I noticed that with the upcoming B/R update, all that is talked about are Survival of the Fittest and Vengevine (everytime I hear or say Vengevine, my mind goes 'FUCK YA!' ala Team America Movie).
Outside of Flash and Mystical Tutor, the cards in the ban list haven't really been tested in the format. It was just the intuition of DCI that they will be too powerful for the format. That said, a lot of those originally banned cards have gone out of the list dating back to Replenish. Even the deemed-too-powerful-for-the-format Metalworker and Grim Monolith has come out of the list without shaking the foundations of the format. Entomb create some debacle (with Reanimator) but that was 'fixed' with the banning of Mystical Tutor.
Is it time to let one, maybe two cards out of the list?
I remember Steven Menendian wrote an article about unbanning cards from each colors last year. The only card that came out that was mentioned from that article was Illusionary Mask.
The other cards that he mentioned that was supposed to be safe for the format were: Land Tax, Time Spiral, Mind Twist, Goblin Recruiter and Earthcraft.
Land Tax has recieved the most 'unban cries'. It is believe that DCI still has the card because they just can. Some say that it is banned because it makes the game unfun and slow. But I remember someone mentioned that if that was the case then why are Trinisphere, Standstill and Stasis to name a few exist in the format. Many believe it was its interaction with Scroll Rack is the reason why it is kept on the banned list. This is also the same reason why Earthcraft is in the list. Its interactions with Squirrel's Nest is what's keeping it in the list.
If that were the case, then why do we have the following two card combos in the format: CounterTop, PainterStone, StifleNaught, HelmVoid, ThopterSwords? Maybe DCI will make a point that not all two card combos are acceptable in the format by banning one of the pieces of VengeVival?.
Speaking of combo, some believe that the reason why Time Spiral and Goblin Recruiter are in the list because it will push really good combo decks, something that the DCI hates. This is evident with the banning of Mystical Tutor. DCI wants to keep combo really hard to play so only the elite can play it. Back before Mystical Tutor got the hammer, anyone can play AnT with ease. Reanimator was almost an autopilot deck on its prime. DCI took away a crucial piece of those decks and turned those decks into a complicated puzzle decks. With this reasoning, Time Spiral and Goblin Recruiter will have no way of moving out of the ban list. At the same time, this will push the banning of either Survival of the Fittest or Vengevine. Yes, it contradicting the previous argument but the DCI is unpredictable itself, just see Mystical Tutor. Who would have thought right?
Lastly on the list we have Mind Twist. Back in the day, although I wasn't a competitive player at that time, Mind Twist was a really feared card because it can be broken at the early stages of the game. But keep in mind, At around the same time, Dark Ritual to Hypnotic Spectre was itself a devastating first turn play back in the day. It has been a decade since and first turn Hyppie isn't as scary as it used to be. Even in Vintage where cheap accelerants are common do not even utilize this card. Maybe with all the cards printed after it, Mind Twist was balanced out? I personally have never tested the card so I cannot answer that question.
I probably missed a lot in the B/R list. There was been recent discussions on here on Library of Alexandria, Mana Drain and Minds Desire. We've even come as far as discussing Gush. I definitely missed a lot of information on the mentioned cards above as I am all putting this together while I'm on my way to work.
If you feel like this B/R update is the time for some cards to show up in the format. Discuss it in an intelligent matter.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forumsOriginally Posted by Kyle
Earthcraft should come off. In a format of Daze/Spell Pierce, running Earthcraft in a basic forest.dec doesn't seem all impressive. Engineered Plague/Grip stops the combo and you end up with one of the two pieces that do nothing alone. Earthcraft without Squirrel Nest kinda blows since you're playing basic forests, Squirrel Nest without Earthcraft is laughable
Mind's Deisre and Mana Drain won't be fair in the format at all IMO. LoA has a chance on coming down, and it's a reason why I think I should get a playset just in case it happens. However, Mana Drain, Mind's Desire and LoA are not going to come down anytime soon. Instead Earthcraft, Land Tax, Mind Twist etc should come down first.
I really hate the argument "DCI hates combo decks/strategies". How do we know for sure this is true? And if it is true, then the DCI inherently doesn't understand the format. Eternal formats are different from Standard/Limited/Extended formats. The latter formats are for people whom from WotC's marketing strategy, are players that are fairly newer to the game. i.e. Standard was created to cash in on the game, and maintain sales of packs and support Limited primarily. Not to mention, the 'easier' nature of the Standard format makes it attract a bigger crowd and hence more revenue for WotC. This is the reason why DCI doesn't like combo and land destruction in Standard, because it destroys their philosophy of attracting more people to a format where they can make the most money.
Eternal formats are different though. Combo is in every way fair as an aggro or control deck AS LONG AS the format's health is checked via the B/R list. If DCI's intention is for combo to be neutered in the eternal format, then I really start to question whether they know the formats at all, or if their philosophy towards the eternal formats are warped. Instead of clingling onto the "We need to nerf combo cards/engines", they should really focus on the fact that Eternal magic is more than Standard. Every deck is viable. Diversity and healthy metagames are important in any format, but eternal formats take a bigger hit from the B/R than Standard. This is because, if you make the move to ban a card, you may kill entire archetypes.
It's in this light that I see the difficulties in the Survival + Vengevine problem. If you ban Survival, then you have to look back into years of data that suggested that Survival has been perfectly healthy in the format. If you ban Survival, you contradict the years of data to say that it was broken even though it clearly was a fine card/archetype. If you ban Vengevine, then you are acknowledging the present issue faced in Legacy, which is a good thing, however, you are also stating that you are very narrowly banning a specific card, where Vengevine has potential applications in non-Survival decks unexplored. By banning VV, you are not giving the card a chance to be explored in other non-Survival decks (not that one would exlore one anyway with Survival around). I think this is the biggest dilemma when it comes to this issue.
If you ban Survival: you contradict historic evidence and accept recent months of short-term data, i.e. bad principle IMO, not to mention killing dozens of viable healthy Survival archetypes.
If you ban VV: you are stating that other non-Survival potentials of VV is going to scraped, which is also a bad principle.
The deal is to strike a balance, and curiously, I think that neither Survival nor VV will be banned, as a result of this dilemma. And to be honest, they're both fine. My playgroup beats Vengevival, and we don't play Vengevival popularly. You answer VV you play against a bad Survival deck, sounds good to me. If you don't answer Vengevine or Survival, it's the same as losing to SnT/Emrakul, Countertop anyway.
This is [s]Sparta[/s]Legacy!!!!
Love your sig btw :)
I believe the idea that the DCI hates combo comes from Forysthe stating that combo shouldn't be a pillar, and something that's essentially a random/rogue appearance.
I can't remember, but I think it was also him that said the Storm mechanic is an abomination.
So what about Mind Twist?
Earthcraft looks a lot like Birchlore rangers or Heritage Druid. It cost an additional mana, and needs a single creature instead 2-3 Elves.
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest is laughable. Without aceleration you need 5 mana (2GGG), wait a turn to untap the enchanted land and another turn to attack with your squirrels. With a perfect hand you can't win before turn 5 unless you play acceleration or Concordant:
T1: Ponder
T2: Earthcraft
T3: Squirrel Nest
T4: Untap your enchanted Land, make infinite squirrels
T5: Attack
I can see a T3 win playing acceleration with a perfect 7 hand. You have better combo decks in the format right now:
T1: Hierarch
T2: Squirrel Nest
T3: Earthcraft, infinite squirrels, Concordant
Why Earthcraft should remain banned:
EDIT: just realized this is a Classic list with Skullclamp, but it's still nutty.
14 Forest
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Essence Warden
4 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Brain Freeze
4 Earthcraft
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
2 Squirrel Nest
West side
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Skullclamp make any elf list retarded, Earthcraft isn't the culprit here. Drawing TWO cards for each creature is pretty insane i tell you.
Except that all but 1 squirrel is tapped, so you can only swing for 1 turn 3.
Obviously you wouldn't play concordant crossroads.
The deck would be very fair; after you combo off your opponent still has a turn to swing in with creatures, and your combo plays on the board. Enchantment destruction (including things like deed), pithing needles, counterspells, racing, etc are all practical ways to beat it.
I think the card would have much more potential in an elf deck (as another sort of heritage druid, like you said).
I think mind twist would be interesting.
Could work somewhat similar to hymn to tourach. Might be popular in rock style decks.
I am all for unbannings, i dont even care if it's healthy. I mean, why even consider useless things like the above and just not go right into the goods! Unban Oath,Drain,Bazaar and Library go!
Discuss.
I still think Mind's Desire is to slow for the format, but I would REALLY like to play it anyway, I think the card would be fun as hell. And Time Spiral ..... that could certainly be interesting. Off the top of my head I can't think of any deck that it really makes good ... at all since we don't have Tolarian Academy, but I would like to see what could be done with it.
Earthcraft is fine, there may be some degenerate Elf decks made but since Elves is already pretty bad, I think it might be nice to give them a fighting chance against the format. I really can't see the deck being that good since it still dies to all the same shit as before.
Mind Twist used to be sick, but why would you run this when you can just play Thoughtseize and Hymns? Sure, a turn 4 Twist for 3 would be savage but, most games are already decided at that point. Its a good play but it does nothing for you board position and by the time it is better that Hymn u should probably be working on handling what ur opponents board looks like.
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Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Land Tax
Time Spiral
are, for the most part, safe to unban. I don't think that a dedicated Earthcraft or Earthcraft/elves deck will be particularly powerful.. Earthcraft, if unbanned, would likely find a place in enchantress, where it has a lot of synergy with wild growth effects and allows you to make infinite dudes with a wild growth a plains and Sacred Mesa.
I think earthcraft and time spiralare fine, I'm on the fence about mind twist. of the cards listed it can change the game state more than any of the others mentioned. legacy often comes down to attrition wars and this would win those wars every time, especially in a deck like the rock, or some B/X thing.
Has any one thought about Gush?
Theres no fastbond in legacy, I don't see it as being degenerate, but helping the under performing doomsday decks.
This is so wrong it hurts.
I think "helping the under performing doomsday decks" is somewhere below "reprinting Necropotence in Standard" and somewhere above "bringing back Storm" on Wizard's priority list.
I see Land Tax & Earthcraft as particular no-brainers that remain on the list out of sheer inertia. In fact probably the only reason Grim Monolith, Entomb (!) and Metalworker got unbanned first is because they would have more effect on the format. It's almost like these two cards are too obviously not-broken for the DCI to care about unbanning them, maybe feeling it just doesn't matter.
Next on the list is Mind Twist. It would help non-combo Ritual decks which have basically disappeared from the game.
I stand by the statement. Ritual, Ritual, AdN, wins games. IT+LED+LED flat out wins games. Mind's Desire is even more of a coinflip than AdN is and it costs 6. Cards like Lotus Bloom are horrid in Legacy and unlike DD, IGG, and AdN which are the best storm enablers in the format, most require very little storm to operate properly, especially when the opponent is ripping your hand apart. When I have 2 LEDs and a Top in play with say 3 lands also, DD flat out wins the game here with 0 storm played before it (this scenario can be adjusted for more lands, less LEDs, and a Ritual in hand, etc, but an LED or 2 is ideal.) I can have no cards in hand and win with a few resources available. Same thing for IGG in TES assuming u play 1 main and 1 board and draw into a IT/BW or even IGG itself with sufficient cards in the graveyard. And AdN is the exact same as well assuming u have 10ish life.
Mind's Desire HAS to have storm unless u get just insanely lucky and is more vulnerable to hate cards, hand destruction, and mana denial. Mulligans certainly punish this card even more than most. Turn 1 all I have to have in order to win is one mana, Dark Rit and DD. Without 4-7 storm the card is not good. Thats why I say its to slow without the proper setup. All the aforementioned decks can and DO win with very minimal resources and DDFT in particular can win through disgusting amounts of hate. Desire requires much more to be good, cause storm 2 + Desire is not gonna get there unless u are lucky as fuck. And as far as consistenly winning on turns 1-3 ... all those decks do this (with DDFT averaging turns 2-4) and are very resilient to discard.
That being said, I REALLY want to play around with the card. It will probably be a tier 2 deck BUT there may be some sick things that you can do with the card and some strange interactions available in this format as opposed to Extended. TEPS was sick there, and I would really like the chance to test it out (if nothing more than just a wish target) because I love that card but as things are now it is strictly inferior to DD and AdN.
Gush needs to stay on the list. Trust me on this, we would see a LOT more Landstill and, while I love playing against that deck because combo wrecks it, I just don't want people playing decks that consistently go to time and drag tournaments on even longer. And if you gave DDFT Gush ... fuck, it would be one of the most degenerate things ever, you don't want to give DD free draw spells, resources would go to a bare minimum and the amount of jacked up situations it could get out of AND enable a disgusting amount of faster wins for that deck, either drawing into the stack or in the DD stack itself ... wow, I would absolutely love that shit but, it would go right back on the banned list quick fast and in a hurry! Not to mention what it could do for the Lands! and Loam variants.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Mind Twist wouldn't be played, at least not by anyone trying to win. It was banned from Vintage in 1996 and then unbanned in 2000 and finally unrestricted in 2007. Mind Twist was relevant back when you could stall the game out with Moat or whatever for a million turns and then build up a googleplex mana to discard your opponent's whole hand with counter backup and then cast a Serra Angel and swing 5 times. These days we have what, 3 different 1-mana discard spells that let you see your opponents' hand? I really doubt there's any deck that actually wants Mind Twist. Unban it til someone proves me wrong.
Mind's Desire would be fucked in half retarded good. I'm pretty sure this doesn't need to be debated, but playing a bunch of spells for free is good.
And so is drawing cards for negative mana cost. You don't need Fastbond to make Gush stupid, you just need a storm combo deck with Islands. Oh hay thar TES. The fact that it both produces mana AND draws cards on Turn 3 is what makes it so clearly in need of staying banned.
Land Tax is so weak it's hilarious. Deck Parfait was never designed to handle Storm combo. I'd love to see it try, though. Unban.
Library of Alexandria might be able to be unbanned. It's a nonbasic land, it's got a very strong restriction, and the fact there just aren't that many of them will keep it from ever becoming a huge problem.
Mana Drain is my personal pet card that couldn't possibly HURT Legacy. Nobody in this format hardcasts counterspells that cost more than U, because all of them suck. All of them. This one doesn't. Why can't we play with the jellyfishes? Because I might actually have enough mana to Mindslaver someone? :(
This is what I hope we'll see on the 20th:
This ought to keep everyone relatively happy. It admits that there is data that supports a possible problem with the interaction between Vengevine and Survival and says we're on top of it, but want more data before acting. This implicitly acknowledges that the time to ban is March. By then the evidence will be overwhelming that a ban in needed (or it won't and then banning would have been the wrong move in any case). As for Frantic Search, it came off the Vintage restricted list and has had virtually zero impact (though I have seen a few lists that run 2-3 copies). And this is a format where it can untap Tolarian Academy. I think they were testing the waters, and from my perspective it looks safe. Since it costs 3 mana, I don't see it causing any big issues with speed even though it is "free" if you've got 3 land in play (i.e. turn 3). Theoretically, it boosts design space and could lead to more format diversity. It also potentially helps deal with Vengevival because it boosts High Tide decks that might be easier to play than Tendrils combo. Similar reasoning could be used to argue for unbanning Gush, but I don't think the DCI will (or should) do that just yet. Gush has impacted Vintage since it's unrestriction, but I don't think the effect in Legacy would be the same at all. But maybe in March we'll find out.Changes to Legacy:
Unbanned: Frantic Search
Watch List: Survival of the Fittest, Vengevine
Frantic search will never be unbanned decks like solidarity would dominate the format...
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That's the thing though, mind's desire would only benefit storm combo. Gush would help a lot of decks. I mean even aggro loam would be good with gush, but how many decks could actually use mind's desire effectively in this format besides TES and mind's desire deck.
Even then, TES would be ridiculously broken since it would no longer use Diminishing returns.
T1: Library, go.Library of Alexandria might be able to be unbanned. It's a nonbasic land, it's got a very strong restriction, and the fact there just aren't that many of them will keep it from ever becoming a huge problem.
T2: Tap Library, Draw, Tundra, STP your dude, go.
T3: Tap Library, Draw, Land, do something controlish, go.
T4: Tap Library, Draw, Land...
Uncounterable card advantage every turn on a card that just so happens to be non-Legendary and oh yeah, it taps for mana. Also, it would force people to either 1) Play Combo 2) Play Merfolk or 3) Sell an organ to buy a playset of Library.
T1: Land, go.Mana Drain is my personal pet card that couldn't possibly HURT Legacy. Nobody in this format hardcasts counterspells that cost more than U, because all of them suck. All of them. This one doesn't. Why can't we play with the jellyfishes? Because I might actually have enough mana to Mindslaver someone?
T2: Land, go. Counter your 1/2/3 drop.
T3: Land, Jace/FoF/Gifts/Elspeth/Moat/Humility/WoG/Deed+Activation/Shackles+Activation/Removal+Standstill/some disgusting play.
Don't get me wrong though, I say a prayer every night to Zombie Jesus that he may someday unban the most awesome of counters. It's a shame that Vintage is so stagnant right now, otherwise I would gladly be Draining spells in it.
Free Land Tax, Earthcraft, Time Spiral, and Mind Twist. None of them will see the light of a Legacy Top 8 anyway.
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