I agree against Plow it is much better, of course. I should have specified that I meant Plow decks. However, the return trigger is good, but the gain life is worse than Jitte. I think both swords have their merits and i am a proponent of both but ill be trying FaF for now.
-Matt
Depends upon the variant of Lands.dec. Pfires and Loam as the only "spells" is a tough call for me to bring in Thalia. Lands.dec makes so much mana you're shooting yourself in the foot more often that slowing them down. Scavenging Ooze and dedicated GY hate goes a long way with Lands. Luckily, the deck is glacially slow to get going (barring no god-draw). You can Liliana-Ult them as they have few outs to one on the table. If they wanna pfires her, it comes at the expense of not dealing with your creatures. Decay any permanents they drop and move from there. Don't be afraid to decay or Kgrip their mox either. Lists recently have become so greedy with colorless lands to the extent that Mox is one of the few sources of colored mana.Originally Posted by tescrin
Had a small tournament last night that went fine (2-0-1) beating Pox, a janky Young Pyro combo thing (not ANT/TES), and drawing (with lethal on board) against 12-post. I post mostly because I'm sitting in between Maverick/Junk territory.
I've recently also gotten a slew of practice against BUG Delver variants and Junk mirror; with predictable results (BUG is in my favor even when I have Jank like Sculler in the deck. Junk is pretty even even when I was running Hymns and no SFM.)
Main Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maze of Ith
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Vindicate
2 Zuran Orb
-I like to run 8x MD combo hate, so when I removed my hymns I went for Thalias
-Thalia has proven pretty good. I like that she messes with sequencing and hates on Delver, which is now 3/8ths of the DTB section. Shores up not only combo, but things like Burn and removal.dec so you have a reliable blocker, something they want to waste a spell on, and time to land Liliana.
-BSK still feels awkward to me. With experience I'll figure out whether he belongs in the deck and when it's appropriate to actually fetch him. So far, it feels like "never" is the right answer unless your opponent is having removal/mana issues.
-Cabal Pit is has been wicked tech over time. Kills Mom, Mirran Crusader, regular disfigure targets, recurs with Loam, fetches with Knight. The damage has almost never been relevant, but saving me a Plow slot is good.
-I don't miss Souls yet; and with Thalia I'm not sure how I'd swap around to get them in.
-Loam consistently over-performs and takes over games. Having 2 in the MD vs. 1 is debatable for me, but seeing 2 is often more harmful than not seeing it in a game.
-SB is wonky because it's in flux. I expect I'll add extractions, shave orbs for big tournaments (unless burn becomes bigger), Shave SoLaS and possibly maze for actual SB cards.
-Don't want to argue/talk about KotR, Top, IoK, or Savannah. I imagine It'll become 3 TS 2 IoK, or possibly a 3/3 split (but I'm missing 1 more Lorwyn TS.)
Last edited by tescrin; 08-25-2014 at 11:53 AM. Reason: TCGplayer is real cool.
Batterskull is something I don't like in non-blue SFM based decks. Opening with it is SO crappy, and many times, I don't want to fetch it at all. Try another Sword like Light and Shadow/FaF.
I think Loam is exceptional in Knight builds, as is Cabal Pit. I'd never run Bog in the main since it's a CitP tapped land that I'd never want to open with (Arbor is better since it has much more potential). I'd rather run Bog in the board and bring the other Sword to the main, leaving you with a mana slot. If you plus this deck into deck stats, you're running too little white and over doing it on the black. I'd change your manabase to:
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Which brings your white percentage to 26% of the actual 31% you have in your deck. You could also play the basic plains just in case for SFM activations over multiple turns against mana denial decks and you wouldn't need to buy a Savannah or go over on your green count.
In addition, your maindeck appears to be 57 cards. I can't immediately see what you're missing, but it might be Liliana or something. Just check to make sure.
-Matt
I have to disagree on the Batterskull with you guys. I play BSK with some success. Sure, flipping it over with Dark Confidant is almost suicidal, but flipping Sword of XY hurts too. Having it in opening 7 might be a problem, I agree. On the other hand, having BSK in opening 7 together with Stoneforge Mystic is quite good. I simply play Stoneforge Mystic and if it resolves, fetch the Sword of XY. My opponent will let her live to either deal with Sword or with creature while equipping to waste our mana. In such scenario I just jam the Batterskull in and I am ahead. Batterskull is Abrupt Decay-proof. That's very relevant in BUG/Jund/RUG matchup. Games go long and pay 5 mana for 4/4 lifelink vigilance menace with the ability to recur itself is so good. Batterskull is the first piece of equipment I fetch here (unless I have another Mystic in hand). Last but not the least - don't forget we play ton of discard to clear the path for Stoneforge->Batterskull Shenanigans.
2 tescrin - I like your list, especially KotR and land a toolbox part. And Life from the Loam of course. That card is insane on its own (and much better with Lili). But every time I start thinking about KotR build, I play against combo or Delver and I am glad I have Tarmogoyfs. KotR seems too slow to me without playing Mox Diamons (ramp + pump). I may be wrong though.
My list for reference (based on sdematts deck) :
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Marsh Flat
1x Windswept Heath
3x Wasteland
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Sylvan Library
SIDEBOARD:
1x Humility
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Enlightened Tutor
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Krosan Grip
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Lingering Souls
I would like to incorporate singleton Life from the Loam and add 4th Wasteland into my 60 but the deck is very tight.
I personally think Batterskull is a fine card to have access to. It is however key to know when to fetch it. I like to fetch it generally only when my hand literally has no threat outside of stoneforge or I know that I have made them discard their removal for my stoneforge. Even then, generally I like having a sword or something to slap onto my men more. Still though, I really like it when I get it in an opener with a stoneforge, then when I play stoneforge I get a SoFaI and they dont kill SF. Then the BSK comes down for the beats. It's really up to you. My buddy plays it in the SB a lot of the time.
Yeah, I keep forgetting that TCGPlayer doesn't put the planeswalkers in it's "printable format." This isn't the first time this awkwardness has happened lol. It's a 4x Lily, which I've amended to the list.
Looking at this I can see how tight the mana is by being "between" decks here, and my abundance of black is part of the issue. I own Savannahs, but if I need to hedge I'll swap a Bayou->Scrub or drop one for a fetch. It just comes down to Lily needs to be reliably cast and I rarely want the savannah until I have my other duals. You may be right overall.
Bog can be annoying, but I'll be keeping it. It just becomes relevant in so many MUs. I can see that having the 6th KotR target (Kks, Bog, Pit, 3 Waste) is hurting the manabase though.
@Lio
This is partly why I'm trying to hedge with Thalia. He also makes *some* combo MUs much better than Goyf would, such as S&T, (sometimes) Reanimator, and Dredge (if you have the Bog.) It's like running 4 Karakas, 4 Bog (just that 3 of them cost 3 mana or the opponent using S&T.)
You could argue it back and forth with Goyf (as cutting a turn off of your clock is a free timewalk for the opponent) but my experience with Dredge and Reanimator especially was an that KotR is an uphill battle for them.
@Mega
I was thinking you were supposed to grab BSK when you wanted them to waste removal on SFM (F.E. you want your Confidant to stick) or when it's win-vs.-loss (TES going Goblins.) I'll be leaving it in for another Local and some testing, but I'm certainly on the fence. It'll be easier to tell after a few more matches whether it's a skill level thing (me getting it at a dumb moment; which I think is the case) or simply a crutch. I do like that it's a non-grave fatty.
@tescrin:
I think the big question with your list your response to "what are you looking to do?" I simultaneously like and dislike your list. It's got good elements and bad elements but this assertion comes after I ask myself "what is he really pushing here?" Junk-Maverick can have a love-child. The issue is figuring out what strategy and end-point you want FIRST and putting pieces together SECOND.
I'd honestly start with
4 DRS
4 Bob
3-4 Thoughtseize (best discard atm)
3-4 Liliana
and move from there. Your options to further MD hate combo include: Thalia, IoK (second best discard), Tidehollow (plays well with Thalia), Cabal Therapy (works with Bob), Hymn (just kicks people in the balls).
I personally wouldn't run KotR unless I felt I needed a land toolbox or my deck leaned green-centric. KotR + Arbor work too well with GSZ. However, those very slots eat into your SFM + Equipments. I know Junk-blade is a thing, but I've tried it to lackluster results. The SFM plan is best with a grindy twist to Junk: Lingering Souls and Equipment. Again, figure out what you want the deck to do before you pick the cards to add. Alternatively, you could be "answers spells.dec" and just run the gambit of decays, deed, stp, etc and finish with a handful of guys. The sky is the limit. A vision on where you want to go is key though.
EDIT2: Apolpgies in advance, the Bold makes it look angry
Indeed. I started with that core you're talking about (with Iok/TS split because I dislike having multiple TS in hand and so I've only bought a pair so far.)
My next "move" from that core was adding the small KotR toolbox as it targets a set of decks I hate losing to (Dredge, Reanimator, S&T) while doing the "other" thing I like doing: Manascrewing people. It helps that he smashes through Goyfs and Skulls pretty reliably.
Thalia moves me in against Storm and helps with the manascrew plan. I'm partly employing her Main since you had recent success with Maverick (but I love black too much) and partly because she helps with anything the deck is inherently bad against (combo, burn, etc..)
If you follow that logic train; my ideal deck is something that Timmy's out/manascrews fair decks with reasonable anti-combo game. I realize that the potential response is "go play blue", but I'm hoping in the Junk thread you guys get me :)
I'll mention I'm a little light on lands and that I think this makes SFM a bit awkward here. My experience with SFM tends to be "I want to wasteland that guy, but I have to equip :(.", "I have an equip but I could be deploying threats.", etc. I think Megadues could sympathize. If SFM doesn't work out I think I'll try the Doran plan and maybe fill the other 3 slots with.. stuff. (Vindicates?!?!? Another Loam!? Sounds awesome.)
I say Doran because:
-Whenever I think about buying goyf I buy blue Duals instead.
-Doran isn't a grave-reliant beater, meaning I diversify threats vs hate.
EDIT3: Actually, 3 Doran + 2 Vindicate + moving the SB Loam to the MB sounds ridiculously awesome.
Last edited by tescrin; 08-25-2014 at 07:27 PM. Reason: trimming/bolding
Doran was a very good beater and I played him for a solid 3 months to try him out. I really liked him, but when my meta started to wane of Delver/TNN decks, he wasn't as good. He's quite terrible against STP, sure, but he is way above curve and has definitely won me games.
If you're looking for a solid Junk build like back in 2009, I suggest:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower/Knight
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 STP
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sylvan Library
4 Extra
23 Lands
Realistically, this is the basic frame we're all working off of. Like Warden said, you're just trying to decide if you're going to be a grindy deck, a combo deck (like Depth/Stage), a SFM deck, or what have you. The thing is, are you just trying to get a decent matchup all over, or crush combo maindeck for your meta? It really depends. An aggro Junk build like this is just going to roll over to the control matchups since you don't have any long term card advantage in cards like SFM, Lingering Souls, and others.
PS: Just buy Goyfs after you buy blue duals. Borrow Goyfs until then.
-Matt
Yeah that list looks pretty soft to miracles. If you wanted to shore that up you could do like Matt said and go minus like a goyf, plus 3 lingering souls, and maybe like +a sword of X&Y just to randomly draw? SoFaI is pretty solid against miracles
This is mostly aimed at Megadeus and slighty more DGA oriented but; how does Vindicate fair for miracles? I feel like the 3CMC and ability to cut off white basics would be abnormally strong for a stone rain.
Aside from that, I'll keep brewing and let you guys know. Getting used to all that mana SFM requires is a pain but I'll admit that shutting down a horde of goblins w/ BSK or taking over a game with Jitte is pretty brutal. Thanks for chattin'
It's fine. It's tough for them to have a 3 for CB, and it kills everything so if nothing else you get to own a Jace with it
I have been playing the same 75 I posted here for the last few weeks.
Last week went 3-0-1 again, ID to Miracles to split the prize but we played it out and I was on the wrong end. Yesterday went 2-2-0. I beat UB Tezz (haven't lost to it since picking up this deck) and Smallpox (all hail Bob & especially Sylvan Library whose CA _almost_ killed me, but I'd probably flat out lose w/o it) but lost to UWr Miracles and Food Chain.
The Food Chain matchup feels okay, he just had all the answers for me every time. Am I mistaken?
Miracles however, seems rough still. I'm debating adding a Choke or two to my board. Armageddon is also a little tempting, but I suspect the extra mana isn't worth it considering there aren't a ton of other decks I'd want it against (and I'm not not sure what else I'd want it against anyway). I have no idea to cut from the board though, as I've like all of it at one point or another.
Would I be correct in assuming that 12-post is not so good a matchup?
12-post, in my deck, is an excellent MU. I have a 1x Loam with KotR for Wasteland spam. It creates an exceptionally hostile environment where I can walk into multiple crop rotations and still lock them down.
Matt's Goyf list needs to kill them pretty quick and I'm not sure how it'd feel. Lily's help for sure (ult on lands or edict on their fat) and simply having a good clock helps. Decays help for Pithing Needle on Wasteland. DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF GOING FOR BSK. At least not unless you accidentally drew it. Repeal is brutal. I ended up drawing the match because the first game took so long (couldn't equip BSK, couldn't get a fast clock.) The second and third games I learned my lesson and beat him to death quickly; going to turns G3 with him at 10 and me about to untap for another 6.
If Post is a problem or you think it will be, have a loam or two in the side. They're great for MUD, Jund, Shardless; you name it. It's even great for Delver and such. Sucks real bad against combo, Miracles, Burn, and a bunch of random other MUs. It's quite good on D&T too (you get your lands back and start turning the tables if they don't draw enough plains.)
Knight is very good in the 12-Post matchup, but since few people are playing him, here's what you've got to do.
1) Pithing Needle is great for Candelabra or Top. They're a pretty derdle deck.
2) Aggressively get rid of their SnT if possible. Drain their hand.
3) Get a clock going, save STP for Titan if you can.
Liliana is quite good, Decay is a tad underwhelming. Since PrimeTime is bigger than Goyf, going for Feast and Famine is also quite relevant for just getting as much pressure on board as possible. It's definitely not an easy matchup, and sometimes they can just lock it up like 43 lands.
As for Miracles, my board in total looks like this:
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Meddling Mage
What can realistically come in? 2 Needle, 2 Grip, 3 Teeg, 3 Meddling Mage, and if you wanted to, 2 EE if you had room. This build ensures that Top is rarely active or lives due to Needle, Decay, Grip or hand disruption; Teeg prevents all; their good cards and Mage can name Terminus, STP, or Jace. Backed with protection in the form of equipment as well as all those abilities, it's in Rock's favour.
I'm not saying it's a walk in the park. I'm not saying Miracles can't recover or just Entreat off the top. I'm just saying you have tools to fight all of their major angles of attack and they have few cards to bring in against us.
BTW - Glory to Sylvan Library.
-Matt
I've thrown this together fairly last minute for tomorrow to play at my LGSs weekly legacy night. I like to play non-blue decks and have been on Jund for quite a while and tend to play Junk Nic Fit a fair bit too. Thought I'd give The Rock a go!
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Ploughshares
2 Lingering Souls
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Chains of Mefistopholes
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Any thoughts or suggestions?
You've got a lot of Graveyard hate. I think you can afford to drop some of it from your board. I would suggest a sweeper of some sort in it's/their place.
I'm also a little concerned on your costs. Your list looks to be very dependent on sticking a shaman, or them to just go a little slower allowing you to get to 3 mana unmolested, to ensure that you're up and running. That's something that testing will show. My concern there could be entirely unwarranted.
Library becomes a quite-a-bit worse when you have Chains in play. I suggest top in it's place as you'll want both abilities in some match-ups but would not be able to use Library with Chains in play.
If you're using Chains I suggest looking into getting a second. The real power's the second. I'd also suggest adding Mikokoro, Center of the Sea to your land toolbox as a way to force its activation. If you stick two you can draw during their draw step to force the interaction (potential lock). As a side note, your Loam would be exempt from this making it not effect you at all.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Piloted the deck to another 3-0-1 event this weekend w/o dropping a game (and ID in r4 to get out and get drinking). Only changes I made to the list I've been using was -2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Enlightened Tutor. I wanted two needles, but I only had one, so I went with the e-tutor in its stead.
R1 - Deathblade. Don't recall much of G1 other than it being a slog but a Stoneforge Mystic dual wielding a Sword of Fire and Ice + Sword of Light and Shadow well wreck your house when you finally get it online. Can't recall much of G2 at all.
R2 - My nemesis: UWr Miracles. G1 I get a T1 Deathrite into T2 Bob and then right the card advantage home. Probably helped that he was tight on mana too. G2 was pretty similar, but timely Abrupt Decay to deal w/ Thopter Foundry or Counterbalance so I could land my spells or hit for damage got it done.
R3 - High Tide. G1 opponent seemed to draw poorly and I just brought the beats as fast as I could. G2 I kept a hand because it had E-Tutor in it. He Preordained his T1, I played Scrub and passed. He Pondered into Divining Top. EOT I tutored up the Needle, stuck it on T2, into T3 Lili and before finally sticking some threats.
Not sure if I'm getting lucky with all the success I've been having with the deck since I switched to it, or what, but I'll take it :) Now if only I'd stop spending my winnings on EDH cards and instead save it up to start working on getting some Goyfs...
This is all terrible advice. Going in order
1) No, Chains and Library don't play nice when they're on the battlefield. However, Sylvan Library kicks a mean dick when it's on the battlefield. Chains of Mephehrghredeles kicks a mean dick when it's on the battlefield. If you stick either, you're doing great in terms of winning the war. So what if one's a dead card while the other is on the battlefield? "Being dead sometimes" is not a quality that's exclusive to these cards, and honestly the odds of seeing both is exceptionally low for the most part. Yes, you may want to side Sylvan Library out and side Chains of Mephistopheles in against some combo match-ups, but that has nothing to do with the interaction between the two and everything to do with the individual cards' effectiveness against your opponent.
2) Sensei's Divining Top ≠ Sylvan Library.
3) Two Chains is incredibly redundant and does nothing for the deck. Contrary to popular belief, Chains of Mephistopheles is not the end of the world for any deck. It can very much so be played around and removed. It's not a legless Spirit of the Labyrinth with indestructible. It's a legless Meddling Mage that "names" multiple spells, but has the inability to hit the cards you care about. It doesn't stop the kill. You don't hit turn two, drop a Chains of Mephistopheles and cackle your way to victory. It hurts, it always hurts, but it doesn't win. Chains of Mephistopheles is not your front line hate. It's very good support. Dedicate sideboard slots to cards that actually matter like Gaddock Teeg and Scavenging Ooze or whatever.
4) You would weaken your mana base and put above other utility lands a mediocre draw engine that only works with two cards in your sideboard?
5) Same thing except Loam is actually good on its own.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
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