Unban Skullclamp, I have a set already.
Originally Posted by TsumiBand
Ok....
Everyone who said the words: Oath, Skullclamp, Minds Desire, and Gush in one sentence with the word "unban" please get into line here in front of me to get a kick into your nuts.... Seriously ? You ever played one of this cards ?
Gush just makes about every Tempo and Combo Deck one turn faster... I played it for fun in my merfolk at the kitchen table and it was so sick...and thats not even the deck gaining most out of it.
Minds Desire: I am not even willing to talk about that card... desire into desire is auto win, always its not just drawing cards, there is no restriction in 1.5 and 4 desire basicly allow you to drop your deck on the table.
Skullclamp, jeah there are no decks that are tribal based ...like elves merfolk, goblin, oh and affinity isnt around anymore, and last I heared noone played creature decks like D&T and Zoo, besides all that wizards would never print a card like 2 mana search a scullclamp,1 manan play it uncounterable and get crazy with it....................................... no wait........
Oath, jeah I heared Combodecks that have like 20-24 slots for removal are pretty good, nah...maybe I am mistaken.
guys guys... how should anybody take youserious if you suggest stuff like that.
Could someone explain to me why people get completely terrified when it comes to unbanning Mind's Desire, while we have a card right now that costs one mana less and wins the game just as hard as Desire does? Although you can't run more than like 3 AdN and the card becomes worse at lower life, costing one less definitely makes up for that. Uncounterability is only partially the case, as ramping up to 6 mana will leave you vulnerable to counters, and because you can still counter the IT or BW. Don't get me wrong. I would understand it if the card wouldn't get unbanned, but it's really not as bad as you make it to be.
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Ad Nauseam isn't a Mind's Desire. It's really not even close. If you're just going to write off things like being entirely uncounterable as a minor thing, it doesn't sound like you're asking for an explanation so much as not accepting the one right in front of you.
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Another way to look at it is Ad Nauseam is "just" drawing cards, Desire is drawing and casting them - in other words Ad Nauseam is just fuel and Desire is both fuel and an engine (and a virtual uncounterable one at that too). Besides, Desire was a beast even in the strictly inferior Snap engine - letting it loose in an envioment like legacy is like letting a wolf into a flock of lambs.
About Earthcraft, I think Enchantress would be pleased to solve their kill condition dilema with it, and I think it would be way too powerful there so that I really don't think it will be unbanned.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Yea, if uncounterability (and lack of vulnerability to any answer cards in general) was no big deal combo decks wouldn't jump through hoops to cast 9 spells in a turn for Tendrils aka the best combo win condition ever.
I'm pretty skeptical that Earthcraft and Squirrel Nest would overpower Enchantress. Both are pretty mediocre on their own and it already has a pretty nice win con in Sigil of the Empty Throne.
Hmmm... I see... but Earthcraft is faster than Sigil and has the secondary ability of accelerating the deck.
I'm skeptical about people claiming for its unban not being the ones that are willing to abuse it. xD
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Nameless One also talked about Goblin Recruiter, whats everybody's opinion on that? Is the format ready for food-chain goblins?
IMO, the only unbannable card from his post is Mind Twist, but I'm afraid of missing something and fail to understand its power, so I would be flattered with an explanation ^^
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Enchantress would just use Sacred Mesa. It's not too bad on its own, and would function essentially the same as squirrels nest. Forest w/ wild growth + Mesa + earthcraft = win next turn. The rest of the deck would focus on stalling until it could establish this combo. Enchantress could become top tier, and I still don't think it's overpowered since the combo is relatively fragile.
Accellerate the deck when you play 4 creatures? ._.
Earthcraft make for a nice combo with mesa but honestly even that use strike me as win more (Enchantress already easily do 5+ pegasi a turn with a Sanctum alone). Squirrel nest is unplayable by itself and wouldn't be played even with Earthcraft.
Earthcraft would at most push some T2 decks into T1.5, and that's it. Twist is useless. Tax is decent but scroll rack + Tax is so slow and worse than countertop as a card-advantage engine i can't see any reason why the card's still banned.
Recruiter would make Goblin a better version of Vengevival decks, i'll say no thx.
This. Ad Nauseum into another Ad Nauseum loses you the game. Mind's Desire into another Mind's Desire + whatever other storm boosters you flip is just another nail in the coffin.
Ewww, Enchantess would never play Squirrel's Nest LOL. We already play 7-8x Wild Growth Effects so we would just switch over to Sacred Mesa instead of Sigil or in addition to Sigil. Sacred Mesa + a double growthed land + Earthcraft = infinite mana and infinite tokens or single growthed land + EarthCraft + Mesa = just infinite tokens. Anyone who has ever played against Enchantress can tell you double Growthed land is the rule not the exception. Not to mention Earthcraft is never dead as it usually will draw cards off Enchantress effects and it turns your Argothian Enchantresses into super mana dorks since they never attack and rarely block anyways. Argothian Enchantress, Wild Growth, draw, Earthcraft, draw, untap land tap for mana another Enchantress, draw, untap lands, play more growth effects, draw, draw, play Sacred Mesa, infinite tokens + mana, play entire deck and burn you out with Words of War. Not saying it's too broken to ever come unbanned but it's far from as safe as people seem to think. As an Enchantress player I would obviously play it and I don't think it's safe enough to unban just on what it could do for Enchantress alone. I didn't even think about it before but Dovescape might even be maindeckable at that point and that could get pretty stupid quickly since Earthcraft + Enchantress + Dovescape is pretty much GG every time. Enchantress would definitely change quite a bit to say the least, and you'd be hardpressed to talk anyone into playing Squirrel Nest when it's 10000x worse than Mesa or Dovescape.
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I think Mindtwist can easily come off the list.
Go ahead and unban Earthcraft.
I think Vengevine and Survival should hang out where they are.
As for Recruiter... I think it could be unbanned and not break the format. The problem I see is the time it would eat up arranging the proper order to just keep chaining goblins.
Same goes for Landtax essentially as Recruiter.
I think you really have a point here.
Playing a Deck with Mind's Desire (even though unpowered) in Vintage just makes you realize how incredibly awesome this card might get.
What no one here seems to get is that the main differences between AdN and MD are:
1. AdN makes you pay life -> your curve has to be low -> less tendrils, AdN, IGG you want to flip (or more time to go off, since you don't die that fast) -> 4MD,3ToA,2IGG -> ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!?
2. it is blue -> FoW
3. Your flips are way less likely to fail assuming that you play a bunch of ToA's, considering that flipping 2BB + IT wins you the game pretty much.
4. sort of immunity to counters, because of storm mechanic.
5. You just do not really care if you have floating mana after MD... What do you need it for anyways...
6. If it fails in an early state of the game it still leaves you with plenty life and most likely some cantrips & disruption to bombard the opponent with...
Seriously? I'd love to put 4of those cuties in my Storm Combo-Deck to go nuts with it. (I'd definitely play them!!!)
Oath is just even more insane, being a ~6-10 Card Combo, that is ready turn 2, going nuts turn 3 with so much protection AND most likely a big, fat emrakul that can not be hit by StoP and recurrs with Oath, all by itself... COME ON!!!
Well, they've printed an all-goblin combo finish:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker,Lightning Crafter,Skirk Prospector
While the CC of that list looks bit high, Skirk Prospector,Mogg War Marshal, and Goblin Warchief, combined with Goblin Ringleaders is a ridiculously potent all-goblin mana production scheme, and the Gobbos do have plenty of ways to cheat cards into play.
And, really, while Skirk Prospector,Mogg War Marshal, and Lighting Crafter are possibly marginal, the rest are quite potent even without the combo, and most are quite nice with Food Chain too.
I really don't think there will be that many permutations of sort order to consider once the fastest ramp & kill stuff has been worked out once.
I suppose it would encourage people to chase those blatant chase cards even more, but it's probably not healthy for the format.
What time does this eat up? The recruiter stacks are not difficult to make and shouldn't take much time at all aside from teh shuffling. Not to mention since you're normally doing this turn 2-4, your games aren't taking long. If the opponent can survive an onslaught of 4 piledrivers, multiple tokens, warchiefs/chieftans, etc.. on say turn 3? Oh, you some how cheated a moat onto the table? That's fine, I've got Skirk Prospector, Siege Gang Commander, and Goblin Sharpshooter. You're still dying, this turn.
If the deck didn't face disruption this happened consistantly betweens turn 3-4, and even if they strip your Food Chain, you're basically playing Vial Goblins. Swarm and turn em sideways.
Last edited by Sims; 12-15-2010 at 12:34 PM. Reason: stupid quote tag.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Back in my casual days, when Legacy was still Type 1.5, I used to have a Gobvantage deck. You can beat someone with turn 3 Recruiter to Ringleader, Piledriver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Prospector.. I cant remember the exact sequence but it was that hard. Given that that was before Siege-Gang Commanders joined the Goblin gang.
I also think Goblin Recruiter would be too good for the format. I only added it on the opening post because it was included by Stephen Menendian's Unban article about the same time last year.
Its funny because at around the same time, Skullclamp wasn't really considered broken. Maybe it was just underplayed back in those days (compared to Jitte). Remember that Crazy88.dec?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I do, and it was no where near the most borked application of Clamp.
Also, to anyone who thinks that Survival/vine is too strong or fast right now and thinks the unbanning of Recruiter is a good idea:
You're crazy.
Last edited by Sims; 12-15-2010 at 02:39 PM. Reason: typo
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
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