and the fact remains that he is still an exceptional player.

You don't get Warnings for Stalling, you get a DQ. Saito has been warned for Slow Play before - which is, again, completely different from Stalling.

Slow Play Is Not Stalling.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

You don't get Warnings for Stalling, you get a DQ. Saito has been warned for Slow Play before - which is, again, completely different from Stalling.

Slow Play Is Not Stalling.

I understand this. But from a "whats actually happening in the game" perspective especially for Saito who constantly reevaluates to board, they look very much alike. What I'm saying is that I find it hard to believe that this is the first time his slow play actually crossed over to stalling. Not getting it earlier just condoned it for him and made him push more. Slow play isn't stalling but they are very much alike since all that seperates the two is motive.

[Aggro_zombies]

I understand this. But from a "whats actually happening in the game" perspective especially for Saito who constantly reevaluates to board, they look very much alike. What I'm saying is that I find it hard to believe that this is the first time his slow play actually crossed over to stalling. Not getting it earlier just condoned it for him and made him push more. Slow play isn't stalling but they are very much alike since all that seperates the two is motive.

Saito can quite briskly when he wants to do so (like when, say, there's lots of time left in the round). I watched him in Columbus and he doesn't seem to be any more perplexed by complex board states than most other pros...provided he's not on the ropes.

[Julian23]

I understand this. But from a "whats actually happening in the game" perspective especially for Saito who constantly reevaluates to board, they look very much alike. What I'm saying is that I find it hard to believe that this is the first time his slow play actually crossed over to stalling. Not getting it earlier just condoned it for him and made him push more. Slow play isn't stalling but they are very much alike since all that seperates the two is motive.

So basically you're saying he's either cheating (stalling) or bad (slow playing). I'd opt for the first one.

[cdr]

The problem is having a judge in a position to observe a particular player Stalling, and having that judge be experienced enough to be able to recognize it. Outside of a player being under specific surveillance, not easy when it's a 1400 player GP with at best 40 judges on the floor or a 160 player day 2 with half a dozen judges on the floor.

This is why as a spectator if you suspect a player is cheating, whether stalling or otherwise, you should discretely bring it to the attention of a judge - a high level judge if at all possible. The resources of judges are at the thinnest at a GP, so we are reliant on players bringing things to our attention.

[2Rach]

Where's the difference? Although the issue of bribery can be contested in the first place (in case of Saito) I'd argue that it's even worse than in-game cheating.

If you're stalling, you're going for the draw. That may or may not give you a win for the match, but if you stack your deck or draw an extra card you're more likely to win the game. Much better outcome. Though that's neither here nor there, we can't poll or test for all the cheating that has gone down in Magic and get actual facts regarding what's better cheating. This is subjective with the information we have.

But stalling does happen in-game...?

The reason stalling is a factor is because of the clock outside the game.

How or why is this different? Stalling is still manipulating the game state for your benefit, and is easier to pull off regularly and gain more wins from than stacking your deck. It is just as immoral, and that is why it is also grounds for immediate disqualification. People don't unknowingly Stall for competitive advantage, it's a calculated action.

I disagree with it being just as immoral. The deed's less severe since the potential consequence is less fruitful.


To those talking about his history(not the incident in 2001, the other speculation), it has no say on the matter. Everyone screaming bloody murder right now wouldn't be screaming about those "other times" if he didn't get pinched here. You'd be calling him Saito the Great currently. There wasn't concrete basis to believe him being the rampant cheater that you now say he is, and there still isn't.

With regard to my saying "I'd still vote him in". I would. His cheating is not all he's done, he's still a great player and theorist, and still has accomplished a lot in MTG. Innocent until proven guilty. And he was just proven guilty (recently) this one time. If he had more bad marks, I wouldn't, but that's not the case.


Dontbiteitholmes made a good point about the gray area there is in judging slow play on page 2.

[JACO]

It's sort of like showing up to an alcoholic's funeral and passing out AA brochures. You may have good intentions, but you look like a jackass.

Really? I didn't know I was showing up to anyone's funeral. You still have not answered anything in regards to my questions about the fact that he did indeed cheat. But as a writer and editor I have taken your notes into account and have made a slight edit to the article to add an Editor's Note to explain the pictures. We do value your opinion, even though we disagree. ;)

If you're stalling, you're going for the draw. That may or may not give you a win for the match, but if you stack your deck or draw an extra card you're more likely to win the game. Much better outcome. Though that's neither here nor there, we can't poll or test for all the cheating that has gone down in Magic and get actual facts regarding what's better cheating. This is subjective with the information we have...I disagree with it being just as immoral. The deed's less severe since the potential consequence is less fruitful.

First of all, if you're Stalling you're not necessarily going for a Draw. You could have won Game 1 and be Stalling Game 2 out to go for a Win, or you could be the Storm player Stalling Game 2 out because you know only your deck in the match has a reasonable opportunity to win a Game 3 if there happened to be 3 minutes remaining in the round. There are many different ways Stalling can help you, so I don't know what you are trying to explain away here if you think it's only for the purposes of Stalling.

It is much easier to continually pull off an act of Stalling and not get DQed then it is to continually or repeatedly draw extra cards and not get DQed. If you can manipulate the clock enough there is a virtual guarantee of the outcome being decided in your favor, which is unlike most other types of cheating (shuffle cheats, drawing extra cards, adding extra cards to sealed deck, etc.). You really underestimate the ability Stalling as a type of cheating, which I'm guessing most judges can chime in and will resolutely disagree with your interpretation.

Dontbiteitholmes made a good point about the gray area there is in judging slow play on page 2.

There isn't really a "grey area" when talking about Stalling. As defined by the rules (and what judge cdr is trying to follow up and tell readers repeatedly in this thread) Slow Play is one thing, and Stalling is entirely another. That's why there are seperate penalties and sanctions for those acts. They are fundamentally different.

[SpikeyMikey]

Integrity is just one component the the voters are supposed to look at. While some people think that there should be no cheaters in the Hall of Fame, my feeling is that these things exist to honor great players who have made great contributions to the game, warts and all. Obviously cheating is a negative, but I don't see it as an instant disqualifier.

What great contribution has he made? A few big wins? He's had a reputation for slow play and stalling for a long time. Without cheating, he's another run-of-the mill PT regular. If we're going off contributions, there's a laundry list of people that should be there before him. Ed Paltzik for his revolutionalizing T1 on 3 separate occasions with BSB, Legend Suicide Black and Ankh Sligh. His Suicide Black primer was huge in terms of Magic theory. Mike Flores, the greatest Magic theorist to date. You know, Philosophy of Fire, Who's the Beatdown, that sort of thing? Even our own Finn, who created Legacy Merfolk (the deck Saito won his last GP with) and Death and Taxes. Fuck, I've contributed more to Magic than Saito.

But the HoF is set up to be a reward for high-caliber players, not people who make large contributions to the game. Otherwise Richard Garfield would be in the HoF. If you don't have 100 Pro Points, you can't get in. Contributions have nothing to do with it.

[dschalter]

The SLOW PLAY IS NOT STALLING fact, has been repeated several hundred times now, which is nice. That doesn't mean that there are times when it is possible to confuse one for the other. I'm not saying it is likely and there are usually ways to tell, but people are talking about it as though there is some blinking red light that goes off over the head of a player who is playing slowly and is trying trying to run down the clock to force a 1-0 win or draw, and that there will be a blinking green light if the player is innocently tanking and needs to be warned for slow play.

[cdr]

Absolutely, absent awareness of intent Stalling will often look like Slow Play. This is true of pretty much all Cheating, since cheating is defined by intent. Judges have to always keep in mind the possibility that something else might be going on beyond what's on the surface, and that's not easy when you're trying to keep the tournament moving. Less experienced judges can often need to be too focused on getting the basics right to have that higher awareness, and the majority of a GP staff is going to be less experienced judges. A one-off cheat, especially at a GP, is unlikely to be caught - cheaters get caught because they keep cheating.

I keep seeing posts though where people are very obviously not clear on the difference between Slow Play and Stalling (or even that there is a difference), which is why I keep attempting to clarify.

Saito got DQed for deliberately playing slowly to run out the clock, not for simply playing slowly.

[kkoie]

Why? Was it innacurate?

It was meant to be humorous, but if it is that offensive (even though it's true, as you yourself have written), why is it actually offensive to your sensibilities? I'm genuinely curious, as I don't like doing things in poor taste that would detract from the website. He has been cheating for quite some time, has a rep about for doing it, and was finally busted. I found it entertaining. If we as players don't start calling out other players and the DCI continues to let people who have a demonstrative history of cheating enter the Magic Hall of Fame then the trend will only continue.

Well I don't know about Meekrabs sensibilities, but I personally found the photo's to be humorous, but skirting the edge for serious reporting. Technically he never got a trophy for cheating. And by photoshopping the pix, some individuals take that as satire, when they are wanting factual reporting.

Now as far as your editorial clarification, it certainly adds weight in giving you an out that it's a jab at humor and not bent to suggest that all of his trophies for past events are invalid (maybe you do think that, I would appreciate that comment, but that would be opinion not fact). It would've been amusing if you had an opportunity to fire such a question at a WotC official, just so you can quote the question in your article and briefly cover the responce:

Reporter - "Mr Wizard, now that it has been determined that Saito has a history of cheating, will there be any investigation regarding his past tournament wins and whether or not he should return his trophie's and prize money?"
WotC - "no."

Sure the answer is obvious, but you still get the question in there which makes Saito look even worse, just by asking the question about his past wins.