Hahaha ofc i run 3 GSZ :D
Otherwise I wouldnt have mentioned it that often in my explanations. just forgot to add it to the list, ill change that, sry
Rock took 1st at a small event recently, fairly streamlined version. It's pretty close to what I've played in the past. I think it's missing a couple cards, probably some number of Lingering souls or maybe going the Knight route with 24 lands. With 4x SFM those souls tokens would really take it over the top against decks like Miracles and Grixis control, but they obviously didn't have too much trouble coming in first. Twelve players, not a big event, but still noteworthy enough for mtgtop8.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20702&f=LE
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've been thinking lately that Rock is going the way of Zoo; playing efficient disruption and threats just isn't enough anymore. Dark Depths is a better BG mid-range deck, Stoneblade is a better white-based agro control deck, and Nic Fit is better at going big with value. Wasteland isn't as effective by itself anymore at providing enough of a tempo hitch for Goyf to finish the job. Liliana of the Veil is seeing less and less play. Deathrite Shaman is banned. We're in the stone ages with Rock, and I don't think it's going to survive without something new.
Curious what dedicated Rock players thinks about the last year of metagame shifts/bans and how it has affected this deck. This used to be my go-to deck for tournaments, giving even odds across the board with ways to outplay opponents. I'm nowhere near that optimistic anymore. Nic Fit, Jund, even Shardless BUG has fallen by the wayside in the face of the Grixis/Miracles control overlords.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I used to play The Rock a couple of years ago, it was great at stomping Miracles when it seemed like no other deck could (apart from Cloudpost I guess). I'm guessing it still can, so that may be where it catches life again. I don't remember what meta change caused the deck to disappear but I've considered it more or less dead for something like two years. I think it happened when blue decks realized they could play Deathrite and get away with it. When the opponent has Brainstorms they tend to end up winning the Deathrite battle, they somehow always draw a better combination of Deathrites and removal for your Deathrites, while also getting the upside of FoW against fast combo decks. I'm not sure that is all correct, but maybe to some degree. Grixis Delver had Pyromancer - Probe - Therapy to compete with the Rock's Lingering Souls and Hymns too; more mana efficient and synergistic. And TNN to beat the Rock's goyfs. Like someone said recently in another thread, Fatal Push eating goyf could be involved too, making Goyf seem less relevant, but Lingering Souls laughs at Push so I don't know. I think the deck was just ouclassed by Grixis Delver.
When I look at rebuilding the Rock, which I try a few times every year, I try to get a lot of card draw and library manipulation or tutors to offset the blue decks' advantage, with a combination of Sylvan Libraries, GSZ's and Tireless Tracker and Ramunap Excavator I want to think that's doable..
Once you commit to GSZ, Tracker, and Library you really have to consider if Nic Fit or Maveric are the better options, and those aren't doing anything notable in the format either. More than anything else it seems that mid-range, for the most part, just isn't a winning strategy at the moment. If there was ever an archetypal mid-range deck, Rock is it. I guess what I'm driving at is this: it needs something new to breathe new life into it. Tracker was a pretty incredible printing for mid-range decks but it doesn't do nearly enough for this deck, especially at 3 mana with the lean mana-base that Rock carries.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The Rock functions very differently from those decks though, with a heavy discard theme and card advantage threats. Maverick suffers from having too few relevant threats vs Miracles and Grixis Control, I think this is the experience of most Maverick players with some notable exception. Cards like Dark Confidant, Lingering Souls and Sylvan Library can really pressure a control deck, sometimes they (Confidant, Souls) are tried when Maverick players try to step up their game vs Control but for the Rock they are played in multiples in the maindeck (maybe not always, but often). It may be that the introduction of Liliana the Last Hope has changed this, for Grixis Control at least, I don't know, but she can really deal with those cards efficiently. [Edit: of course, you can also argue that Grixis Control is the new The Rock/Jund deck, being a card-advantage focused attrition deck]
The problem for the Rock is probably the late game topdecks due to playing a lot of discard and no cantrips. That's why I think GSZ is needed to get the deck back in competition, and I skip Goyf in my lists because he is not an impressive threat anymore. But CMC3 for Tracker is a problem, I agree, but it's a problem that GSZ is well equipped to handle since the card adjusts to your available mana. Apparantly this is an open problem though, I know it has been for me when trying to build such a deck.
Nic Fit is also a different deck, and of course there are many versions, but a common problem is that Veteran Explorer is equally useful for Miracles and Grixis Control so you're at a disadvantage by playing this card already in those matchups. Where Nic Fit plays Veteran Explorer, The Rock is instead full of cards that pressure Miracles and Grixis Control. Or well, I argued whether that is still the case above, but that's another discussion.
tl;dr: I think The Rock has unique values that makes it relevant for consideration next to Maverick and Nic Fit. Edit: but it's questionable if it's worth trying to build The Rock over Grixis Control..
Last edited by pettdan; 12-11-2018 at 12:03 PM.
Good summary, I think we are on the same page. I really think the deck needs something new to push it's viability again. GSZ could be that element, but I'm skeptical.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
As for me gsz absolutely is the answer were looking for. I also think goyf isnt really good atm but still neccassary and the best beater we have unless we want to play kotr as another 3drop. I really think we should just replace old lilly with her New sister since she is waaaayyy better These days. It deals with annoying strixes and is a threat on its own.
I still love the list I Posted the page before but i changed kotr for goyf again and im trying to cut the nobles for either hymn or decay. Also 3 sylvan libraries feels really strong as does gsz.
What about Deranged Hermit + Phyrexian Plaguelord + Genesis / Recurring Nightmare?
Ya'll are some strange folks. Why do you keep on trying various GSZ based builds when you clearly admit that they don't function, force deckbuilding restrictions that aren't good vs the format and are better engines in other decks? It's not 2011, you can't play random cards in your (nonblue) rock deck and hope to win games. People actually understand this format now, every deck has gotten more efficient especially the blue ones. So if they're playing the best cards in their respective archetypes why are you playing subpar cards in your deck?
The problem is that there is no longer a reason to play green, black, and white cards in the same deck anymore. What is The Rock even doing with green anymore? Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay? You no longer need green to have access to large efficient creatures. If you're playing white, you don't really need Abrupt Decay to deal with non-creature permanents, especially now that Sensei's Divining Top is banned.
Or likewise, why do you need white if you're in black and green? Swords to Plowshares? Black has Fatal Push now, as well as Diabolic Edict. You don't need access to Disenchant, Vindicate, or Council's Judgment when you have access to Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, and Krosan Grip. Stoneforge Mystic? There are other grindy creatures that are good against opposing aggro decks in other colors, particularly in blue.
The point I'm making is that this color combination is no longer unique. There is a lot of overlap between the tools available in these colors. Blue is simply a much better color to be in, whether you're going Esper, Sultai, Grixis, etc.
I used to love this color combination. There was a time when Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, and Knight of the Reliquary were unrivaled. That simply isn't the case anymore. That's not to say that they don't print some sort of Leovold-esque card in BWG that crushes the format and makes this color combination relevant again... but that doesn't seem likely.
The best thing this color combination has going for it right now, in my opinion, is Choke... maybe if they printed a choke with legs? BWG for a 4/4 with the rules text of Choke would be a pretty strong reason to move back into Abzan colors...
I agree with both of you, CaptHaddock and Hanni. I was playing the role of 'bearer of bad news'. I do think new cards could give the deck more play, but it would have to be something unique and frankly really fucking good . It would have to be something like a more efficient siege rhino, a maindeckable blue-hate card, or something like tireless tracker that didn't belong better in a blue deck. We'll see what the next few sets bring.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Has anyone tried running Painful Truths in here? It's just a big 'ol pile of CA for not a ton of mana. That or OG Elspeth or Nissa or something? I mean, I know everyone loves the current setup, but it's pretty clearly not working anymore - at least not in this meta. Blue decks generally run about 10-14 pieces of "air" - cantrips. BG has similar tools, they've just fallen out of fashion because they're not 1 mana and universal, but they're often more powerful. Natural Order, Painful Truths, Read the Bones, Diabolic Intent, Green Sun's Zenith, Night's Whisper.. there's a lot of options. Maybe it's time to just commit to running X number of "air" cards ourselves. There are ways to profitably trade in "useless" late card draws like birds/elves/discard through things like Collective Brutality/Diabolic Intent etc.
Maybe drop white? How about something like:
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Eternal Witness
1x Progenitus
4x Natural Order
2x Read the Bones
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Collective Brutality
4x Assassin's Trophy
1x Damnation
1x Choke
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Bayou
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Volrath's Stronghold
How is that setup better than BG Depths? I'll save you the effort: it isn't. Depths is one of the strategies pushing 'fair-er' versions out of the metagame. Painful Truths has been in/out of Rock decks since it was printed, generally not being as good as Sylvan Library or Dark Confidant. The painful truth (see what I did there?) is that blue versions of value-based mid-range/control are just plain better. Red is even better at providing value with KCommand and Punishing Fire. Deathrite Shaman provided at least a somewhat level playing field, but without it this deck falls way behind. I'm also going to pretend I didn't see Read the Bones in your decklist, it doesn't pass the straight face test against even the other card you mentioned (Painful Truths.) That list is begging for Veteran Explorer and GSZ, which means it's just a worse version of Nic Fit.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Chillax bro, I know it's a terrible list. I put Read the Bones in because you need three colors for Painful Truths to work and I wanted to list something other than Night's Whisper to just be cute.
I just threw it out there in 30 seconds to point out that we can make different lists than what we're doing now, because again, what we're doing now ISN'T FUCKING WORKING.
So good job for pointing out, again, that current builds of Rock aren't great and have issues. Because nobody in this thread knew that until you said something.
Chillax-ing in progress, sorry I was so abrasive.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Adding card advantage doesn't change the fact that blue is doing what you are doing better. You already have solid card advantage options with Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, and Sylvan Library. Not to mention cards like Mother of Runes, Hymn to Tourach, Planeswalkers, etc. Card advantage isn't the problem.
Blue is just a better color for playing the midrange plan these days. The uniqueness of the Abzan color combination is no longer necessary with all of the recent printings that have added new threats and answers to other colors.
Choke aside, I think the next greatest strength here is the ability to play mana dorks. GSZ/Arbor and Hierarch to consistently ramp out powerful 3 drops sounds attractive. The problem, though, is that two of the best 3 drops are blue (TNN and Leovold). You can try and run Ramunap, Knight, and Tracker instead, but I'd rather be jamming TNN and Leovold myself. I think Elves is a better Natural Order deck, but maybe that's a possible way forward here.
Okay? Not really sure what you're getting at. Your first paragraph makes it sound like you're saying that I'm stating the obvious, while the second paragraph makes it sound like I'm not. What was the point you were trying to get at? Was this meant to be a personal attack? Because if it was, you failed miserably.
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