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Thread: [Deck] The Rock

  1. #5741
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    sword of fire/ice

    EDIT: or the MD golgari charms, they are not really needed MD, but in their place i would run a bit more discard

  2. #5742
    MTGO Name: Adelorenzi
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Thanks for the tips guys! I will pull a "Matt Pavlic" and run 3 libraries. Those will probably come out vs the really fast decks like elves for more tiny sweepers, and I will relegate SoFaI to the sideboard to bring in vs true name and goblins etc.

  3. #5743

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I suppose since you are running a ton of shuffle effects (4 Knight, 4 Mystic, 3 Zenith, Fetches), that Library's value increases. I usually run one or two, but I don't usually run Knight + Mystic + Zenith at the same time. Seeing more cards is good.

    However, the more I think about your original list on the last page, I think the Charms and/or SoFaI might be very strong in the main.

    There was already a lot of talk about True-Name, and then it goes and takes 1st at the GP, while 4 of the Top 8 decks had some number in the main. The typical spells you see in Junk/Rock don't really answer it well. Swords, Decay, and Jitte are all cold to that card, with only Liliana answering it once it hits the board (this is assuming your blue beat-down opponent has no other creatures, AND let your 3 mana sorcery speed spell resolve). SoFaI lets you run right by True-Name, while clocking them pretty good. Charm is also very good against it, and has so many incidental upsides that maining it is getting more attractive.

    If you must add Libraries, and preserve the general build of your deck, I'd shave one Knight and/or one Qasali.

  4. #5744
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    What would you cut for it?
    What is Sylvan Library worth....what would you cut for it?

    Nothing.

    Everything!

    Name that movie.

    I mean, if you can answer the equipment that thing may have, or all their other creatures, suddenly Liliana becomes a house. You could also choose to run a number of Engineered Explosives maindeck to combat the Nemesis. EE on 3 hurts us, but don't play into it if you can help it. Also means we can clear Jaces with a DRS out, and doesn't have the same collateral damage Deed does (although, generally, Deed is better against the decks where you want a sweeper).

    3 Sylvan nails the coffin in the control and midrange matchups. I've lost few games with active Libraries.

    I've also cut a Smiter to run a maindeck Qasali again. I've really wanted exalted and Qasali in the past little bit. Murking Equipment has been important, as well as stuff like Moat, and having an exalted Dryad Arbor has mattered too many times not to ignore (example: they clear the board, you drop a single threat, they Jace bounce. You crack for Arbor EOT and swing. If you exalt here, you kill Jace. Too many times, I haven't been able to clear the Jace).

    I'm going to the Invitational, so I'll be tweaking mostly against the defined decks, naming Esperblade with TNN, Patriot, Shardless, Sneak, and Miracles.

    -Matt

  5. #5745

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Qasali mainboard is a good call. I got blown out by a maindeck Moat against Miracles, and I think with TNN winning again we can definitely see more stuff like Ensaring Bridge coming out to fight it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

  6. #5746
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Golgari charm in the maindeck has been awesome for me. I incidentally have more answers to moat, RiP, counterbalance etc. The best part is that no one ever sees it coming. 3 for oned a d&t player the other day, felt really good

  7. #5747
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    What is Sylvan Library worth....what would you cut for it?

    Nothing.

    Everything!

    Name that movie.
    Kingdom of Heaven. I now demand cake and tea! (Let them eat cake!)

    As far as the "meta" if you're expecting a lot of TNN then I'd look at running at least 5/75 as:


    golgari charm
    qasali pridemage
    abrupt decay (hits any equipment and lets you viably race)


    Most likely with an emphasis on the first two.

  8. #5748

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Good to hear, ironclad, it gives me a little more faith in running it main. In my area, legacy is not common, and so my ratio of theorycrafting to play experience is a bit high for my liking. After playing against U/R delver and merfolk, Charm wasn't looking so hot.

  9. #5749
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by Luklinda View Post
    Kingdom of Heaven. I now demand cake and tea! (Let them eat cake!)

    As far as the "meta" if you're expecting a lot of TNN then I'd look at running at least 5/75 as:


    golgari charm
    qasali pridemage
    abrupt decay (hits any equipment and lets you viably race)


    Most likely with an emphasis on the first two.
    How did I miss a quote from my favorite movie?!

    Also, it is worth noting that GSZ + pridemage give you many outs to bloodmoon as well.

  10. #5750
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Golgari charm is just being super useful right now. The -1/-1 is always relevant and the other two modes are usually blowouts when you regenerate your team against a sweeper or combat and when you pick off a stray enchantment ie moat.:. Sweet victory.
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  11. #5751
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    Golgari charm is just being super useful right now. The -1/-1 is always relevant and the other two modes are usually blowouts when you regenerate your team against a sweeper or combat and when you pick off a stray enchantment ie moat.:. Sweet victory.
    I second this, golgari charm is probably one of the most versatile sb cards a junk player can have.. I play 2 in my board and it always gets the job done.

    On another note, how have all the Loxodon smiter lists been doing? I run 2 of them main and I feel that they're good because they can't be countered, but it is a three drop in a deck that's already loaded in that curve. Let me know your thoughts about him, or any other finishers that we run. Thanks!

  12. #5752
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Smiter is super relevant as Lilliana and hymn strategies are picking up again as is the amount of counter spell decks. Without equipment a smiter races a nemisis, which is a real thing:/
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  13. #5753
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Today I was a Giant Shark and won a tournament....that was hosted by me.

    I played Junk and I'll post the list and report tomorrow.

    Played against Painter (win), TES (loss), Affinity (narrow loss), Patriot (win), and Dredge (win), then went to the Top 8 and beat ANT, then Bant in a 2 hour, three game match (which was extremely close), and then lucksacked against my TES opponent from the elimination rounds to win back my own dual lands! How lucky :P

    I'll talk all tomorrow about Noble Hierarch, TNN, Qasali Pridgemage, Golgari Charm, and more.

    -Matt

  14. #5754
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    And now, on to the report.

    My list:

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Tarmogoyf
    2 Loxodon Smiter
    2 Knight of the Reliquary
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Qasali Pridemage

    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Cabal Therapy

    3 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Abrupt Decay
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Sylvan Library

    3 Bayou
    2 Scrubland
    2 Savannah
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Windswept Heath
    1 Swamp
    2 Forest
    3 Wasteland
    1 Karakas
    1 Dryad Arbor
    61

    //BOARD

    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Pernicious Deed
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    2 Lingering Souls
    2 Pithing Needle

    Round 1: Lyle with Dredge 2-1

    I know Lyle is on Quadlaser Dredge, so I know this matchup isn't going to be great for me, but I end up keeping a Deathrite, Dark Confidant, and GSZ hand, with other goodies. He has a really bad first Dredge, then Deathrite shaman picked off his Dredgers, then his Ichorids. Eventually, he ran out of steam and I got Deathrite #2 online. He packed it up.

    +2 Deed, +2 Teeg, +1 Pulse, +1 Safekeeper, +2 Needle
    -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Cabal Therapy, -3 Decay

    I board assuming he may go on the Dread Return plan for Griselbrand to overwhelm Deathrite Shaman. I have to keep a very good double Deathrite hand with a GSZ into Ooze. Cool. He has a double LED double Faithless Looting draw, and proceeds to turn over most of his deck, with multiple Bridges and Therapies. He essentially gets me on turn 0.

    In game 3, I keep a Deed hand with Deathrite and I'm on the play. Cool. If things get fucky, I Deed. I also have Safekeeper and a green fetch. This is important. We start off slow, but he turns over all four bridges in the first 4 turns, and I'm getting worried. Eventually, he makes a critical error. He attacks into my Dark Confidant, I block, and take out all his Bridges. From there, Deathrite picks off the rest of his Dredgers and he can't get back online fast enough. As it turns out, it doesn't matter since I had Safekeeper and would have fetched Dryad Arbor and sacced it to remove his Bridges. No biggy.

    1-0

    Round 2: Doug with Affinity 0-2

    Affinity should be a bye, but I keep a loose hand and get crushed by triple Cranial plating. I never draw lands or removal.

    +2 Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Pulse, +2 Needle
    -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Cabal Therapy, -2 Goyf (in case of Rest in Peace, turns out, he brings in 4)

    I keep a decent hand but never hit much removal. I hit Needle for plating and Needle for Ravager, but then brick on removal. He Needles Deed on a critical turn, right after which I hit 2 Deeds off my Bobs. Cool story. I lose.

    1-1

    Round 3: McBain with Painter 2-1

    Again, I know McBain is on Painter. In game 1, I mull to 5 and have to keep a nonbasic heavy hand, and he lands turn 1 Blood Moon. I scoop to save time.

    +2 Deed, +1 Pulse, +2 Charm (Moons, Revoker), +2 Needle
    -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Therapy, -2 Smiter

    Game 2 is much better. I keep a 2-basic hand and a Deathrite. He lands Moon, but it slows him down. I power out Goyf and Confidant, then nuke his board with removal. He never gets online, but lands Ensnaring Bridge and forces me to Deathrite him out of the game.

    Game 3 is similar to Game 2. I have too much removal, and Liliana murks his team and keeps his hand down. I have Needle on Grindstone, Confidant, double Deathrite, and Goyf when he lands double Ensnaring Bridge. I grind him out.

    2-1

    Round 4: Brett with TES 1-2

    Nothing much here. I get crushed since I have to mull down a bit and don't hit any pressure and disruption.

    +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia, +2 Charm, +1 Safekeeper
    -4 Abrupt Decay, -2 Smiter, -2 Knight

    I think I win one, but the other one I get crushed.

    2-2

    Round 5: Zach with Patriot Delver 2-0

    Zach loses 2-0 because he has to leave and thinks I'd have better luck in the finals. Thanks, bro!



    Because there's so few people, I make 7th seed in the Top 8! Cool! :)

    Quarterfinals: Warfordium with ANT 2-1

    Warfordium has terrible draws and I just hose him with discard.

    +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia, +2 Charm, +1 Safekeeper
    -2 Knight, -2 Smiter, -3 STP, -1 Decay

    I punish him, but I think he takes a game. I strike back with him mulling to 4 (sorry!) and me having discard, Thalia, and Teeg.

    Semifinals: James with TNN Bant (which I helped design) 2-1

    I know James' exact 75 since we built the deck 2 nights previous on Facebook. We figured Noble + TNN and Geist was sick. He rolls over me Game 1 with Noble into Geist into Jitte. Cool story. I draw nothing and die. This game takes 5 minutes.

    +2 Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Safekeeper, +2 Lingering Souls
    -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Cabal Therapy, -2 goyf, -1 Knight

    I know he brings in Rest in Peace and Path to Exiles, but I know as long as I can leverage Deeds and Charms effectively, I can grind out the wins with Liliana. This is what happens. I get into dire straits, but Qasali and a giant Ooze hold off Batterskull until Deed joins the party. Sylvan Library single handedly puts me back in this game, and I manage to squeak it out. This match takes over an hour (likely about 75 minutes). Lingering Souls was crucial in closing.

    In Game 3, he has early TNN and I have early Charm. He gets SFM for Jitte, meaning he has Batterskull in hand. I lay Liliana, then Deed. I kill his Jitte, then make him discard Sword of Feast and Famine. He removes my guys, then drops Rest in Peace. I can't Deathrite him this game. He kills Liliana with a removal play and Batterskull, but I crawl back. I get more ahead on board, but there's a point where I must Deed on 5 and clear my board of Sylvan, Qasali, Dark Confidant, and Souls tokens. I keep Liliana on top off Sylvan and blow the Deed. He drops TNN, I drop Liliana. We crawl back and forth, and I get an Ooze online, but so does he. We fight back and forth with no cards in hand off Liliana, and I drop Souls for 4 tokens and slowly beat him down. He gets more creatures and we trade blows. Eventually, I get to 5 life with him at 4. I make a play mistake where I chump the large Ooze he has, and he sucks up the dead creatures to buy extra turns in the game, where I should have let him swing past then kill him on the crack back. I kill my Liliana to wipe out his blocker, then swing for lethal. This game took just over 60 minutes.

    2-1

    Finals: Brett with TES (Revenge time) 2-1

    This time around, I keep a tighter hand, but I lose to Dimishing Returns squeaking it out. Nothing I could do here.

    +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia, +2 Charm, +1 Safekeeper
    -4 Abrupt Decay, -2 Smiter, -2 Knight

    Game 2 he keeps a slower hand, but I keep a hand with Thoughtseize into Teeg. He Thoughtseizes my Thoughtseize, then I play Teeg and rip Cabal Therapy, saccing a Dryad Arbor to rip out LED and double Ritual. He is hindered, and I draw Thalia. I put pressure on and kill him.

    In Game 3, he takes away my Thalia with discard, but I rip one off the top at the critical moment. Had this not happened, I would have lost.I end up taking the game. The only prize difference between first and second was a Scalding Tarn, so it wasn't too much trouble.



    Thanks to everyone who attended!

    Conclusions:

    -Qasali Pridemage is necessary if you're running a GSZ build.
    -I got Loxodon Smitered out of the game against Bant. Smiter = good.
    -TNN isn't scary if it doesn't have equipment, just be wary and use your Charms effectively.
    -Noble Hierarch > Deathrite at the moment.
    -Sylvan Library won games I shouldn't have won. I drew so many extra cards, it was insane.
    -Teeg and Thalia, backed with discard, beats Combo. I really liked it. To really beat combo, I would suggest 3 more pieces of 1-CMC hand disruption to increase the chance of T1 discard, T2 bear. That play is great.

    -Matt
    Last edited by sdematt; 11-25-2013 at 06:46 PM.

  15. #5755
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    Quarterfinals: Warfordium with ANT 2-1

    Warfordium has terrible draws and I just hose him with discard.

    +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia, +2 Charm, +1 Safekeeper
    -2 Knight, -2 Smiter, -3 STP, -1 Decay
    as we put it while railbirding the finals, "why do you hate fun so much?!"

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    I punish him, but I think he takes a game. I strike back with him mulling to 4 (sorry!) and me having discard, Thalia, and Teeg.
    incorrect! you 2-0'd me. in game 1 i actually had the nuts from about turn 2 on having Duress'd your Thoughtseize, but my Ponder (shuffle), Preordain (push push), Ponder (shuffle), Ponder (shuffle) (thats 15 cards for those of you counting at home) found none of 4 Tutors, 1 Lim-Dûl's Vault, the Tendrils, or the Ad Nauseam. hell, i'd even have taken goblins at that point.

    the magic gods (still) owe me a T0 nuts against you—but congrats all the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    I'm not saying sugarcoat the tournament scene, that's impossible, but for God's sake just act like a damned grown-up. Be polite, play fast-ish but allow for a little thought now and then, represent the rules to the best of your ability and be a good sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
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  16. #5756

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Nice report. As for the Qasali argument, I totally agree. If you play GSZ, you are opting for toolbox approach over pure speed IMO. Adding a Qasali gives you a strong out that is worth including. For that matter, when I'm on GSZ, I usuLly include a Teeg MD as well.

    One nitpick though; your main is 58 cards, and you refer to 2 Knights and 1 Arbor in your report. I assume the Knights were 59 and 60, was Arbor played over a Savannah, or a 61st?

  17. #5757
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Fixed. I always run 61 cards in control decks or decks with tutor packages.

    Twas a good tournament, but hopefully next time I don't win :P

    -Matt

  18. #5758
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    if i remember correctly matt should be running 61, because the difference between 60 cards and 61 cards is allmost none, and with a deck, that uses some toolbox 1 card in your maindeck might change the outcome of the entire 1st game

    i myself run 61 cards in every deck i build, actually it has allways been like that, because i allways hated to run 60 "like everyone else does", but thanks to this thread i have come to realize that it does not grately matter in percentages

    god, i hope my english is still all right.... had a few beers

    EDIT: hahaha just a moment late :P

  19. #5759
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Im glad to see Lilliana getting more play, the card is so good.
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  20. #5760
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    So as a preview to what we're going to talk about on the next podcast, I'm predicting a pretty sizable metagame shift to the following:

    -Combo, in the form of ANT and Sneak and Show (or OmniTell)

    -Control focused on mass creature removal (Terminus based control and Deed/Deluge control, but mostly Miracles)

    -TNN Blade midrange

    -BGx Midrange

    -Tempo Strategies


    The main point is that midrange is going to break off into TNN Blade and the BGx decks that don't run blue, or don't run TNN (so BUG Shardless, us, Jund compared to Esperblade and PatriotBlade).

    Tempo strategies are going to have to adapt to TNN being game over for them, and honestly, so will we. Golgari Charm and Deed are definitely good, but I wouldn't mind have more equipment removal. RUG Delver is likely going to have to run 2-3 Ancient Grudge postboard. Thoughts on the analysis?

    -Matt

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