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Thread: [Deck] The Rock

  1. #81

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I found this a little bit interesting: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Beatdown.html

    I totally disagree about a few changes to his list, but the main point of the subject is Lotus Cobra. What's everyone's thoughts? I'm considering trying him out, but I am unsure as to what to cut for it. I think it's more powerful in an aggro-Rock version, (I'm currently running a mid-range/control Rock) but I cannot dismiss it altogether.

    I've already decided to cut 1 Desolation Angel for 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, so adding 3-4x Lotus Cobra would be even more difficult. I do not want to drop Mox Diamond as I like the random "nutty" T1 drops with it, or at least having the Noble Hierarch.

    Perhaps S/B 2x Extirpate who knows what else, but I feel Lotus Cobra would add to the random "nutty" turns. It'd help out our BB for Hymns and dropping creatures more, but for how often people do not let Dark Confidant live or resolve, our hands would empty pretty quick. I'd love to fit in a Skeletal Scrying, but again, room is an issue, in this decks case, graveyard removal might be a bit of a stretch.

    Thoughts?

    @ Gerrard's Verdict
    I've found the card lacking, unless my opponent is down to 2-3 cards, which in their case, most people would rather keep a Wasteland in their hand over discarding it. Hymn to Tourach is just all around better.

  2. #82
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Lotus Cobra is awful. Seriously. There's almost no benefit of where to spend the mana. Once you've gotten the dude down, your prime time for disruption has already passed. And there's not a whole lot else for the deck to do with the mana. I suppose having your land drops activate Sensei's Divining Top would be nice, but that's not an excuse to play terrible creatures.

    Part of the appeal of The Rock in Legacy right now is that it doesn't run any bad cards. Some of the lands might be a little janky in certain situations, sure, but the rest? It packs the most versatile and efficient cards humanly possible. To breakdown,

    1. It packs the most efficient cost-for-size creature in Legacy, Tarmogoyf.
    2. It packs a 2-drop that is very often game-ending if allowed to live for more than a couple turns, Dark Confidant.
    3. It packs a 3-drop that is not only capable of out-sizing 90% of the format, but is also capable of crazy utility, Knight of the Reliquary.
    4. It packs the two best discard spells in the format, Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach.
    5. It packs the best creature removal and most versatile permanent removal in the game, Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate.
    6. It packs the best mana denial card in the game, Wasteland.
    7. It packs one of the most efficient, versatile, and hard to remove card filtration engines in Sensei's Divining Top.

    And the remaining cards are still usually versatile and strong. AND, on top of this, a ton of the cards synergize very well.

    Therefore, there's no room for creatures that don't really add a lot.

    Usually I expect more from the Ideas Unbound column. But I guess part of the point of it is that he's always trying new things, and it's unreasonable to expect them all to be fantastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  3. #83
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabbaman View Post
    ...Is Maelstrom Pulse such a subpar replacement?
    Pulse is nice and all, but it is subpar. You should treat it as Vindicate 5-8. I run only one and still get situations where 2 Goyfs are looking at each other and I draw Pulse. You will see these situations far more often than Ionas. Get Vindicates, they are good.

  4. #84

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    ya that's what i mainly do with verdict. ill add hymn eventually. i'm just tinkering around with some lists. because the problem with 2cc discard is that if you are playing a spell and not a creature you can't apply pressure. but if you play a creature it will likely be removed. It's a double edged sword. i think I might try steppe lynx for a bit. In old extended it was the best play. In legacy i'm sure it's almost as scary. also i would like to try dropped some 2 drops. i find the rock is saturated with 2's and sometimes 3 drops.

  5. #85

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I top 2 split the TCGPlayer Legacy Sunday event in Atlanta with the following Rock'ish deck.

    4 x Tarmogoyf
    4 x Black Knight
    4 x Qasali Pridemage
    2 x Stoneforge Mystic
    3 x Vampire Nighthawk
    1 x Tombstalker
    2 x Doran, the Siege Tower
    2 x Shriekmaw (hardly a man ... but)

    22 men

    4 x Thoughtseize
    4 x Swords to Plowshares
    4 x Vindicate

    12 defensive cards

    1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 x Sword of Light and Shadow (was a Nightmare Lash until about 2 minutes before deck reg)
    1 x Uwezama's Jitte

    3 Weapons

    1 x Sylvan Library

    1 eReader

    3 x Bayou
    3 x Scrubland
    1 x Karakas
    4 x Verdant Catacombs
    3 x Marsh Flats
    3 x Swamp
    1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 x Volrath's Stronghold
    1 x Plains
    1 x Forest
    1 x Savannah

    22 lands

    Sideboard was geared toward Storm.

    4 x Mindbreak Trap (Leyline is good also, but they likely have Chain, and Belcher just poops Goblins)
    2 x Krosan Grip
    2 x Gaddock Teeg
    2 x Extirpate
    2 x Faerie Macabre
    2 x Shriekmaw (vs. Goyf based decks, or Zoo / Goblins / Merfolk ... even vs. Counterbalance they aren't terrible)
    1 x Persecute (the fun slot!)

    The Doran's were KotR for a while but Knight is underwelming in many matchups. Doran is the modern age Juzam, and yes I've returned him with Karakas.

  6. #86
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I call my list San Diego Rock simply because the 3 color aggro deck my old roomate and I created when Legacy split became known as "San Diego Zoo" (name courtesy of David Hernandez here). While I don't expect this deck to port over into Extended and Standard or define naming conventions for an entire archetype (RGW aggro w/ burn) the way SDZ did (Rock is pretty much already a standard name for the archteype, this list was also a work by Chris and myself, so I figured I'd stick with the SD moniker. The MD Extirpates (which are Chris' addition dating back to GP Chicago several years ago) more or less define our take on the Rock-style deck. Because the deck plays to the long game, even against decks that don't need massive GY hate (VV, Thopter, Dredge, Loam) they give you outs against cards that an opponent is likely to have multiples of that could swing games against you. For this reason, the deck runs Edict in addition to StP instead of PtE; sometimes you want a creature in the bin instead of RFG so that you can remove all copies of it and prevent an opponent from threatening you with it later. This is especially important against other threat-light decks that can match you card for card on removal and disruption, like UBG Landstill or the mirror.

    I played with Sejiri Steppe in my listing for a while, but the number of times it was useful was minimal. Bog is strong enough to play despite it's CipT because even if I draw it, it's usually useful. Steppe is only useful as a draw if you need to Alpha strike; as Rock is less threat-dense than most decks, this is rarely applicable. You're rarely going to be racing anyone for damage, and if you are, not being able to swing with KotR is generally going to be bad. If KotR survives long enough to become active, it's because your opponent can't remove it anyway, so Steppe is just a win-more.

    If Survival is banned, Rock as an archetype will go back to being a tier 2 strategy. Right now, fast Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk and Fast Affinity are suppressed by the presence of VV, which can outrace decks that can't disrupt it significantly and have no counters for SotF. Those fast aggro decks are the ones that Rock has the most problems with. We have superior cards to most decks, but we are vulnerable to non-CB tempo-based strategies. If VV is removed from the metagame in large #'s (the deck will still be viable and as powerful w/o SotF, but it will lose popularity) those decks will make a comeback and Rock will be poorly positioned against the field. At that point, there will be no competitive reason to play any Rock varient. Building an anti-aggro Rock will weaken other matchups, leaving us with reasonable game against everyrhing, but no favored or even matchups.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  7. #87

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    according to this (there isn't a whole lot of data to back it up to the fact that it isn't one of the most played decks) http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...s_of_Data.html

    but the only decks i have been having a lot of trouble with are decks that have jace in them... i really need some help on those match ups
    though

  8. #88

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    If Survival is banned, Rock as an archetype will go back to being a tier 2 strategy. Right now, fast Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk and Fast Affinity are suppressed by the presence of VV, which can outrace decks that can't disrupt it significantly and have no counters for SotF. Those fast aggro decks are the ones that Rock has the most problems with. We have superior cards to most decks, but we are vulnerable to non-CB tempo-based strategies. If VV is removed from the metagame in large #'s (the deck will still be viable and as powerful w/o SotF, but it will lose popularity) those decks will make a comeback and Rock will be poorly positioned against the field. At that point, there will be no competitive reason to play any Rock varient. Building an anti-aggro Rock will weaken other matchups, leaving us with reasonable game against everyrhing, but no favored or even matchups.
    Unless you play Aggro Rock, in which case tribal and zoo matchups are actually favorable.

  9. #89
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbow Maker View Post
    according to this (there isn't a whole lot of data to back it up to the fact that it isn't one of the most played decks) http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...s_of_Data.html

    but the only decks i have been having a lot of trouble with are decks that have jace in them... i really need some help on those match ups
    though
    Jace decks tend to be threat light. UW less so than UGB Landstill, but I find Extirpate goes a long way here. If you can Thoughtseize or Vindicate a Jace, you can get rid of all of them. Same goes for Factory. But if you've got Extirpates in the board, I can see G1 being a little tough.

    I have to disagree with you, Taco. I think Cobra merits consideration. It's played in every format except Legacy, which is usually a sign that a card is very good. One of the things (I won't say problem because we do well despite it) is that Rock has a very high curve. Generally, we're playing 1 spell a turn because we lack 1 drops and we're mana hungry with top and our 3 drops. You're rarely going to answer a threat AND drop a threat in the same turn. Cobra changes that. Drop a fetch on turn 4 and you can Vindicate and drop a KotR. Or you can have Hymn and 'goyf on turn 3. It changes the dynamic of games against other slow decks. However, it's an abysmal topdeck. But it opens the possibility of more expensive drops. I'm just not sure right now what we'd find useful. I don't see it being good at this point, but I do think it's worth brainstorming about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  10. #90
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I think Cobra deserves Merit, true. But, does it replace Mox Diamond/Noble Hierarch? Sure it adds mana every time you play a land, but if you're stuck for mana, then you're not playing lands, and Cobra isn't doing you much good. Again, I think it deserves a try.

    -Matt

  11. #91

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    @ Tacosnape

    I see your point of view and agree to a certain degree. I said that Cobra would add to the random factor of the deck being explosive. IE: drawing a mox in opening hand. It's a lot like Mox w/ the explosive factor after T1-T2, making it threat. Since we play kotr, we can get a good amount of mana per turn, and it's another threat. Granted it's as fragile as Bob, but threat none the less.

    @Spikey
    I see Cobra in more of an aggro version of rock, drop creatures faster and such. I feel that some brainstorming might be valid in this case for aggro rock. Drop your hand faster, take quick advantage and ugh smash febis!

    Quick list:
    Critters: 19
    4x Dark Confidant
    4x Knight of the Reliquary
    4x Tarmogoyf
    3x Noble Heirarch
    3x Lotus Cobra

    Spells:17
    2x Inquisition of Koziliek
    4x Thoughtseize
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    4x Vindicate
    3x Swords to Plowshares

    Artifacts: 3
    3x Sensei's Diving Top

    Land: 21
    9x Fetch
    1x Maze of Ith
    1x Volrath's stronghold
    1x Karakas
    3x Basic
    1x Scrub
    2x Savannah
    3x bayou

    Just a quick throw together and is off top of my head, maybe someone with MWS can test it out and let us know what the deal is. Personally, w/o Mox, I feel there would be too many conflicting T1-T2 drops until Cobra hit the field, then it's just empty hand. Not sure how I feel about Cobra's involvement yet.

  12. #92

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Hi,

    The following list split the final of a 236 players event in Paris last week end :

    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Qasali Pridemage

    4 Hymn To Tourach
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Vindicate
    3 Mox Diamond
    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Karakas
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Marsh Flats
    3 scrublands
    2 Bayou
    1 Savane
    4 Wasteland
    1 Plaine
    1 Forêt
    1 Marais

    SB : 3 Extirpate
    SB : 2 Yixlid Jailer
    SB : 2 Umezawa's Jitte
    SB : 2 Engineered Explosives
    SB : 2 Diabolic Edict
    SB : 3 Duress
    SB : 1 Ghastly Demise

    Nice Yixlid Jailer tech in sideboard against Vengvine !

    Top 8 was : 3 UG Madness, 1 BGW Rock, 1 U Stax, 1 Merfolk, 1 Standstill, 1 ReAnimator S&T

    Lists available there : http://www.legacy-france.com/Classem...ris-t5187.html

    Thanks for the cool primer, a great work that has spread out to France !

    Au revoir

  13. #93

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    @ gremsch

    That's great news! We're glad that the primer helped out!

    How does Yixlid Jailer tech work against Vengevine? Does it shut down VV?

    This is the second reference to that site that I've seen, too bad I cannot speak French.

  14. #94

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Hey,

    Unfortunately I wasn't piloting that deck, as I chose a hombrew BG Rock deck which didn't match this list...

    The guy went 8 wins 1 draw during the rounds, won his way to the final and split due to late hour.

    This Legacy-France site is held by the Legacy community in Paris, it shares a lot of reports from events all around France.

  15. #95

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    fair enough, thanks for the heads up. As the U.S. is currently flooded with Merfolk and Survival, its great to know that there are other decks doing well in the world, mayhap things will eventually spread out and the U.S. will adapt to diverse meta that Europe seems to be having.

    I respect the fact that you went Classic Rock style, how did you place?

  16. #96

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by gremsch View Post
    Nice Yixlid Jailer tech in sideboard against Vengvine !
    Nice until it gets Swords'ed. It is pretty effective vs. dredge though if you expect to see quite a bit of that. I think Macabre is also the better choice against Reanimator and other IGG shananigans.

  17. #97

    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Nice until it gets Swords'ed. It is pretty effective vs. dredge though if you expect to see quite a bit of that. I think Macabre is also the better choice against Reanimator and other IGG shananigans.
    It is just something they need to answer. swords is a legitimate arguement. but it along with extirpate would go a long way.

    The problem with discard is that usually if they are a smart player that knows how to use brainstorm, they will save it for your discard rather than just thinning their deck by 1 card at the eot because they can. it's much harder to kill jace then you would think. you just have to hope that they won't have a counter for vindicate.

  18. #98
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    I think Aggro Rock is the last place you'd want to stick Lotus Cobra. It'd be as bad as running it in Zoo. Your hand empties way too fast to make use of 5 to 6 mana a turn. It'd definitely be a card for the most controlling Rock lists. I could see cutting Pridemages out of my list for Cobras and replacing Elspeth with Sun Titan. Of course Titan would be a wicked badd flip off a blind Bob and Cobra is sþill a terrible topdeck. But Vindicate or Waste every turn attached to a sizeable body? Could be tits...
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  19. #99
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    @ Lotus Cobra
    As for cobra, I don't think it would really help as much since its another acceleration piece that drops on the 2nd turn.What are you accelerating to?I guess this could be deck dependent, depending on builds...

    But it shouldn't be shrugged off so easily. It could be tested however.

    @Yixlid Jailer

    Although Jailer stops vengevines from coming back from the grave, It doesn't stop iona.I'd still go for extirpate or faeri . Extirpate is wonderful against dredge as well as control decks.

    @SpikeyMikey

    I always loved Sun titan, but Sun titan only returns permanent cards unfortunately. So vindicates would not be an option for it..

  20. #100
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    Re: [Deck] The Rock

    Sun Titan with Pernicious Deed. Bwa ha ha! But really... I don't think there's enough room in Legacy Rock for Cobra. I ran a Rock list in Shards/Zendikar Standard that used Cobras. Basically I'd try to drop Cobra t2 and ramp into Baneslayers, Elspeths, and Identity Crisis by t3. It also ran 4 Birds.

    Basically, I just don't see enough big spells to abuse with Cobra. The first problem would be what to cut for the Cobras. I don't think you'd want to drop the Mox Diamonds since t1 Hymn is still one of the most broken plays in the game. T1 Cobra wouldn't be a bad deal either, especially followed by a fetch on t2.

    The next thing you'd have to figure out is if it's worth it to run Cobra without 5-6 cmc spells to ramp into. And if not, what would you add to abuse with Cobra and what could you cut for it?

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