Does anyone run main board Thalia anymore? Or is it not worth it with the high amount of strong 2-4 cost non creature spells in these colors?
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I have tried playing matches with a traditional Rock list (way more spells than Maverick) with maindeck Thalia, and I just found that the dis-synergy with the rest of the deck wasn't where I wanted to be.
In my experiences with this deck lately, Liliana is the key to winning a lot of matches. Thalia was consistently slowing me down from disrupting my opponents and felt clunky with discard and abrupt decay.
I would certainly play her in a more typical dark maverick list, but either in the board or not at all in Rock.
Fair. I just keep thinking of how sick a DRS into Thalia plus wasteland opening is and it makes me wanna play her. Maybe I should just be playing maverick though
Agreed in general. I tried her in the main, and she was *ok* but I would have rather had stronger fair games. The difference between hatebears, discard, and counterspells are that Discard/Counters are good enough to main without building around them, where as hatebears just kinda... blow.
I prefer Hatebears in the side simply because you're unlikely to lucksack your way to Thalia against Storm G1 unless she's in an already acceptable keep. In the side you know the MU and what a keepable hand looks like; and this has been my general feeling with anything but 1CMC discard or Liliana in the deck. Unless they're already so nice to have in the main that they help make hands; things like Thalia, Blind Obedience (I tried that), MD Teeg without GSZs, and similar; are just hoping you lucksack into combo-wins which is why it weakens the deck as a whole.
I also agree with Lily. If you keep the board relatively clear and land her, it is very hard for people to come back unless they happen to be a Lingering Souls deck (which is basically only the mirror.) The thing about Thalia and "her" decks, is that they have 1CMC removal and everything else is built with non-creature in mind; where as a deck like Junk wants Decay and Lily to be the workhorses and she gums up the works. She makes for weird sequencing of plays too; where you think "I'm going to slow their removal and establish a board presence" and the opponent drops a Bob or Goyf. Well great, now you're behind and taxing your own removal!
That said, I think she's absolutely killer in the side. I bring her in against all combo (she works on Dredge, Storm, and helps quite a bit with S&T by slowing them for you to chain discard/wastelands.) MMage may be better if you're dedicated to the meta-game or get a lucky/opportune call on an opponent, and Sculler, Canonist, or other bears could make sense in other metas. I will say, this isn't a deck that appreciates her as much against delver or anything. If you have dead cards, sure, but she slows your removal and helps them manascrew you; so unlike Mav or D&T, she is not helpful here.
Despite it maybe being a blurred line of maverick and junk, this is what I'd like to try out. The mana base needs some work so if anyone has any suggestions on what the distribution of duals should be, feel free to chime in:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Serra Avenger
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte
23 Lands with 4 wastelands
I think I'd much rather have something like lingering souls in place of serra avenger even though it doesn't play nice with thalia. Avenger is just so annoying to play with if you aren't using aether vial and dropping it saves you from needing double white to cast anything.
For your current list though this seems like a decent starting point after counting up a rough mana symbol distribution of 13 black, 11 green, and 22 white;
4 windswept heath
3 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
1 bayou
3 scrubland
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
1 karakas
4 wasteland
@tescrin: Excellent analysis.
@Discard: What's everyone running nowadays? 4 TS, 3 Liliana? Any maindeck Hymns/IoK?
I'd also rather see Goyfs in the Smiter slots, or Scooze, or 1 Scooze 2GSZ.
Just about anything else.
Smiter can't swing through Goyfs, BSK, TNN, Stalker, or even Mandrills. He's a board stall at best and putting you way behind at worst. I think Howling Mandrills will give you better results if you want a counterbalance proof 4/4 who can trump goyf but I think Goyf is likely your best bet.
I'll also agree that Avenger looks super awkward; if you want a flyer I'd grab Oona's Prowler, Lingering Souls (despite Thalia), or if you don't want a flyer those are perfect spots for GSZs or more Revokers.
Something to consider is that Goyf, Hierarch, QPM lists used to exist; simply because Goyf gets even bigger (trumping opposing Goyfs) which gives you leverage to decide how the game plays out. I'm not sure why there's no such thing as QPM Goyf list right now; but I'd venture it's DRS and Maverick's faults.
What about instead of Serra Avenger, I play like Mindcensor? It flies, and can blow people out. I'm already heavy on two drops anyway. Also gets to ambush walkers?
Are you not already pretty heavy on 3-drops as well? Nearly every Junk list I've seen seems to have an issue with that slot.
I run 4 Thoughtseize and a single Cabal Therapy at the 1 slot with 3 Lilianas. For a long time I did 3 TS/2 IOK split to save some life, but I got burned a few times when I would IOK a Sneak & Show player and see something like 2 Sneak, 2 Griz, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Volc. Not hitting Batterskull is also a real thing in Stoneforge mirrors.
I like Therapy in the main as a one-of because you very rarely die turn 1, and usually if you're going to die turn 2, you'll know how it will go and can name the card that will kill you. It also has strong utility in Stoneforge mirrors, gives you an out to Bob if you need it, is live when discarded to Liliana and eats Souls tokens/Dryad Arbor if you need.
I love Liliana & Souls but I feel like 2.5 is the right number of each. Sometimes I get stuck with an awkward hand of 2 Lilis, 2 Souls, 2 lands and a wasteland or something and have to mull but feel bad doing it. Especially on the play, it would be nice if one of those cards was a Hymn. But Hymn is only good early and both those cards are great late.
I love mindcensor. I would definitely play it over Avenger. Think about this:
You: Deathrite, pass.
Them: Fetch, pass.
You: Wasteland, pass with everything open.
Them: Fetch. You flash Mindcensor in response. They brick.
You: untap, Wasteland the land they do have, play Thalia. And another land of yours because of course.
However, I think the deck you have will suffer the same issues that my Dega taxing build had: Tarmogoyf/TNN and Miracles. Though you do get access to a couple decays, you're taxing them yourself, and it's only 2 of them in a deck where the only CA is 3 Bobs. And you have no way to beat a TNN besides flying over with Mindcensor or using Mom proactively. (Or SoFI, but it's slow). Mirran Crusader can help a bit with Goyf, but it can be slow as well. And Terminus is a nightmare.
I honestly would explore Bitterblossom in the main in this kind of deck. It Forcefields Goyf, carries equips over TNN, and refuels after Terminus. It's 2B under Thalia which isn't terrible. Trouble is the lifeloss can be a thing with Bob. And Decay is a nightmare vs. Goyf decks. Scooze solves both problems and is a hatebear as well. If you want to try it, of course.
I personally think if you aren't running Goyf you should be running Scavenging Ooze. I also think if you aren't running Sylvan Library you'd better have a good excuse (like playing 3 x Spirit of the Labia)
@Warden
I think Matt runs 5-6 discard. I used to run 5 and currently run 6 (split between IoK and TS; as I don't like seeing multiple TS against fair decks.) I would love to run 7 (which is the absolute max I'd recommend, probably even post-sideboard) but we'll see. There was a time I ran 5 1CMC discard with 2-3 Hymns, but I saw too many dead cards each game, so I'm trying to find that sweet spot. 1CMC discard (as I mentioned a page or two ago) is also nice just as a way to lower your curve and reliably interact with Delver.
I should mention that I only cite matt often because he's the quintessential Junk player of note that we see actually hover around the forum and give advice. I think, in general, your advice is also pretty strong given your slew of wins.
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I'll talk about my list changes a bit on Sunday if they work out. I'm trying some weirdness and still deciding on KotR vs. Goyf; but I think Goyf wins this week despite all of the grave decks I saw at the last local.
I'm still deciding on 22 or 23 lands.. I think I may go 23 with 1 Canopy even in a Goyf list; just because I'm getting really tired of Mulling 1 landers. It's probably just variance kicking me in the balls.
I also think that 3 Waste + KotR or 4 Waste + Goyf seems like the right compositions. 3 Waste with Knight because he can search them (and he makes your land base terrible) or 4 with Goyf because he can't (and you'll have a better land base already than the KotR list, so you have some room.) This and canopy as an "extra" land are things I'd certainly like to hear others talk about.
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EDIT: I think I've refined my question/answer. 6th discard or 23rd land (Canopy)?
Last edited by tescrin; 09-26-2014 at 04:30 PM.
Testing revealed pretty much what I expected last night. I was pretty solid at fighting blue decks, but versus non blue, my men were just not strong enough. I wouldn't hate having hierarch over deathrites just to make my men more formidable in battle. I guess I really should just be on more a maverick game plan. Back to the drawing board for me
Don't tell my boss, but instead of working I played 5 games this morning against Bob Huang's winner from last night (put the deck on TappedOut against my own). I went 4-1, but they were close. I actually really like playing Bob's deck, might be time to buy Volcs. Monastery Swiftspear is the real deal. In one game I was able to play two Cruises in the same turn with one on the table and attack for I think 5 between those and the stuff I did in between (which I think was Ponder and bolt a DRS). Junk did win that game though.
Sofi is completely insane against the deck. Since none of the creatures are big on their own, especially on our turn, connecting with one allows us to clean up their board and draw into more removal/blockers. Since I don't play Goyfs, Swiftspear scares me a bit. If you do it should be less of a problem. Since I play more Souls, Delver is the creature I tend to ignore on their end since half of Souls kills it. If you play Dryad Arbor, don't forget you can fetch it out to carry your sword at the end of their turn. Can be huge blowout.
I really hope someone is playing this deck tonight at our local because I bet it's a blast to play against live.
Lili seems terrible against this deck. Yes, please discard all your cards except treasure cruise and sacrifice an elemental token. Yuck. I think my board plan would be:
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-3 Dark Confidant
-1 Sword of Feast & Famine
-1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague (on human, which hits all their creatures, hence boarding out Bob. Possible you could set it to elemental if Young Pyro has already gotten out of control)
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
Went 2-2 at my local beating Turbo Eldrazi and 4-color cascade before losing to elves and tezz. I think Matt is right about ensnaring bridge, def wish I had that thing a couple times tonight.
I'm planning on going to GP Kyoto so looking to become more active :)
Some questions for all you veterans:
How many Decays do you keep in against counter balance decks?
What's your experience with Krosan grip? What other matchups do you bring it in against if it were in your sideboard?
In modern you side out all your discard for active threats against other Grindy midrange decks, do you do the same in legacy? What decks do you side your discard out against, if any?
This is with respect to a traditional Junk Rock build, goyf bob liliana thoughtsieze etc
Thanks :)
I tend to keep in Thought seize against other Stoneforge decks. Stripping their BSkull and leaving them with squire is generally a fine play
I play Jund, but the sideboarding principles are generally pretty similar.
I like to keep in all Abrupt Decays against counterbalance decks. My reasoning is this: they don't always sideboard out counterbalance. If you get counter top locked after boarding out some number of decays, you'd better have a way around it; and abrupt decay remains a versatile answer to Rest in Peace/Counterbalance/Angel Token/Blood Moon/Top if they fetch etc. Also you never know if you might need to kill a thopter assembly (or was it foundry?) If they start sword of the meeking thopters.
Krosan Grip is a great card to board in vs Miracles, UWR Delver, Stoneblade Decks, Tezzeret decks, Affinity, Painter, Death and Taxes, Maverick, the mirror match, and many others. It is worth playing in non e tutor board if you don't want disenchant, and sometimes worth playing in an e tutor board as well. Some people prefer to play Pithing Needle of Phyrexian Revoker and forgo Artifact/Enchantment Removal, but I think you definitely want 1-2 slots.
The faster aggro (Delver, Tribal) can justify taking out your discard. Usually you have things that are just better in the sideboard like Golgari Charm, E Plague, or other sweepers.
You probably want to board out pinpoint discard vs other midrange while leaving in Hymn if you play it.
Hope this helps!
Last edited by ironclad8690; 10-01-2014 at 01:34 AM.
Thanks for your post!
Against Counterbalance decks, namely Miracles, you want to keep all your decays in, in my opinion. Here's my reasoning. If they do the plan of boarding out Counterbalance to bring in stuff like Rest in Peace, you want Decay for that stuff as well. If they board out Counterbalances for more instants and such, you still want Decay to plug Angel tokens at times, or just to hit Top. Nugging Top in response to fetchlands is one of the key interactions that we have to getting that bloody thing off the table. The selection it provides is insane - it's similar to how every time, they should Force of Will our Sylvan Library. All in all, keep your Decays in. They can range anywhere from being amazing to being mediocre, but you will want them.
Grip is a VERY good card and at times, sees too little play. Where do you want it? Counterbalance, but mostly for Top. It hits Batterskull and other equipment. It can also be clutch against random cards like Smokestack, Moat, Humility, etc. It can be relevant against Storm, as well as Omni-Tell (which WILL come back because of Dig Through Time...the deck is very solid. Pack your Grips and Teegs, people) and Sneak Attack. It's most relevant, matchup percentage wise, in the Stoneforge mirrors since the other decks can remove the creatures, but hardly ever the equipment.
Usually, in mirror matches like Jund, I take out my discard. My reasoning? IF the matchup is going long, you don't want to draw discard if everyone's hands are gone. You want solid threats that'll stick or more removal for their threats. Against Stoneforge decks, you can shave discard, but like someone said, you want to sometimes take TNN/Batterskull/Jace out of their hand. In my case, I shave Inquisitions of Kozilek and keep the Thoughtseizes in, but also bring in Grips/Zealous Persecutions (for TNN/Souls/Equipment).
-Matt
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