[Deck] The Rock

[Claymore]

I like the cheeky play of ruining your opponent's draw too, incase they have very limited outs. Obviously useful against Miracles as well.

[ClimbGneiss]

Noxious revival has a lot of play in the early game to where the right revivalx2 hand could be really good which is part of the reason I like the card.

You have immense Wasteland protection, you get to double up on hymn/cabal for card advantage and if you follow up with a Dark Confidant/Library/tracker you are in great shape. Especially early when engines are not online, buying back a force of willed bob is still even in cards and most likely a pretty big blow out. Noxious Revival has been pretty bonkers overall.

Most decks have minimal card advantage so your bob/tracker/Loam/Lilliana/garruk/Library will be more than enough to make up the CA.

Unearth will cost 2 to draw a card... very meh, actually unearthing a creature is for mid game and unearth doesn't save you from wastelands or even help against combo.

Thank for the reply. I'm looking to.be convinced on this one actually because I've been a fan of Noxious Revival from afar for a while now. Specifically, I always thought its fringe use as a fateseal was impressive. In this deck, where we can assemble a couple of 4/5 goyfs in a heartbeat, fatesealing someone's draw step is very compelling.
The other item I've been covincing myself, even prior to your point, was being able to return a hymn and hymn someone onto oblivion. In a way, it's sort of like green-blacks version of force of will.

[lavafrogg]

There are corner cases where Noxious will be a blow out, but I don't think you can count on those from happening on a regular basis. These situations will be fatesealing your opponent ftw, removing the only dredge creature from the graveyard, "countering" a miracle, removing a reanimate target with the reanimate on the stack... just blowouts. I feel that the card is kind of like the opposite of stifle. It ensures you can't get mana denied(stifle+wasteland) out of the game, and then it has so many more applications that are all very matchup and draw dependent. Sometimes the card will counter a snapcaster, sometimes it will just be a deathrite shaman activation.

Hymn Revival Hymn is a 4-3 that strip your opponent of for random cards and you two cards and a draw step(or a cycle land). The draw 2 combo with Tireless Tracker is really strong as is putting a certain card on top for Dark Confidant triggers. Finally, the Vampiric Tutor like ability can not be understated, or the 2 mana revival+cycle land for an instant regrowth.

The card just has tons of play and I for one will be packing a few in my Rock list for the foreseeable future.

[ClimbGneiss]

There are corner cases where Noxious will be a blow out, but I don't think you can count on those from happening on a regular basis. These situations will be fatesealing your opponent ftw, removing the only dredge creature from the graveyard, "countering" a miracle, removing a reanimate target with the reanimate on the stack... just blowouts. I feel that the card is kind of like the opposite of stifle. It ensures you can't get mana denied(stifle+wasteland) out of the game, and then it has so many more applications that are all very matchup and draw dependent. Sometimes the card will counter a snapcaster, sometimes it will just be a deathrite shaman activation.

Hymn Revival Hymn is a 4-3 that strip your opponent of for random cards and you two cards and a draw step(or a cycle land). The draw 2 combo with Tireless Tracker is really strong as is putting a certain card on top for Dark Confidant triggers. Finally, the Vampiric Tutor like ability can not be understated, or the 2 mana revival+cycle land for an instant regrowth.

The card just has tons of play and I for one will be packing a few in my Rock list for the foreseeable future.

Not sure how much you've played with this build yet - but have you faced down a lot of combo? How is show and tell? Ant? Infect? RG Comni lands? Br reanimator?

I intend to run 3 Surgical, 2 Lost legacy, 1 Null Rod and 2 Pithing needle in my board; so, I feel pretty confident in my post board plan.

[lavafrogg]

Not sure how much you've played with this build yet - but have you faced down a lot of combo? How is show and tell? Ant? Infect? RG Comni lands? Br reanimator?

I intend to run 3 Surgical, 2 Lost legacy, 1 Null Rod and 2 Pithing needle in my board; so, I feel pretty confident in my post board plan.

I love the interest!

Please understand, we are underdogs to combo decks. Just like every other deck that does not play blue(this is a generalization, I don't care about "blank non-blue deck" that has a "good" combo matchup) Death and Taxes plays main board hate bears and still doesn't want to play combo decks.

That being said... our plan is to chain together enough discard to let our tarmogoyfs get there. In my experience this plan works a fair amount of the time as thoughtsieze into hymn into goyf/dark confidant can win a lot of games for no reason. In addition to discard plus goyf's we have a lot of incidental "hate" on cards we would play anyways. Deathrite Shaman/Noxious Revival help against graveyard decks or mess up a past in flames/threshold. Liliana can keep a storm deck from acquiring enough cards to storm us out.

We are trying to beat all of the fair decks while still having a fighting chance to steal games from the evil combo monsters from time to time.

Surgical and Lost legacy are the best cards we can bring into against combo and I would play both if you plan to see combo decks on a regular basis(I would also just play blue if combo is super present in your meta).

While I wouldn't want to play combo every round from my experience over the past few weeks I would rank the decks you mentioned like this

Bad

ANT 0-2
Sneak and Show 0-1
BR Reanimator 1-1
Lands 2-0
Infect 2-1

Not So Bad

My match record against these decks is after the name and is obviously still low at this point, I have so far been happy with the results and I feel that the combo match-up is very similar to old Maverick decks where you had Thalia and GSZ into Teeg with a few hatebears after board. Sometimes that was enough... sometimes it wasn't but at least you had a plan.

[lavafrogg]

Bump.

Went 3-1 this week. Beating BUG, Miracles and Goblins, I still haven't gotten over the hump against storm as my loss was to some nut draws from ANT.

Same list I have been playing, no changes so far.

[damionblackgear]

Bump.

Went 3-1 this week. Beating BUG, Miracles and Goblins, I still haven't gotten over the hump against storm as my loss was to some nut draws from ANT.

Same list I have been playing, no changes so far.

Nice showing. Unfortunately that storm problem isn't gonna go anywhere. You've got no teeth in that match.

Right now you have discard and almost no pressure (only goyf). Your sideboard gives some extra stall but no race. The other unfortunate part is that we've not found many more creatures that are efficient and/or convincing enough to assist.

We also tend to take combo in general is being a one deck archetype as opposed to being the multitude of decks that it actually is. An answer for one may not be the answer for another. It feels like we've been trying to operate this way since before the split.

Perhaps we should be looking into other areas of offense if we're going to focus on storm decks. Defense has continually been a losing battle. We're not playing Force. Defending doesn't seem like an option.

I'll see if I can find something later.

[Megadeus]

There's always good old Hippie Spec. Or Nether Void

[kinda]

Bump.

Went 3-1 this week. Beating BUG, Miracles and Goblins, I still haven't gotten over the hump against storm as my loss was to some nut draws from ANT.

Same list I have been playing, no changes so far.

Looking at the last list you posted, you have a lot of dead cards game 1 vs ANT/TES/Show and tell varieties etc. : 4 decay, 3 push. Plus some likely too slow cards like tracker and Garruk. I'd shave some push/decay/tracker/noxious revival? in the main for collective brutality. It's not the most spectacular card but it's solid against everything and I'm never sad to draw it.

In the board I would want the 4th seize plus some permanent hate. You don't actually have enough sb cards to swap out all of your dead maindeck cards vs storm.

[lavafrogg]

Looking at the last list you posted, you have a lot of dead cards game 1 vs ANT/TES/Show and tell varieties etc. : 4 decay, 3 push. Plus some likely too slow cards like tracker and Garruk. I'd shave some push/decay/tracker/noxious revival? in the main for collective brutality. It's not the most spectacular card but it's solid against everything and I'm never sad to draw it.

In the board I would want the 4th seize plus some permanent hate. You don't actually have enough sb cards to swap out all of your dead maindeck cards vs storm.

As much as I would like to beat combo, I don't actually think that a straight GB, or non blue deck in general, can make enough room to combo hate while still maintaining other matchups. I have had bad luck in pairing with the only storm player in the room the last few weeks.

The 4th thoughtseize and 4th hymn can come in but I have been enjoying the 3/2/3 split.

Collective Brutality is good but I want 1cc removal for early DRS/Mom and abrupt decay pulls extra duty against all non storm matchups. I could pull hymn for brutality which is a very real possibility. That would remove the BB casting cost difficulties, that being said, hymn is amazing.

I just don't think that bringing storm percentages up is worth what I would have to sacrifice.

[Megadeus]

I actually like the thought of cutting hymn for brutality. Brutality is a better top deck in the late game than hymn, and sometimes you get to kill a deathrite and take a spell from their hand or something on turn 2

[lavafrogg]

I actually like the thought of cutting hymn for brutality. Brutality is a better top deck in the late game than hymn, and sometimes you get to kill a deathrite and take a spell from their hand or something on turn 2

I don't think that you really gain anything from brutality over hymn. You lose the CA angle of hymn, the game winning factor of double hymn you and you get the ability to kill something small, which you already kill quite easily.

If you want a good card against combo I think the best option at GB is going to be Chalice of the Void powered by Mox Diamond and the Loam engine. In the at shell Abrupt Decay and Brutality fit nicely together, but you would be playing a Loam deck.

I have my Lost Legacies and feel like discard-legacy-goyf or DRS-Legacy "should" help me steal wins from time to time. It just hasn't happened yet. I will try taking out the therapies and going to 4 hymns and thoughtseizes, see if that helps.

[CptHaddock]

I don't think that you really gain anything from brutality over hymn. You lose the CA angle of hymn, the game winning factor of double hymn you and you get the ability to kill something small, which you already kill quite easily.

If you want a good card against combo I think the best option at GB is going to be Chalice of the Void powered by Mox Diamond and the Loam engine. In the at shell Abrupt Decay and Brutality fit nicely together, but you would be playing a Loam deck.

I have my Lost Legacies and feel like discard-legacy-goyf or DRS-Legacy "should" help me steal wins from time to time. It just hasn't happened yet. I will try taking out the therapies and going to 4 hymns and thoughtseizes, see if that helps.

Yeah I think that on paper brutality seems like the better but I feel like it's a 2 mana duress in most matchups. I think that Hymn is going to be the better card in most matchups. We have a plethora of tools for combo matchups postboard with things like cranial extraction effects, discard spells and even permanent based hate like thorn or chalice. It's just going to come down to drawing them at the right time. I think that most nonblue decks are going to have the same problem.

Anyways I want to play a more streamlined list like the one that Sean Brown posted in his legacy article this week. I'm not a fan of the Gifted Aetherborn he had initially so i'm going to replace them although I can see a case for them if there are a lot of BGx or Eldrazi decks running around. I still think that you want to run some number of mox diamonds or chrome moxes for more explosive starts but we'll see.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

[lavafrogg]

Yeah I think that on paper brutality seems like the better but I feel like it's a 2 mana duress in most matchups. I think that Hymn is going to be the better card in most matchups. We have a plethora of tools for combo matchups postboard with things like cranial extraction effects, discard spells and even permanent based hate like thorn or chalice. It's just going to come down to drawing them at the right time. I think that most nonblue decks are going to have the same problem.

Anyways I want to play a more streamlined list like the one that Sean Brown posted in his legacy article this week. I'm not a fan of the Gifted Aetherborn he had initially so i'm going to replace them although I can see a case for them if there are a lot of BGx or Eldrazi decks running around. I still think that you want to run some number of mox diamonds or chrome moxes for more explosive starts but we'll see.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Where is this article you speak of?

[CptHaddock]

Where is this article you speak of?

This week in legacy. You can ctrl f "The Rock" to quickly get to the decklists.

[lavafrogg]

This week in legacy. You can ctrl f "The Rock" to quickly get to the decklists.

Nice article, it is good to see that more people are playing the straight GB lists. Both lists shown are within a few cards of what I have been playing and the article hits the nail on the head when it says that the colors are a little soft to combo.

I think I am going to find room for the 3x Liliana and 4x seize 4x hymn, the tireless tracker has just been too good for me to cut down the numbers.

Finally, I am going to explore the depths combo and Living Wish as an option as my utility card. Without the hex age the combo will not be fast, but with wish and Loam it could be a good option to end the game.

New Current List:

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker

Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Noxious Revival

Planeswalkers(3)
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Lost Legacy
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Marsh Casuties
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach

[lavafrogg]

Creatures (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vampire Hexmage
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (18)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
3 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands (22)
4 Bayou
2 Dark Depths
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Wasteland
2 Extirpate
1 Vampire Hexmage
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Yahenni's Expertise

This is a list from the article posted above that I am most interested in. The second list was pretty par to what we have been currently testing. This version takes our awesome 2 color mana base and adds the Dark Depths/Hexmage/Stage Combo. I think we would gain points against the dreaded combo matchup dude to the possibility of a turn 2/3 20/20 but we would lose points to Delver/DnT as our mana base would be more easily assault-able.

My current thoughts would be to remove some of the random and streamline a bit. I also don't really see the value in the AEtherborn seeing how we crush fare decks already.

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage

Disruption(8)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Planeswalkers(2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Living Wish

Lands(22)
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
2 Marsh Casulties
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Hexmage/Stage/Depths
2 Choke
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Scavenging Ooze

I am interested to see the Miracles matchup with these changes as endgame is making a 20/20 every other turn while most likely hiding behind a Liliana. You get random Jitte/Planeswalker/Chalice hate with the Hexmages and Living Wish is very versatile, finding all 3 combo pieces and most everything you are looking for in the board.

Anyone else brewing BG right now?

[Tokugawa]

Baleful Strix has told everyone: P/T of 1/1 is enough, and also perfect, for a deathtouch blocker. Gifted Aetherborn is an obviously subpar card for today's Legacy.

[lavafrogg]

Baleful Strix has told everyone: P/T of 1/1 is enough, and also perfect, for a deathtouch blocker. Gifted Aetherborn is an obviously subpar card for today's Legacy.

Isn't there a 2/3 deathtouch delirium guy for G? I think he would be the goto deathtouch creature if we needed one.

[Megadeus]

Isn't there a 2/3 deathtouch delirium guy for G? I think he would be the goto deathtouch creature if we needed one.

3/3 actually I think. Gnarlwood Dryad or something. Just play a Glissa. Eldrazi can never beat that card sans removal