Post the list.
Matt, I know mentioned something a bit back, when's the rehaul happening? The list has changed so much in the recent months. Not sure how big forked bolt will be in the next few weeks, but I know dark confidant is not well positioned nor is knight of the reliquary. What's the reason for knight not being good nowadays?
The rehaul has stalled since the format changed again.
Sorry for any mistakes/brevity. Im in class on my phone.
Knight is not as well positioned due to Deathrite and STP with few ways to protect her. Maverick has Mother. It isnt known how much Forked Bolt will stay in the format, but I expect to see more Hymn.
My re-rehaul looks like this:
4 drs
4 sfm
3 goyf
3 rhino
3 confidant or Liliana
3 thoughtseize
2 therapy
3 stp
4 decay
3 sylvan
2 lingering souls
1 gsz
1 solas
1 sofi
1 jitte
3 bayou
2 scrubland
2 savannah
4 heath
4 catacombs
3 wasteland
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 dryad arbor
3 teeg
1 ooze
3 carpet of flowers
2 zealous per
2 ee
2 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
Basically Im not sure if you want Liliana anymore. Shes only good against Miracles ( better than Rhino likely) but still fragile. With more Delver, specifically, back in Black, rhino is a threat they cant remove amd handles TNN, liliana may or may not amd dies easily.
However, boarded against miracles, its a fucking Nightmare matchup. Confidant is exceptional in the match since he bites removal or draws so many cards. He could turn into an Arena and 2 other something but less forked bolt meams he MIGHT be good enough to come back.
Overall, Miracles is now by and far the best deck, junk may grow into its own a bit more.
But I'm so laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzyyyy...fine, here's the meat of the .cod file, since I don't have cockatrice installed at work, but I keep my decks on Dropbox:Originally Posted by sdematt
<zone name="main">
<card number="4" price="0" name="Green Sun's Zenith"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Knight of the Reliquary"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Siege Rhino"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Thrun, the Last Troll"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Abrupt Decay"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Deathrite Shaman"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Gaddock Teeg"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Forest"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Swamp"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Karakas"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Bayou"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Scrubland"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Savannah"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Marsh Flats"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Verdant Catacombs"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Swords to Plowshares"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Thalia, Guardian of Thraben"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Sylvan Library"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Wasteland"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Tarmogoyf"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Scavenging Ooze"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Qasali Pridemage"/>
</zone>
From that, remove one Ooze and one Teeg, and add 2 Diamonds.
Also I did have a game where I used all 4 Rhinos. One got taken by Hymn, drew into 2 more and ran them into Liliana, and finally GSZ'd for another. The lifegain was extremely relevant and put me in a position where even though he had a 5/6 Goyf, he couldn't profitably attack because I was back at 18 and he was at ~8.
I've thought about trying to shove in SFM, maybe -1 Rhino, Goyf, Thrun...something for 2x Stoneforge, Jitte, and SoFI. I think I'm going to wait and see where the meta as a whole and locally goes though. I haven't really wished I had equipment in any match so far. I probably will make room for a Dryad Arbor though. As much as I hate it without SFM, there were a couple times this weekend where it would have been pretty handy for acceleration. Not sure if I should cut a land or a creature though.
Edit: FFS I can't think about this deck or this thread without getting that song in my head now.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I honestly still view the deck as poorly positioned vs. Miracles. Maybe rhino is enough to swing things; but at the last SCG I was 0-2'd by miracles while landing a SoFaI in both games. I simply couldn't connect with a dude more than about twice. I think instead of Souls and maybe Confidant, I'll be on Blossom the next time I'm in junk; since having every card type in a deck sounds so attractive with Goyf, and Blossom helps break Miracle's game plan where Souls feels like you're still losing cards.
Either way; I'm currently enjoying Esper as a means to go from about 0% win rate with Miracles to 85% (might go down with more data points)
Any deck that wants to win with creatures is poorly positioned against Miracles. Still, I think Junk is in all the right colors to give them a lot of headaches with Teeg, GSZ, and Decay. I'm going to be trying Mastery of the Unseen in the board because it seems like a great way to play around Jace and Counterbalance. I may also go back to good old fashioned Extirpate as well.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I mean, a consortium of hate pieces like Teeg, grip, needle, thoughseize, sylvan and decay is pretty decent.
Yeah, we just have so many cards that are incidentally good against them main and after board you can reach a critical mass.
In your maindeck you probably have:
Stoneforge Mystic (puts a permanent threat down in form of equipment, often uncounterable)
A resilient flying token producer (usually Souls, sometimes Bitterblossom, something that can't get wiped out by a single Terminus)
Abrupt Decay (kills Counterbalance)
Deathrite Shaman (accelerates, clocks, makes Snapcaster bad if they play it)
A permanent-based card draw/selection engine (Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, SDT)
Hand disruption (even though they play off the top of the deck, a t1 Thoughtseize can wreck a lot of their hands)
Wasteland (this can really matter if they are light on fetches early)
You might also have:
Tarmogoyf (early clock)
Green Sun's Zenith (Gets around counterbalance, nice vs Terminus)
Dryad Arbor (uncounterable creature, fetchable off GSZ/fetches)
Liliana of the Veil (pressures hand and board)
Qasali Pridemage (ok, I'm probably the only guy still playing this one)
Then after board you probably have:
Gaddock Teeg (lol)
Krosan Grip (more CB/Top kill)
Pithing Needle (Jace, Top)
You might also have
Something to deal with Angel tokens (Engineered Explosives, Deed)
Thalia
In addition, their deck might play mainboard red blast effects that are dead vs. us.
Honestly the only mainboard card we have that is bad against them is Swords to Plowshares, and even then sometimes you nail a Clique or Venser or something. Goyf may die to STP, but they have to find it first; Rhino has an ETB effect (nice Jace) and then clocks and lives through a fight with an Angel. Knight can mow down shaky land draws or just clock them.
The key differences between our classic midrange approach and what Maverick does are the token spells, a fuller commitment to a draw engine and Stoneforge, and the full set of Decays. Those are really problematic for Miracles, as they need time to set up their coup de gras and depend on you not being able to keep up with the CB lock, sweepers, and card selection. Souls or Bitterblossom + equipment make Terminus less good, Abrupt Decay turns off the lock, and Sylvan/Bob/SDT balance out the fact that they are pumping mana into cantrips or their own tops every turn. And since they don't pressure our life total, we are free to draw off Sylvan or Bob without fear.
You won't always win it, but it is a very favorable matchup in my experience.
Is Hymn an option for junk again or is there not enough space/other cards take priority?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I am playing a midrangey list currently:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lingering Souls
3 Siege Rhino
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge
I do not think this is an ideal configuration, but it has lots of game against delver and miracles. Without Confidant, you need a little extra help against combo (as you will not be drawing extra discard spells), so I packed the sideboard with more discard and hatebears.
I am relatively new to this deck, and I'm looking at lots of various configurations - I thought your build was neat though.
I think it's fine if you want to go with a 16 creature Jund configuration:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Siege Rhino
3 Sylvan Library
3 STP
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
Or some such thing. I think there's a bit more play with SFM, but who knows?
-Matt
I can't help but think that anything playing souls would want mystic.
Here is my current list, trying to see if there is room for hymn or not:
4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x stoneforge mystic
2x tidehollow sculler
4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kozilek
4x swords to plowshares
4x abrupt decay
3x liliana of the veil
1x sylvan library
1x umezawa's jitte
1x batterskull
2x lingering souls
22x lands (61 maindeck)
I can see the one mana discard getting trimmed to 5 to make 60, and my biggest hesitation for leaving hymn out is the clog at 2 mana. Targeted discard can at least clear the way to resolve a threat if topdecked late in the game. Hymn is a way to push tempo harder.
I'm also still playing liliana x3 in the maindeck. She still seems to do a lot of work, but I could see dropping to 2 and that would make 60.
My real question is this: is siege rhino the real deal? I'm skeptical, but open minded too. I called batterskull wrong when it first got spoiled amd now its a mainstay staple of the format. *Shrug* its a 4 mana non-jace, non-natural order, non-tendrils threat. It seems bad to me. Sell me.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
If I had to modify your list to put Hymns in, I'd go -2 Sculler, -1 Iok; +3 Hymn to Tourach. That way you still have 5x 1-mana discard, and you don't clog at two much more since you're swapping mostly 2 for 2.
As for Siege Rhino, it's a bit harder to justify in this deck over, say, Junk Nic Fit which is reliably casting him on Turn 2/3 and also plays 4 GSZ.
How do I sell you on the threat? Sure, here we go.
1. It's a 4/5, always and forever. Rest in Peace will hurt us, so having something that doesn't care about RIP is cool beans.
2. It's a 4/5 with trample, meaning most of the other creatures in the format die and you get to deal between 2-3 damage to your opponent on an attack. The only big creatures that fight with it are Goyf (generally also a 4/5), large Oozes (not common), and large Knights (also not common). Batterskull is a 4/4 and Rhino can attack/block into Skull and not die, which is a big deal.
3. It "deals" with TNN. Liliana isn't always reliable as a removal spell against TNN, but the drain cancels a TNN attack, and he can trample right over.
4. The drain is extremely useful in racing faster matchups, especially Delver. The drain cancels out a Delver attack, and the 4/5 body is better than anything in any of the delver decks except Goyf. It gives you breathing room against Bolt, TNN, Delver, etc.
5. It's an unprofitable bounce against Jace. They have to dig for removal, they can't just -1 him.
6. Doesn't die to Bolt, Punishing Fires, Spell Pierce, or Abrupt Decay.
Matchups he's good to see in: other grindy midrange matchups (Blade/Jund/Shardless), Delver, Burn
Matchups he's mediocre in: Miracles
Bad things:
1. He's 4 mana, which isn't chump change. Welcome to Daze city.
2. He doesn't discard to Liliana like Lingering Souls does.
3. He has no protection; he still dies to STP
4. He's a literal do nothing against Combo.
Matchups he's bad in: Dredge, Sneak, ANT, Omni, High Tide, etc.
All in all, it really depends on how you want to play your deck.
-Matt
Hey guys, it's been a couple years since I've played Legacy, but I had the chance to jam some side events at GP:SJ, where I went 8-1-1 overall (4-1, then 4-0-1).
First, the list!
22 Land - 8 Fetchlands, 6 Duals, 4 Basics, 3 Wasteland, 1 Karakas
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 4 Assorted Graveyard Hate
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers
I haven't played since before True-Name Nemesis was a card, so I wasn't sure how this list would hold up. I never actually faced a TNN, so I still don't know! I played against: Goblins (W), ??? (W), Elves (W), Miracles (W), Storm (L), Lands (W), Lands (D), Storm (W), Tin Fins (W), OmniTell (W).
I think the deck played great, though I'm not entirely sure about the Sideboard. I basically just threw it together before the first event and was too lazy to change it for the second. I didn't play against Delver or Blade decks, so I'm not sure how I would've fared against those.
One thing I would like to figure out is a strategy against decks that bring in Leyline of Sanctity. Fortunately, the OmniTell player didn't find any, but that match could easily have turned out differently had he landed one. Any ideas?
Convinced? :P
Moose, I'm writing a response.
TNN is a pain in the neck for our deck, since you need cards with evasion to get around him. Liliana certainly helps, but isn't the end all, be all. Zealous is also fabulous against TNN, as is SoFI.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 4 Assorted Graveyard Hate
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers
I see Jitte and Batterskull, but no SOFI. SOFI needs to be in the deck to get around certain pesky cards like TNN, and I'd personally swap Batterskull for SOLAS or SoFF. There will be a rise in BUG, and SoLaS is good against Blade and Miracles. I think 1 Hymn is weak, and ZP doesn't need to be in the main anymore. I'd run something like:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 SOFI
1 SOLAS
2 Sylvan Library
2 Hymn to Tourach
As for the board, that's truly metagame dependent. Generally, I like having a few cards against Delver (Carpet of Flowers is a really good one), Gaddock Teeg does double duty against Miracles and Combo, a couple of sweepers (I use Engineered Explosives since it's good against Delver, Jace if you need to, Entreat, etc.), Krosan Grips against opposing SFM decks and Miracles, and generally some graveyard hate (I'm running light with just an Ooze in the board).
You could go something like:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Zealous Persecution
-Matt
Made a few changes again:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thoughtseize
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library
3 Siege Rhino
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Lingering Souls
2 Phyrexian Arena
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ulvenwald Tracker
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
I'm trying Siege Rhino in the list and no Liliana. Rhino isn't as good as he was in the Cruise meta, but he's still a WAY bigger threat against decks like Shardless and Delver decks. I upped the discard count in the maindeck to combat combo and such, and to have more interaction in the early turns. I was thinking I wanted to shoe horn Hymn back in, and essentially, Arena could be Hymns and Therapies would turn back into Dark Confidant. I want to still run Confidant but I only had 2 slots left if I wanted to keep three Rhino. I figure they'd be better as Arenas if I can only run 2.
I know Rhino doesn't have that same 4-mana "win the game" feeling as JTMS and Natural Order, but it is the only one that actually can upon resolution. I won three games off a GSZ for 4 at GPNJ. The reach shouldn't be discounted.
Matt, any reason why you only run the one GSZ? Especially with so many higher CC cards in our deck now, I've really liked more GSZ because it gives us extra pieces of T1 ramp.
Your curve is too high to run Confidant without harming yourself for serious damage a high % of the time (plus TS, arena, and fetches). I disagree with Phyrexian Arena although the throwback makes me smile.
Since you have access to basically any junk card, I would consider this the creature shell:
4 DRS (g)
4 Goyf or 3:1 Scavenging Ooze (g)
3 SFM
3 Rhino (g)
3 GSZ (11 g targets + 1 arbor)
My personal spin would be to cut the Lingering Souls + Therapy package. LS + Therapy = higher risk-reward that what I'm suggesting below. I like boring consistency.
3 Cabal Therapy + 2 Lingering Souls ---> 2-3 confidant + 2-3 inquisition
2x Souls without Liliana is a bit weak, but that's just my perspective. I feel Confidants fit in this alternative mix because your curve is considerably lower (no arena, no lingering) + there are a lot of 1-drops with TS, GSZ, and IoK. Also, with 3 GSZ in the list, you have the option to shave out that 3rd Teeg for a business spell or some anti-blue powerhouse like Thrun. The remainder of the deck looks to follow your tried and true method Matt. Perhaps shave Library #3 for another Confidant? Not sure.
Thanks for the rundown sdematt. I think I'm too committed to Bob for rhino, but I like your points. I think I prefer a more tempo approach also, and siege rhino isn't exactly tempo (not in legacy.)
So I will be doing this:
-2 sculler (to sideboard)
-1 iok
+2 hymn (gets me to 60)
Sideboard for now:
1x sofi
1x surgical extraction
2x sculler
2x choke
1x zp
1x deed
1x teeg
1x thalia
1x pulse
1x pithing needle
2x kor firewalker
1x open for grave hate
Is scavenging ooze legit as grave hate or should I use a faster card like relic of progenitus?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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