[Deck] The Rock

[Warden]

I don't know, combat tricks aren't irrelevant; it's just they've never been on a useful modal spell outside of something like Funeral Charm or Lightning Bolt + fire strike.

Removal + card draw + falcon-punch a thalia, seems ok.

The real issue with the card is something along the lines of "Would you run this over Liliana? Lingering Souls? Vindicate? Library/SDT?"
And for Liliana.. it could be a maybe. The ability to not only cycle your removal but to draw with it could allow us to overload on removal slots to contain opposing decks and then find threats.

I could see people trying it as a 1-2 of until they figure out if it actually works or not.

The color requirement asks for a lot. If you do the removal option, you have a harder to cast Oblivion Ring that can't hit Emrakul. If you do the card draw, you're paying more mana than sign in blood. The flexibility of these very different spells creates the premium cost. Unfortunately, I don't think it's worth paying the premium. If I wanted value, I'd look at existing options or Gatekeeper of Malikar type flexibility.

[sdematt]

I don't think the modes are good enough to play, realistically.

If it read like this:

BWG

Choose 1:

-Destroy target non-land permanent with converted manacost 4 or less.

-Target player discards two cards of their choice. If they discard a land, gain 3 life.

-Draw 2 cards. Lose 2 life.


I'd play the shit out of this.

-Matt

[Goblin Cabdriver]

Abzan Charm WBG
Instant [Uncommon]

Choose one:

Exile target creature with power 3 or greater.

You draw two cards and you lose 2 life.

Distribute two +1/+1 counters among one or two target creatures.


Basically a two-mode spell at best. I can see it in some metas because it kills opposing Delvers and Goyfs or digs for answers against some combo decks. But maybe a one- or two-of at most. Costing the same as Souls or LotV is rough, as is essentially not having a third mode.

Damn, I was hoping this charm would be the legacy card of the set.... But it's no good for us. The first mode should have been plow. Right now it just says 'exile target goyf'. It's hard to depend on a 3 color removal spell too with all the swords flying around. Nice, versatile card in other formats though, it's good no matter what shape you're in. Awesome limited card!

[Claymore]

I've been out of the game for...a long time now. Recently moved to a city that actually plays legacy, any good Goyf Rock lists floating around? Saw sdematt's list on page 307 but I lack USea and mages, which seem to be a critical part of the sideboard plan...

[tescrin]

I guess. MMage is decent; but you can just swap for a scrub and a triplicate Thalia, she's good in every MU you'd use MMage in, better in Storm, worse in S&T, you get the picture.
MMage can also somewhat be substituted for Tidehollow sculler (as they often do the same thing.)

[sdematt]

I've been out of the game for...a long time now. Recently moved to a city that actually plays legacy, any good Goyf Rock lists floating around? Saw sdematt's list on page 307 but I lack USea and mages, which seem to be a critical part of the sideboard plan...

If you lack the Seas, I'd run a SoLaS if you don't run one in the main, and 2 extra pieces of 1-CMC hand disruption. Reasonably, the Sword will protect Teeg, and the discard will be proactive against Combo. Thalia is also fine.

Good to see you back, Claymore.

-Matt

[tescrin]

I forgot to mention that. MMage's synergy with Teeg should be replaced by something (like SoLaS) to force miracles to have an answer on hand. I play a bit weaker to fair (or to elves or something) than Matt and have a sideboard like:

3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Cage
2 Spellbomb
2 Discard (5 main)
1 SoLaS
3 Sweepers*
*[EE, Deluge, ZP, or Charm, depending on what I convince myself of that day; though I have a preference for Deluge since I don't see elves much.]

That said, as normal with boards, it's always shuffling a bit. I was a big EE guy until my list looked more like Matt's, and now I'm unsure. Deluge is certainly a nice catch all but bad against Miracles and Elves by comparison.


You'll notice that it lines up with each of Matt's suggestions. I'll probably try and get the 6th discard back into the main for a 4th sweeper in the side.

[jim111589]

so heres my deck. i do really well agenst fair decks but not reall good agenst S&S and the like. thoughts?




4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls


SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

[tescrin]

:s I would have to imagine it's play error (including bad keeps.) That list should have no trouble at least going 50:50 with S&T, if not a lot better. You lilies, Knights + karakas, thalia in the side, and 6 discard; Maze and Souls are good attrition elements. The main difference is Triple goyf where I had a SFM and equip, and something else (Bojuka bog?) and a mildly different removal package (4 3 3 instead of 2 4 4)

Seeing how similar it is to my list from two-three weeks ago the key things are:
1-Fetch basics G2/3 and get DRS online. Don't lose like that. Don't side out Decay's either.

2a-Try to keep hands that screw with S&T. If they can't profitably S&T (Except a god hand with S&T, Sneak, and fat.) This means, KotR, Karakas, Lily, maybe discard that can hit Sneak.

2b-Related to the above: Don't blow your load unless you have to (this is a good lesson in general.) You want them to screw themselves; put them in the position to gamble and eventually you'll either win or they'll gamble badly (or they'll have the nuts and you die.)

2c-Related to 2a & 2b, force them to discard the fat, not the enabler. S&T can not only help you/screw them, the fat is what wins. topdecked Sneak does nothing without the fat. You could say the same about the enabler, but in this case only 4 of their enablers matter to you. Feel free to gain two off of discarded fat if you have time, though I'm not sure if it's worth doing over hitting them for 2.

3-You're aggro, remember that it's a race. Goyf before Bob, SFM before KotR, etc..

4-Aggressively wasteland any red sources you can. It won't happen often; but it's crucial to keep them off red.

Bring in Thalia, Teeg, Tutor, Needle; drop Loam, Plows, probably Jitte. Depending on your position Needle may be better of Gris than on Sneak. I.E. if you have a bunch of Souls + Lily, you can just eat anything that comes down and force them to Sneak you.

Feel free to swap Choke for Ensnaring Bridge. It's pretty good against them :). Also, IMO, EE > bridge. Comes down T1 against Storm so they can't discard it out, instant speed against elves, does something against miracles, and it's even probably better for Merfolk and the like (where you can get nasty 2-for-1s or better.)



I like your list, but IMO you'll eventually have to face facts, running no library manipulation with all three big threats will start costing you eventually I think. I had tops which were nice for Combo if you slowed them down at all (as I could dig *a lot* for hate.) Library gives you an (arguably better) way to do this.

The reason you have so much action in your deck is because you lack the ability to play from the top of your library well; which will eventually start costing you against fair and unfair decks alike. The best course of action on that front is to drop SFM, Goyf, or KotR and swap in said manipulation; which would give you a near identical list to one of mine.

[sdematt]

In general, I can say the matchup isn't wonderful. Sometimes you flat-out lose.


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls


SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

You're already running Knight, meaning you're leaps and bounds above the rest of us in this matchup. If you want to reliably screw them, your sideboard is good but requires more Pithing Needle to shut off Sneak Attack. Krosan Grip would also help, especially with the few amount of red sources (Grip Sneak in response to fetch, etc.).

I'd move your sideboard to:

SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Most FaF to the maindeck and bump it to 61. In this matchup, you'd want to bring in:

1 Grip
1 Tutor
2 Needle
2 Teeg
2 Thalia

And bring out:

3 Lingering Souls
4 STP
1 Life from the Loam (although you could debate this).

Meddling Mage really shines in this matchup since topdecks are real things, especially in this matchup. You're pretty well prepared. Basically, if you can, never actually cast Knight since they'll counter it. If you can, slam Knight off of Show and Tell and if you can, Needle the Sneak Attack. Teeg means they have to Show and Tell, Thalia slows them down, and Tutor will help you get Needle. They play no bounce basically anymore, so Needle will really lock them out, as with Karakas.

-Matt

[jim111589]

ok so maybe -3 goyf and +1 hymn +2 library or vice versa?

[tescrin]

That might be alright. I'll admit that I miss my KotR package, I'd say it depends on how much Dredge/S&T you have in your meta vs. how much Delver/DRS, just because Goyf is much easier to cast and much harder to shrink.

[jim111589]

Actually I tried taking the hymns out for 2 library and its working out really well

[sdematt]

Actually I tried taking the hymns out for 2 library and its working out really well

I've been pleased with Library for over 2 years. It really shined during my finish at SCG Seattle over Top, and I've never looked back.

-Matt

[ThediscoPower]

I've been pleased with Library for over 2 years. It really shined during my finish at SCG Seattle over Top, and I've never looked back.

-Matt

Same experience. Library is the card that looks like a card you can probably live without, but then you play 1 in your deck, it crushes someone, and then you play another, and realize how you rarely ever lose with it on the board.

[maharis]

Let's hope this infect trend continues because in my experience we are heavily favored. Like 75%. They are very soft to discard, Jitte, Wasteland, and Lingering Souls.

[sdematt]

Let's hope this infect trend continues because in my experience we are heavily favored. Like 75%. They are very soft to discard, Jitte, Wasteland, and Lingering Souls.

Yeah. After board, it's like:

3 STP
4 Decay
2 EE
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jitte

19 cards that kill stuff or nut them. Hope they have the god hand.

-Matt

[maharis]

Split the finals of a small tournament tonight (3 rounds, proxies allowed) and I didn't even fake Goyfs. Beat Miracles and monoblack reanimator/hexdepths. Played out the finals and lost in 3 to tezzaffinity when I didn't draw any decays or grips in game 3.... ugh.

Had a sick game 3 vs. Miracles: t1 DRS, t2 Teeg, t3 Bitterblossom/SFM. He never was able to find a swords. Definitely think this will be what I run in Edison in a couple weeks, just have to figure out if I'm gonna be able to borrow Goyfs or just go with Scoozes.

[Megadeus]

If Goyf-less, would you rather run the full set of scooze or whatever? Or maybe up the pridemage count? I don't know your list, just kinda curious. I always loved Pridemage. One of my favorite men. Played a full 4 in Zoo a few months back for awhile.

[nedleeds]

Yeah. After board, it's like:

3 STP
4 Decay
2 EE
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jitte

19 cards that kill stuff or nut them. Hope they have the god hand.

-Matt

You forgot Wasteland.