[Deck] The Rock

[zalachan]

Thanks for the new primer sdematt, im loving it!
Maybe you could add the aggro stax version to the list of matchups (kinda like this: http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV...lGRfiavdoIiak9), which seems to be pretty good foil to the contenders in the current meta.

About the deck (midrange, standard version) anyone playing Sejiri Steppe? I'm also considering dropping Verdicts, but don't know what for. I'm considering Elspeth/Path/Loam/Extirpate/Demise, but am leaning towards Witness backup plan. I don't really know what to tuck in, i just don't see Verdicts being that good.

[f|i[p]]

@ sdematt
No, it was spikeymikey who called his list san diego rock..Currently I don't have any name for my rock build. Bur I might be inclined to look for one..
----------
I am not trying to compete with people as regards to experience with the deck or particular cards in it. I am mainly a bgw survival, rock and stax player and have been playing different variants of those decks for years and years.This forum is for people who are new to the deck as well as those who are experienced with it to gain some new ideas and possibly shed some information on certain aspects of the deck. Every ones list has its differences, and as rock evolves, so does their match ups and its a constant learning for all players old and new. No need to be aggressive to point out that you know best..

As for my experience with Loam, Loams were ok. Nothing really spectacular, but the main reason for me to add it was to avoid getting land screwed. I didn't run acceleration which could lead me to slow down with a single wasteland or get color screwed with it.It also gave me the option to fetch a bayou first before scrubland just incase I was afraid of an incoming wasteland. The other uses were just a bonus. I knew it would be good in landstill variants and some control. Loams are quite slow, as well and I normally would side them out vs fast decks.

I never really loam early on unless I have nothing to do on turn 2 or I was afraid of a wasteland or didn't have my 3rd land in hand. Most of the situations where loam helped me was with recurring bog (vs dredge), recurring fetch lands to be able to shuffle the deck and dredging when I sensei and actually see nothing useful.

In honesty, I even considered solitary confinement in the sb, if I was going to run 2 md life from the loam. But I would need to have a cycle land somewhere in there to make full use of confinement. So I kinda dropped the idea. Althoug the confinement idea can still work, because nobody really sb's grave hate for this deck, or artifact and enchantment hate at all in my experience.

Loams can easily be replaced and will be the first one to go when I find a better card that would suit my build with no acceleration.

I remember a tournament report a week ago, where in a rock list or junk list had a single loam and a single cycler somewhere md or sb. and took one spot in the top 8 in a big tourney as well.

Loam will be the first to go if I find a good enough replacement card.

I have 2 - 4 slots open for debate in my tournament list a few days ago. It was the single loam, single ghastly and 2 kitchen finks. Finks never really worked vs burn. It was never enough. Hence I removed finks and would probably put another ghastly and loam main deck for now. So 2 loams and 2 ghastly demise for my current list.Sb is working great for me.If I see any innovative ideas I would probably try it myself.

As I said the mvp of this deck is sensei as it can find all the answers you need. With the right combination of fetches and creatures it becomes a very very important tool for the deck.

[Rainbow Maker]

loam has been great in the mirror and against landstill variants so far.

@flip Have you tried Pridemage. I found him good. I liked him in most builds i put him in

Edit: I have been thinking of naming the deck something like Team Palestine or Team Kenya. But the problem is there isn't red in the deck. Team Tucan?

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I was calling my deck "New Age Rock" for a while. As I have changed and evolved the deck though I stopped calling it that because it's no longer the same deck. The old version I used to play ran no discard with 3x Life from the Loam, 4x barren moor, main deck kitchen finks and Quasali with a splash of red for firespouts. I played that version at the Grand Prix Columbus earlier this year and ended up in 71st (just outside the money, with same points, just bad tiebreakers). Lately I've just been calling it the Rock because there seems to be a general consensus on the cards played in the list and I play a pretty standardized build now.

@Rainbow: Always play hymn over verdict. Sometimes you can get them to discard their only 2 lands in hand and then wasteland/vindicate whatever land they play making for ultimate mana screwage.

[f|i[p]]

@ rainbow maker

No I haven't really tried pridemage in the deck..I'm sure he is useful. But in all honesty I don't see reason to do so, at least for my build. I have 2 EE's , 4 vindicates and 5 1st turn discard. I think thats enough to handle enchantments and artifacts at the least.

Im also thinking about replacing 1 inquisition for ravens crime if I push through with the 2 loams maindeck.

Question to some players... has anyone ever tested imp's mischief?its a misdirection for black...I was just curious.

[JimmyC27]

Re: Dueling Grounds

Anyone tried Silent Arbiter in place of Dueling Grounds? I'm guessing Dueling Grounds is the better pick, but was just curious.


Cheers,

Jimmy

[alphacat]

Re: Dueling Grounds

Anyone tried Silent Arbiter in place of Dueling Grounds? I'm guessing Dueling Grounds is the better pick, but was just curious.


Cheers,

Jimmy

Generally dueling grounds is used against creature heavy decks like Merfolk, Gob, Zoo, and VV. The disadvantage of SA against those decks are two folds, first, it's a creature, thus, can be removed with main deck removals such as swords, path, or burn. It is also 1 mana more expensive than DG, which makes it 1 turn late, and that could just be gg against a fast aggro deck.

[JimmyC27]

@alphacat

Yeah, I figured the removal would be the big downer. The upside to the 4 cc is that it's colorless and not 1GW. I never feel manascrewed with this deck--but I don't run Wastelands.


@sdematt

On your list, you run 2x Path to Exile. How's that working? I currently run 2x Elspeth in that slot, but want to test 2x Path.

[sdematt]

Arbiter costs 4, gets Plowed, etc. Dueling Grounds costs 3 and is much harder to remove. I don't see a real reason to run Arbiter (you're not using Welder/Survival to get/find him).

@ My 5 hour test sessions

So anyway, I playtested with a few guys for quite a few hours today, and it was good. I got in some games with Landstill and Rock, facing down 4C-Thresh, Vengevine (Bant Colours), Goblins, Merfolk, and Thopters.

Since you guys aren't Landstill players by trade (I play Landstill quite a bit when I'm not playing Rock), you're probably most interested in my notes from the games. Here goes:

Thopters:
Rock is very good against Thopers. Not really much to say here except blow up Counterbalance and don't let them Crucible-Wastelock you.

Merfolk:
These were some interesting matches. We didn't board in these games, but mainboard it was interesting. I found that discard was quite good against them, but we're decently vulnerable to Wastelands by them. Their counterspells can be a bit annoying, but they're not running a giant suite of them. I found our threat density rather lacking, and many times I had cleared the board but had no pressure. Add to that the fact that I never drew Dark Confidant or Top and you can see my frustration here. This fact may skew my results, but like I said, I was very threat-light in all the games I played. Acceleration such as Noble Hierarch and Mox Diamond really didn't seem to matter, as I just really wanted to play other things, not Hierarch (I'd rather do first turn disruption than build mana stability).

Overall, I found the matchup to be disfavourable as before. I'm thinking of turning my Hierarchs into something else, probably another land and either 2 creatures (Doran), or 1 Inquisition 1 Not sure yet. Still working on this.

Vengevine

This matchup was rather interesting. We played 5-6 preboard and 5-6 postboard. Preboard was slightly tough, as many times I thought I had the game and he managed to lucksack out of it. Example: I destroy his Survival and Swords two Vengevines. Then he proceeds to draw and hardcast the other 2 Vengevines off an empty hand (topdecked both) and proceeded to kill me. In 3 games, I drew Bog and wasn't able to tutor it up with Knight. Again, really bad luck here. In some cases, I really thought I had the game, but he then just drew another Survival and won. Slightly annoyed here.

In the postboard games, I was packing Extirpates and Dueling Grounds. I managed to Extirpates his Vines and won those games without issue, but on other games I drew into Bog or didn't draw any gas, and sat there as he beat me down with a Jitte on Wild Mongrel. Dueling Grounds was great, but I had no creatures in play and no Maze, so I got beat down by a singular flying Vengevine in one match.

In total, I lost the majority of games because I literally drew absolute crap. I'm pretty sure it was an off day for me and a good one for him, but still, it was very frustrating.

It's a very good deck, I've got to say. After doing this last round of testing, I'd say it's even a slightly disfavourable matchup, to be quite honest. Again, it could be because I drew absolutely nothing, but they can reset very quickly unless you remove their Vines. On the flipside, Landstill is the nuts against it. 4 Deeds absolutely ruins their day.

-------------------

A solid day of testing. The question is: how will our lists change if Survival gets banned?

-Matt

[JimmyC27]

The question is: how will our lists change if Survival gets banned?

-Matt

Post-Survival probably means more Merfolk (and Goblins) popping back up. Would you ever maindeck Dueling Grounds?

[f|i[p]]

@matt

Nice testing results. I always thought merfolks to be even to just slightly postive post board with my list. However I guess games are always dependent on draws. Survival however will always be survival and can win once they have the mana for it.

If you take of your acceleration (heirarchs or mox) you'll end up with a list similar to mine..ive gone to 5 1 cc discard.. and have 4 more slots open for debate. 2 of which I will retain as ghastly demise. the other 2 however will be creatures or loam.

If survival gets banned, I don't think the list would change much. Except fot sb choices. The deck was never built around beating survival anyway.

[sdematt]

Possibly, but what would I take out? I don't really want to fill the gaps left by Noble Hierarch with 3-drops, to be honest.

We'll have to wait and see, though.

Also, just noticed you posted above me.

So far, this is what I think I'm going to change it to. I've added 1 Inquisition, 1 Land, and 1 Doran (just for fat)

Alcatraz

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
2/1 Swamp
1 Forest
0/1 Volrath's Stronghold (I like the recursion since we don't have many threats)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah

4 Goyf
4 KotR
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Doran, Siege tower

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
1 Inquisition
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Doran Rock

(same basic manabase of 23 Lands)

4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran

2 Ghastly Demise
3 Mox Diamond
3 Top
1 Path
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Swords
3 Vindicate

----

I'm quite interested in a Stoneforge build, as I think the recursion/use of equipment could help out in the Tribal matchups (although its slow, having a Sword on the field turns Dark Confidant into a formidable blocker instead of just chumping, for example).

Edit 2: Just been doing some Workstation tinkering, and came up with this. It lacks some of the brute force of Vindicate, but plays more creatures and Equipment, so it has a bit more game against Tribal, me thinks. Of course, you could always change the Vindicates to maindeck Extirpates if you were feeling particularly vulnerable to VV. As well, the Swords could be changed to the Sword of Body and Mind, so you can produce chump blockers (the milling wouldn't matter at that point, since you've getting pro blue and pro green, and you're running Maindeck Extirpate)

Stoneforge Rock:

4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
8 Fetches
1 Bog
1 Maze
2 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas

3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Doran
4 Knight
4 Goyf
4 Confidant

4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
1 Swords of Fire and Ice
1 Swords of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
0/1 Ghastly Demise
0/2 Vindicate
3/0 Extirpate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

What do you think?


-Matt

[Rune]

I don't think the acceleration should be cut. In my opinion, Mox Diamond is what makes this deck competitive because of the 'broken' turn 1 and 2 plays. It's very easy for many blue decks to simply out-tempo you if your deck is clogged with 3-drops and no accel - the game will often end in a loss before you are able to unload all of your hand. The Mox Diamonds also help fix the somewhat bad manabase as well as give you a lot more game against combo. Because of its speed and ability to put a threat on the table while simultaneously playing discard, the PT Junk list is possibly the only discard-aggro list that storm players aren't happy to face.

Just my $0.02

[sdematt]

Thing is, I've found when I tested 3 Mox Diamonds I wasn't hitting them often enough to make those "turn 1 Hymns" so often/special. I think running 8-10 pieces of mainboard discard in the main is enough of a pain for them. I understand where the acceleration can be good, but oftentimes I've found it really compromising: either I get stuck on a land and a Mox or have to pitch a land I don't want to, or I'd rather be playing something else other than Noble (Thoughtseize, etc.). I'll give it a try without, and we'll see.

-Matt

[Rainbow Maker]

the reason why i might atleast test verdict over hymn is that i have been getting beaten up by no tommorow with wasteland. Yes it's nice to hymn because it's so powerful. but one wasteland can sometimes just wreck you. it's the only double black card in my list. I tried Doran and he was interesting. I'm having the same problem of slots i feel just don't have that much umph. I might try doran again as he would make goblins stupid easy.

i might start tinkering around with a mystic build; i used to play deadguy. I have got to the the thing that really made that deck good was the equipments. they are pure CA, along with mystic. It's just hard freeing uo slots

[f|i[p]]

I think for a stoneforge build you'll definitely need your nobles as equipments and stoneforge mystics are generally quite mana intensive..

[Shabbaman]

As a long time Survival player I'm looking for a new deck (obviously). I've played rock in extended, and I've played something that looks like rock survival. Basically I'd be swapping out my Survivals for Hymns ;) I have most cards, specifically the expensive ones (duals (though only a single scrubland), goyfs, a Karakas (although it's in my crap deck with Leyline of Singularity :D ), a maze (although it's in my EDH deck, a single mox diamond), 4 wastes) and most of the cheaper cards. I don't have Vindicates though, and I don't even like the card. Is Maelstrom Pulse such a subpar replacement?

[zalachan]

I thing Pulse is good and all (for killing Iona), but i have trouble finding 1-2 for cheap and have 4 Vindicates allready. You have to try Vindicate before you dismiss it, it's essentially Pulse/Sinkhole split card. And i don't really like either of the two modes by themselves..

[Shabbaman]

Interesting that you mention Sinkhole. I think I may undervalue the LD package of the deck.

[Rainbow Maker]

It's really personal taste. I'm not a big fan of diamond. There are many options to try. in my limited testing stoneforge has proven her worth against The Fear

EDIT: test sinkhole but we alreayd have a LOT of 2 drops and vindicate is way more versatile