i have to say i tried allmost any math paths (moxen, no mox, GSZ, hexmage, only somehow refused to use stoneforge in this deck)
it actually does make little to no difference (at least mox vs. non mox; stoneforge is a different story i assume)
the deck is quite consistent anyway, and divining top helps a lot in this case
in fact i believe it is all about preference, not even that much of a metacall, sure some builds are better for particular metas but that does not mean that the other build cannot prevail in those metas
actually i prefer 1st turn thoughtseize, and 2nd turn hymn, simply because i want to know what i am up against as soon as possible
i think this gives at least the same, if not more value as a 1st turn hymn or confidant
Just wanted to say gongrats to fisher on his finish. I was his doomsday oponent, its just too bad his results didn't help my tie breakers out enough.
P.s. vindicating basics is just sick...
Vindicating Basics IS sick. Maybe I should go back to running three....
Anyway, on the Mox Diamond discussion, I think AggroSteve summed it up well. It can go both ways, it's really about preference. Being fast can be backbreaking against some decks, useless against others. It never feels good to drop Mox turn 1 into their Ancestral Vision turn 1, but against a variety of other decks it actually is better to be up an extra land/turn than it is to be up that extra (land) card. Those of you focusing on the turn 1 Hymn or Bob or whatever, forgot to mention that there is also that Turn 2 KoTR, which is often too much for many to handle. I run 24 lands, 3 Moxen, 1 Loam, and 2 Top/1 Sylvan for reference, and so far I've never been that disappointed to see a Mox, even in the late game.
In Brian Fisher's deck, I very much understand his choice to avoid Moxen, strengthening his late game in favor of the early rush.
Went 3-1 tonight. Lost match to missing lands (seriously, 7 turns no lands with an active top) and bad mulligan decisions (Kept mox 1 land hand... I knew it was bad but it offered a lot of possibility if it panned out). Played against (in order): Mono Black (2-1), Bant (0-2), Maverick (2-1 | Lost game 1 to Progen... didn't expect it from Maverick. Never lost control next games), and Dead Guy (2-0).
Still running Zenith alongside Mystic. No Chokes in the Board anymore. Deck is still running extremely well. Haven't had a chance to test vs some of the other decks as I was in California this past week and won't be able to much this week (wedding on Saturday) but I will keep you all up to date with turnout. Enjoy and have fun.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Post your list, please.
-Matt
just wanted to say the same, because i am interested in damions GSZ package
Unless he's changed it alot it's posted a few pages back.
It was pretty similiar to my package of SFM + GSZ... Qasali Pridemage, Ooze, BoP, jitte/sword, batterskull.
Haven't relied on Graveyard or Green creatures so I've been pretty resilient to things like Crypt and Relic and the few green creatures made things like Perish not as functional. If anyone's looking at the list, I'd say be careful. I've been lending it to people to test out every now and then and most of them are having the same issues berry had with it. So, it's either super difficult, or I'm super lucky.
Last edited by damionblackgear; 11-01-2011 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Removed List and explanation of list.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I tryed a very simular build, it was really really powerful but very slow. Every game turned out like this: I get pressured alot and either I die with 4-5 cards in my hand all costing a ton of mana, or I stabilize at low life and crush them with a huge knight with a sword and Jitte on it.
Now with a faster format I just don't have that much mana, the deck just folds to wasteland.
And now to something completely different: I can't figure out how good dryad arbor is. Often I just draw the arbor and it's a forest that comes into play tapped.
Getting him turn one is rarely that exciting, since you just get access to more green mana, which I don't need. Same thing applies to Birds of Paradise, how often is getting the bird turn two a good play?
Does it make any sense to play Zenith without arbor and/or bird ?
Just my .02, but I played a GSZ/SFM build last weekend, and wished I had a singleton Arbor and/or BoP all day long. Could have just been the matchups I ran into, but without Mox I was aching for some extra mana so I could follow up disruption with more pressure.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Hi Jaco - Could you please post your sideboard plan for some of the more common matchups with your recent list? Just posting what comes in and what goes out would be great. Thank you.
But The Rock is all that Eva Green always wanted to be!Originally Posted by damionblackgear
In all seriousness, Rock shares some cards with the "standard" build of Eva (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Tarmogoyf), others have been tried in Eva (Bob and Top), albeit not very successfully, it would seem, and finally Vindicate is basically an upgrade over Sinkhole/Maelstrom Pulse. It's true that Rock normally plays a slower, more controlling game, but against some decks, and with some opening hands, it plays out very much like Eva. Except its mid to late game (if the game lasts that long) is much better.
I agree with what you said on Mox.
I know that's a joke but I don't think are people aware that Rock was a B/G ramp deck. Ramping with Birds of Paradise, Yavamaya Elder, and the like to play large threats the impacted the board quickly. The last Rock decks that I remember seeing played Spirit Monger as a finisher. Then it became popular to maximize on threats instead of Ramping. Thus, changing the decks playstyle and basic premise (a.k.a. We became a new deck). Mind you, this was an extended Deck as well.
We're also not PT Junk (although we are about as similar as T.E.S. to AnT) as it was an aggro deck that used creatures that would defend themselves (regeneration, protection, or be large) and usually ran 14+ (pseudo)creatures (Spectral Linx, River Boa, Simian Grunts, Call of the Herd). It could be best described as being Dead Guy splashing green (which that thread talked about for a while when every deck was trying to run Goyf). This was also an extended deck.
We got stuck with the name Rock because people couldn't differentiate between the different B/G/W lists and even PT Junk was called Rock (Hence the difference between Aggro Rock, Mid-Range Rock and Control Rock...) and that extended's card pool was very similar to Legacy's card pool for a long time. There was a time where you could play any B/G/W deck and you would be The Rock in either format.
There are actually other decks which were renamed as well due to the ignorance of players. The Truffle Shuffle was actually a control based deck that didn't use Blue. It was semi-successful but still respected enough to be considered when designing a deck.
Currently, Nic Fit is also being considered a Rock deck (before it's even been really run into the world). Oh. Wait... Ramping into a threat... and maintaining position via disruption... That is the closest there is to an active Rock list... I personally like this list and would use that as a starting point if I was going to play this deck... even if it is splashing for Gifts Ungiven.
Technically, because most of us haven't fought it, we're now The Rock, PT Junk, and Dark Horizons. Or are we This one?
Just figured I'd give a quick history lesson.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Top 8'ed a local 40 man tourney today, running my SFM/no GSZ/3 Mox list. Went X-1 and drew into top 8 with my only loss to UW Landstill. He absolutely crushed me 0-2. Of course I got paired against him again in Top 8 and was blown out again 0-2. What are people running in the board against this deck? I know it's not that prevalent anymore, but it seemed like I just absolutely scooped to this build...granted my SB was almost completely geared vs. storm combo and reanimator so I didn't really have anything good against him.
Its just one of those inherently bad matchups like zoo v. merfolk. Whatever you board in, its still a bad matchup.
Give up on the match and focus your attention to other decks that you have a chance of beating. And pray you don't end up paired with him.
What, are you kidding me? UW Stoneforge is a perfectly acceptable matchup. But, you need Grips. Chains makes the matchup insanely favourable, and Thrun helps out a lot. SoLaS also rapes here.
-Matt
Really. I can't beat blue white control for the life of me with rock.
I agree with Avatar...I have a tough time with the Stoneblade variant and an even harder time with the walkers only variant. I could imagine chains being could but I dont think one outlier matchip alone warrants SB slots.
The problem was he had an answer for every single play I made and insane card advantage with standstills/jaces/cantrips. Maybe it was this particular build but every single game I played vs. this guy we both just sat there with empty boards (except he had 1-2 factories that he chipped away at me with). Any time I cast stuff it got countered or STP'd/WoG'd within the turn. Just seems like a horrible matchup. Luckily it's not that popular of a deck.
Also, I think grips are mediocre here. No point in gripping standstill, and EE/Crucible he just gets back with Academy Ruins..
I was running Fishers list (from SCG) for testing and I kinda love this deck. I just made one change and cut one fetch land and replaced it with Bojuka Bog.
So far the Deck runs really smooth against, Zoo. UGX(-NO) or Merfolk. Batterskull is simply the answer to these decks Pre-Board. I also tested it against TES, Dredge and High Tide. While High Tide was pretty close, TES just rips the balls off while Dredge is still a good Matchup. Pre-Board you have a small chance with Bojuka Bog and Batterskull but you still have to be very lucky. With the given Sideboard it was no big deal in the end. Back to TES: Even with Thoughtseize, Hymn and Wasteland he finished me off in his 4th turn... Pre-Board of course. A short look into the SB.. nope, no answers. High Tide was pretty much the same.
So, while this Deck has a good chance against all aggro and most Reanimator or Dredge Matchups I see no chance against Combo (even Elves) if you wanna go with the SFM package.
I totally miss Extirpate in certain situations but unfortunatly I don't see any place for them. Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amethyst might be a proper solution against combo... Null Rod as well since it handles LED, Caldebra, Chrome Mox etc. In the end it leads again to Enlightened Tutor SB.
@Seems Good
against Landstill or other Blue Control Decks Choke might be a good choice. If you run ET add 1 only to your SB, otherwise 2. Or add more Discard and Extirpates. Grip is not needed anymore I guess.
First there will be utter carnage AND THEN CAKE
Are we talking about the same deck? I'm assuming we're talking U/w Stoneblade here. If we're talking Thopters, then Deed is basically your godsend, here.
Yes, sometimes they get the nuts and you can't keep up, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But, if you have discard, pressure, and removal, you should be okay. It's not a matchup I love seeing with Rock (it's more fun with Aggro Loam, where you literally crush them to pieces), but I never had a problem with it, even when it was brand new at the GP.
Again, not saying I love it, but it's not abysmal like High Tide (which is more boring than anything preboard).
-Matt
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