Weird list for sure, I would go with DRS over Hierarch especially when you're playing 11 fetches to fuel her. 4 libraries is certainly way too many, but I guess 4 basically allows you to ALWAYS have 1 in your opening hand. I like him in most non combo matchups, he's a threat who if not easily answered takes over a game. Flipped he usually becomes a tutor for a beater.Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
I don't understand the dislike of Liliana in this thread. Do none of you play against TNN? Having just a sword to swing past him certainly isn't enough...
The problem with Lilianas is that Junk has a billion options to deal with TNN. There's the obvious Deluge, there's both Zealous Persecution (also excellent against elves and DnT, as well as proactivity with Lingering Souls, although that card got quite a bit worse with Miracles gone) as well as Golgari Charm. There is also Edict, which is cheaper and a faster speed than lili.
Lilianas are fine enough, but she certainly isn't the end-all of TNN removal. She is bad in some matchups, also. All the aggro that came back, for instance.
Tbh, Sword has mostly been enough in DnT for myself.
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Back in the day before DRS, we were trying Noble because it gave exalted, allowing your Goyfs and such to be large enough to swing and kill other Goyfs. But, at the same time, we were also more black focused with Hymn, so Noble not producing black was somewhat of a problem, as well as being a poor late game draw. Then DRS got printed and all those problems went away. The 7 acceleration list means you'll start with a Turn 1 dork the majority of the time, which is basically what Maverick and Bant are trying to do as well. Exalted certainly doesn't hurt. I could use my extra two slots for two Noble and see how it plays out.
As well, recall I played 3 Sylvans and 4 Confidants for a LONG time, and it was excellent. Even in a Decay meta, they're always slamming Decay on Sylvan (they have to), so playing 3 was reasonable to make sure you could land and keep one in play to run over your opponents in card advantage, especially in the early Miracles meta of, say, 2012/2013.
TNN can always be a pain, I just prefer Deluge as my "kill the world" card, along with Zealous Persecutions. I don't think Liliana is the worst, it's just that I'm not super into her (he's just not that into you, girl.).
Is Garruk still needed? Sure, why not? He's great in opposing GBx mirrors, which are going to be plentiful. Jund will come back, Bant +/- Black, Straight BUG Midrange with Leovold, etc. Those decks are hard pressed to deal with spamming tokens, especially if they're Deathtouch Wolves. I would LOVE to bring the Tracker + GR back, since that's awesome at dealing with, well, anything.
-Matt
Thanks for the input everyone.
So I noticed a lot of sideboards have 1 Maelstrom Pulse in the 75 while not having any Council's Judgments. Shouldnt that just be a straight swap just to deal with True-Name Nemesis? Also can sort of get around Wirewood Symbiote, Mom, etc. (As in it isnt a complete dead card).
Don't be so afraid of TNN, there are other boogeymen out there. Double White can be a chore, also. If it's a TNN list, try to race it, that's a good way to deal with it. It's only a 3/1 and unless it's a blade list, it's definitely possible, and if it's a blade list, you can still decay every equipment they play sans BSK, and you can hit the token there, slowing them down on that front also. Play against it more, it is not the scariest thing in the sea.
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Thanks for the input. Its not just TNN, it also gets around Leovolds draw clause which is nice. It just seems like Judgment seems better in the current meta that the WW restrictive cost cant really deter it that much when the upside on the card is MUCH higher than Maelstrom Pulse IMO
Edit 05/11/17: since noone has responded, Ill elaborate. Maelstrom Pulse was a nice catch answer since it can get literally everything and can be a 1 for 2 at times. Now with Leovold, Truename, mom, Mirran Crusader, etc, Maelstrom Pulse isnt a catch all anymore. Leovold and Truename is so popular and Councils Judgment is the catchall answer now.
Last edited by KoDiamonds; 05-11-2017 at 11:16 PM.
All those cards also just die to Toxic Deluge. Maybe Vindicate so you can be flexible in killing lands, too?
-Matt
While I'm still brewing in Bant; I've gone the route of:
* SoFaI [I realize you always run this, but it's notable for getting around TNN and stuff]
* SoBaM [can't block me with BUG/bant, drop tokens for the grind. Haven't gotten to see it in action yet. may be terrible]
* Flying [can't block me with TNN/Leo builds] [I think my list at the moment has 9 flyers, 2 being birds of paradise :p]
* Elspeth [drops tokens for grinding, is a psuedo equip with +3/+3, gives flying to your fat or tokens to finish the game] She happens to counter Jace reasonably as well. I had a guy plowing/decaying/etc tokens so he could keep jace. Entertaining.
* [this may count, but I'm also spamming exalted with 4 noble 3 QPM at the moment. a couple times I've swung for 4 or 5 on T3.]
Everything is geared to be offensive, flexible, and ignore their 3/1 and 3/3 obnoxiousness. Also, on the 4c Control and similar fronts, if you produce tokens (you should be) *REALLY* consider humility in the SB. It is mega effective against the onslaught of Strix, Leo, and TNN. You have to deal with SFM'sequips still, but not her trigger or ability. I landed it a couple of times against Czech pile to hilarious effect.
Rather than play their game, you can simply go around them. There is no reason not to pro-blue these folks out the game with equips, fly with Souls/Blossoms, and I agree with Deluge being a good way to go. People aren't respecting boardwipes as much because the Leo decks don't want to kill their TNNs and neither do the Pyro decks. DRS/Noble decks means 2+ dudes on the field fairly often. I'd probably main a pair of Deluges.
EDIT: In terms of solving some problems, Hushwing Gryff may solve both flying and Strix/Snap/SFM issues, if you drop your SFM before hand.
So, Ive been playing a bunch of games on MTGO and have come to some conclusions in regards to past discussions. (btw, thanks to everyone who replied to my posts and offered input)
A) 2 Sylvan Librarys feel really good. When it resolves, having a legal Senseis Diving Top effect is just killer.
B) Sword of Light and Shadow is really unimpressive. Deathrites eat the creature, life gain isnt relevent, and just isnt a threatening card
C) On the flip side, I missed. Batterskull. Played ~20 games without it and I just miss it. Its just a solid top end threat that is tutorable. Have problems casting Stoneforge on T2 and have it just killed and have a 5 drop stuck in hand? Tutor Jitte if it resolves on T2. Simple as that.
Once I slotted Batterskull back in, Stoneforge Mystic just felt way more of a threatening card. Cant imagine one without the other at this point.
D) The double WW in the casting cost of Councils Judgment definitely hurts. I drew it only 1 game and just couldnt cast it vs a lethal Leovold. So it would have been a clean answer, but it does make mana tight with all the double BB spells in the deck. Jury is still out on this one, but might go back to Maelstrom Pulse in the side. Or maybe Vindicate?
Played another GPT, smaller this time. Went 4-1 in swiss, beating white stax, UB sneak n show, reid duke bug and jund, losing to UR sneak n show. Then beating BR reanimator in top 4 semis, and losing to jund player i beat before in finals, for a 5-2 record.
I'll post a list and report later in the week. Hymn's were good, lingering souls great, SFM lack luster again, bob awesome, equipment okay.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
Different strokes. I played Junk for a good two years straight and every time I put in BSK I felt like it was the worst card in the deck. I'd almost always rather grab the SoLaS or w/e and go to town. Anytime my token came down it was popped and I had wasted 2-3 turns.
But different strokes.
@Tescrin I agree. I cant hate you for running or not running Batterskull. It definitely has its pros and cons.
@Jain Mor, congrats on your solid finish. Looking forward to your report!
Onto another subject, I noticed the recent abzan list that went 5-0 had an Engineered Plague. Im currently running 2 Zealous Persecutions and theyve been solid. However, Plague is pretty intriguing since its a permanent solution to elves, young pyromancer, truename, humans vs d&t, etc. Does anyone else have experience with Engineered Plague? Do you recommend a 1/1 plague/persecution? Or are 2 persecutions better?
I run an ETutor board in any list that has white in it, and I usually include a plague if I have any way of generating black. Comes in for D&T, Storm, TNN decks, Infect, Elves, and just about anything else that reliably has something obnoxious that needs to go away. Storm/Infect may sound weird, but they don't really answer it and it covers bases, especially with E-Tutor being a redundant multiple that can grab more relevant hate if needed.
For reference, my current board, with Junk notations
SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Submerge <- Gutshot, Persecutions, Deluge, or Charm, hard to say.
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Chill <- would swap for Warmth
1 Engineered Plague
Note: My second ETutor only comes in for dedicated combo decks that I *need* the answer. Things like Infect/Food Chain/Aluren/Elves I prefer to grind a bit. So ETutor #2 is only for things like Storm, Dredge, Sneakshow (depends what my main looks like), etc.
Thanks for your sideboard tech. Seems sweet!
Did the 3 mana for Engineered Plague seem a little too much? Seems like it might be a little slow in a matchup like elves or even infect.
It's probably because it's almost 3 at night and it's been a long day; but I ended up typing a small book off your simple question. Short answer: You need other disruption for Plague to matter probably.
__________________________________
E-Plague for Elves is potentially OK if you drop it T2 off DRS and they didn't go off (they can get nut-draws for T2 kills if you didn't know.) I'm currently in Blue (Esper or Bant) and I won't lie when I say Daze/Force/Clique/Evasive make the matchup *much much* better.
Even so, if you start with discard or cage or have a T2 Containment Priest you'll probably be ok for a bit. The Plague is more of a way to slow them down in conjunction with other hate so you have time to set up a Jitte. If you DO get that far, the next most important thing is to kill Wirewood Symbiote, and slightly less important, Quirion Ranger. Not only do each of these potentially ramp them; but they can both be used to Fog Jitte strikes. If you're lucky enough to have Plague + Jitte, it also makes it easier to clear DRS/Nettles.
The Priest/Cage are the more important bits, and you also need to make sure they don't hardcast their fat (In blue, that means holding up Force or something, in B, it means Seizing their hand every once in a while and making sure it's not there.)
Other notes:
* I am typically fine with "overboarding." I like beating combo and I tend to be in good stuff decks that still function with/without half the stuff.
* I would consider swapping a Priest and maybe a "Submerge"/Replacement for Surgicals if I'm not blue. T0/T1 protection is nice.
For Elves:
* I would board in: Pithing Needle, Revoker, 1x ETutor, 2x Priest, 1x Cage, 2x Submerge [in your case, other -1/-1 effects probably], 1 EPlague. If I decide I don't need to board it all in because the deck is well positioned, then the exact reverse order of that is likely the importance.
* Out: slow equips first, then see what I can fit. Things like big planeswalkers, threats who can't swing (confidant probably?) in Junk's case, Libraries. Depending how you feel, Lily may be better or worse than Needle, Revoker, etc. I favor early interaction as you may imagine.
* I tend to approach it as pure control and look to remove every dude I can. No value needed until they're getting value. U gets counters though. You should favor first-turn removal over Discard. I've lost T2 with T1 discard because I thought I had a turn.
* I tend to needle Wirewood as it stops Jitte. DRS is a fine target if they're just draining you to death. Revoker should consider Heritage Druid, but only if you don't have Wirewood problems.
For Infect:
* 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 E Plague, 1 E Tutor, 1 Pithing Needle, maybe a Revoker and Preists if my deck sucks. (Could revoke Noble, and they all block/punch)
* Canonist is *HUGE* in this MU. If you can get a board of Canonist + Removal and then eventually get your Jitte/SoFaI up, you're fine. Canonist removes all of their ability to "get you" on Vines/Hexproof if you're playing right. Remove stuff at EoT your turn of EoT their turn. Never at a time where it could benefit them during combat. Canonist means that when it's mid combat you don't have to hope things are ok, you just go for it.
* Needle for Inkmoth. E-Plague for Inkmoth or Human (depends on the game state..)
This is how making my sideboard in elves/sweeper context plays out:
It is my experience/preference that 2 sweepers isnt enough in non brainstorm decks, so I always play atleast 4, 3 mana is slow so they can't all be 3 mana, so I play 2 zealous persecution/golgari charm (which have especially good utility against infect etc as well) and two 3 mana ones. Since I'm already spending two sideboard slots on -1/-1 effects, spending the two 3 mana sweeper slots on engineered plague seems like a waste when toxic deluge does a similar job (while also killing X/2s in elves too) but is more relevant against other decks like mid range and delver (finished off a liliana with two spirits and then deluged jund opponents drs goyf and BBE to come out far ahead in a losing situation yesterday, felt good)
Deluge is really strong right now, I'd always play two in my deck somewhere at the moment, and that leaves little room for plague imo. However if you are playing e-tutor board then obv plague is 100% no brainer. I moved away from them a few years ago, but since the meta's changed I might give them another go (I do miss humility..)
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
Thanks for the indepth guide. I really appreciate it.
The more I think about it, the more I really like an Enlightened Tutor toolbox sideboard. Gives you more access to sideboard hate when we really need it. Looking at my current sideboard, I would probably do this:
Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
(The changes I made were -1 Councils Judgment, -2 Faerie Macabre, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Garruk Relentless.
+1Engineered Plague, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Humility, +1 Grafdiggers Cage)
A) What do you think? @Jain Mor, I run 1 Toxic Deluge main so my 75 follows your rule of 4 sweepers, two are 2cmc, two are 3 cmc.
B) Im losing % pts vs reanimator since I really liked Faerie Macabre (vs Chancellor). However, it took up 2 more sideboard slots and having access to an E tutor sideboard seems worth the sacrifice. Especially since Grafdiggers Cage is solid.
C) What matchups is Grafdigger's Cage brought in? Reanimator is obvious. Storm for Past in Flames, NO for elves. What else?
D) What draws me to the Enlightened Tutor is Humility. It seems really good vs Sneak and Show, something my old sideboard was definitely lacking against.
E) Im sad to cut Garruk Relentless but until a control list is established, it looks like hell have to stay on the sidelines. Chains + Choke should be sufficient for now when a control deck pops up.
B) I think Reanimator should be ok between Plows, Lilys, Surgicals, Cage, Tutor, and Priest (maybe humility against UB for the S&T). That's quite a bit of stuff. I haven't played BR reanimator really though; but I've done a lot of matches with UB over the years.
C) Cage is OK for any GSZ deck or Arbor deck (maverick for instance.) Not amazing, but it will likely draw a 2-4 mana response, which is good. I sometimes bring it in against Snapcaster decks depending on how obnoxious they are. Keep in mind that it blocks lingering souls, so my boarding of it may not make sense (I usually use Blossom in my decks, or Elspeth for my tokens.)
D) For sure. Humility is also great in any creature MU where you think you'll cast it (not Delver probably) and where you have more dudes/they don't have equips. For instance, Czech Pile almost folds to Humility and they don't realize it. Any BUG good-stuff will likely be upset. Probably don't bring it in against Dark Bant.
E) Yeh, Garruk is fun, but Chokes are more applicable to more MUs I think. I own a pair of Chains but I'm pretty down on the card; especially with Leos all over. Maybe it's good, but like most black cards, it's bad if you're behind.
B) BR can be pretty bad since they can T1 Sire of Insanity or Griselbrand you with Chancellor backup so really, only Faerie Macabre can save you.
C) Yeah, Cage shuts off our souls but seems worth it vs elves and reanimator since were trying not to die lol
D) Not sure if id be comfortable bringing it in against C Pile. I mean, it seems great on the backfoot if they have a bunch of truenames and leovolds. Seems bad when youre ahead. But then again, equipment should swing it back to our favor.
E) Chains is super sweet. So many blue decks that try to improve card quality in their draws with brainstorm, ponder, jace, baleful strix, etc that it just shuts all of it all easily. It can just lock them out on its own. It does shut off our Sylvan Library but shutting off our 1-2of to shut off their 8+ draw spells is worth it. Doesnt shut off bob though :)
I played a game against storm with the E Tutor sideboard and really like it. Game 1 I got ran over turn 3 on the draw. Game 2 I went TS-> hymn -> liliana and won.
Game 3 I lost, but I liked how the draws were smooth. I went turn 1 DRS, T2 Ethersworn Canonist. Opponent had Disfigure end step and won in t3. It was nice though because if he didnt have the exact perfect hand to go off that turn, I had Enlightened Tutor in hand to tutor up another Canonist/choke/ wtv lock piece to lock up the game.
Ill test it more, but my initial impression of an Enlightened Tutor board is really good. Thanks for suggesting it.
B) In that case my recommendation of Surgical was just personal preference. You can easily swap your board to a pair of Fae
C) By all means, I was just thinking about other times I board it in; which recently has been the influx of Snap->Kill-spell spam
Glad you like it! I think sdematt said he's been on one but I'm not sure. The main issue with E-Tutor is the desire to cram a bunch of them in the SB and/or get 2+ in the main in MUs where the CA will cost you. For instance, one against D&T for a Dread of Night/EPlague is pretty ok; but two means if you see the second one, you probably just lost. Maybe I'm too timid on that, but it's happened once or twice and now I only bring both in for the "you're dead" combo decks haha
I've been super enjoying my SB since the mix of cards that do almost the same thing has increased the relevance of it. Needle sometimes comes in when Revoker doesn't, Cage comes in when RiP doesn't and vice versa; it feels very fluid
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