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Thread: The power of shuffle.

  1. #1
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    The power of shuffle.

    I was thinking about how much can one benefit from shuffling its own library when I have seen Psychogenic probe.

    Why in the hell would someone deal damage due shuffling. Well there is a lot of situations when card orders to shuffle a library. Mostly all tutors do so, and in EDH, Singleton 100 or german highlander needs to make the decks bit more consistend they will surely need some tutorings.

    However there is an opposite card. Myr Mindservant. What the... Ok... How in the hell can shuffling help me. Have you ever had manascrew or manaflood and and you was sure that in next turns is nothing coming to help you? Yeah i would like to use some shuffling at this point. Sometimes just lands stick together...

    Honestly I was considering whether to play or not Myr Mindservant. Until I realized that same effect is on many many other cards, but not as a main effect, but as side-effect to prevent player from knowing what follows in library. But how can shuffling a library really improve your game?

    As far i know when anyones play an effect which searches in library all of the players have to take a look at the library. Is this a benefit before shuffling? Yes. If there is any problem due very bad card order you will probably notice it.

    The question from my side to people here if it is legal or fair to check out the library for such problems to solve them by shuffling just as an side effect of the tutor. Legal? Maybe... The card orders you to search in library and then to shuffle. Fair? ...

    From this point of view any tutor - especially the low mana tutors can affect the game course very intensly. From the other hand a style how the deck is being shuffled is something special. I was doing tricks with poker card deck... someone takes a random card from the deck. Then he puts it on the bottom of the poker deck. I will shuffle the deck and then start to search in it. Then I will pick one card, reveal it and in most cases i will be able to show card which was chosen. How is this possible? well when the guy was looking on the card he chosen I have taken a look at the card on the bottom of deck. Only thing I need is to shuffle carefully enough.

    Personally I dont like cheaters, because I am interested in the game, but if you confront shuffing done by computer and shuffing done "by hand" you will find certain differences. From time to time I have to "deconstruct" my deck to take a look what to add, what to remove. Then i shuffle it 5-6 or more times. Why so much? If i shuffle it only once or twice I am able to see some cards coming from library in some specific order. usually it means and disadvantage to me however it can mean opposite.

    Shuffling can make a difference - i noticed that after long game player just take the grave, all cards from battlefield and land, put it on top of library and shuffle a bit. Just notice that sometimes both players had more than 15 lands in play out of 30? Why the manascrew then? Let me guess... :D

    currently i have not found any rule in comprehensive rules how to shuffle propery. Not only to be sure that all my lands are not together, not only to prevent cheating...

  2. #2
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Myr Mindservant refreshes Divining Top, counters stuff like (lategame) Plow Under, gives you extra hits with Future Sight / Oracle of Mul Daya, and so on.

    Only you look at your library while you shuffle, unless the card explicitly tells you to reveal your library.

    You must shuffle your library in order to make the result as random as possible; there are several allowed techniques to do so, and several SCG articles went into details. If you are trying to gain an advantage from shuffling - distributing your lands uniformly, for example - that is cheating.

    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    I'm still trying to figure it out.

    At first I was like, "ah, another Psychogenic Probe deck idea". Then I was like, nope, he's coming at it from a different angle. Then I was like, "Oh, he's exploring the benefits of the shuffle" but then I was like wtf is he talking about looking through the deck and randomizing cards randomly? Then I was like, "I'm going to leave it to the experts to figure this one out, my brain hurts."

    So good job Nihil Credo, you are truly a scholar, a gentleman and a patient mofo.

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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Not trying to challenge anyone :D

    Forgive me if I speak too complicated. Even for me its hard to figure out what exactly I am looking for in this effect. With any card which looks on top of library any shuffling is just like Russian Roulette... Mostly its something typical for Blue color - The knowledge. Locally I have not met opponent who plays blue, except dudes who splash the color for counterspelling and Jace.

    Shuffling was presented to me as an sideeffect which is designed to flush away knowledge about the card order in library when I looked on the cards during tutoring, a boring action with no real impact on the game because of its randomness.

    I know how shuffling works with the Senseis Top, or much better with Scroll rack. I personally had great but really random results from such combinations. But if I can shuffle more and more it works like a skeleton key which opens the deck. Thats exactly why I play Esper panorama and similar cards. Less lands in library, possibility to shuffle and then lets look at the top...

    The effect is random, very subtle, but cumulative and makes great difference during play - in EDH and Highlander its bit more bring new cards I have not met an opponent who will react on such action. (except for those who accused me of stalling).

    But anyways, player who looks into his library due any tutor has opportunity to reshuffle poorly shuffled deck when cards are in bad order. Is it powerful? Surely yes, even when he decides to do normal shuffle without any cheating. Its the way how the (lets say) Personal tutor works, however the "side effect" of knowing what might come can affect a decision if he shufflse the library more or less - thats surely not as random as it should be :D

    Maybe it was certain to all players on this forum, but if a player apply his knowledge about his own deck to current state of the game, tutor any card, check the top of library he can gain an advantage in play, not because he searched for something useful, but simple because of shuffle. Its like ponder, but you are forced to shuffle.

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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Rules question:
    Can Myr Mindservant be used to make sure a game lasts longer than it should? I suppose tapping it to shuffle the library once a turn is legal, even if there is no apparent effect of doing so. If this assumption is true one can use 30 seconds or so more during each turn than strictly necessary, maybe resulting in a game ending in a draw.
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatzman View Post
    Rules question:
    Can Myr Mindservant be used to make sure a game lasts longer than it should? I suppose tapping it to shuffle the library once a turn is legal, even if there is no apparent effect of doing so. If this assumption is true one can use 30 seconds or so more during each turn than strictly necessary, maybe resulting in a game ending in a draw.
    Genius! Combine that with Top spinning, Brainstorm and fetch lands and you have a deck that auto draws vs. any deck in the meta.

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    Re: The power of shuffle.

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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by android View Post
    Genius! Combine that with Top spinning, Brainstorm and fetch lands and you have a deck that auto draws vs. any deck in the meta.
    Sounds like somebody wants to get Slow Played GLed/Stalling DQed out of the tournament.

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    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

  9. #9
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatzman View Post
    Rules question:
    Can Myr Mindservant be used to make sure a game lasts longer than it should? I suppose tapping it to shuffle the library once a turn is legal, even if there is no apparent effect of doing so. If this assumption is true one can use 30 seconds or so more during each turn than strictly necessary, maybe resulting in a game ending in a draw.
    Nope. Doing something that doesn't affect the game state (shuffling a library that was already fully randomised) is pretty much the über-example of stalling. It's equivalent to untapping Seeker of Skybreak with itself, except it takes a minute rather than a second.

    If you have a Divining Top in play you could reasonably claim to be looking for a specific card, I guess, but you'd still win a lot more if you had a better card than Myr fucking Mindservant in your deck.

    As an aside, during the GDS2 it's been repeatedly stated that Design now tries to avoid repeatable, frequent shuffle effects, so it's highly unlikely that a playable Soldier of Fortune effect will see print.
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  10. #10
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Myr Mindservant + Freed from the Real + Lantern of Insight

    = : "No, I want a different card next."
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  11. #11
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    We want free time wasting effect. That's too expensive.

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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offler View Post
    Not trying to challenge anyone :D

    Forgive me if I speak too complicated. Even for me its hard to figure out what exactly I am looking for in this effect. With any card which looks on top of library any shuffling is just like Russian Roulette... Mostly its something typical for Blue color - The knowledge. Locally I have not met opponent who plays blue, except dudes who splash the color for counterspelling and Jace.

    Shuffling was presented to me as an sideeffect which is designed to flush away knowledge about the card order in library when I looked on the cards during tutoring, a boring action with no real impact on the game because of its randomness.

    I know how shuffling works with the Senseis Top, or much better with Scroll rack. I personally had great but really random results from such combinations. But if I can shuffle more and more it works like a skeleton key which opens the deck. Thats exactly why I play Esper panorama and similar cards. Less lands in library, possibility to shuffle and then lets look at the top...

    The effect is random, very subtle, but cumulative and makes great difference during play - in EDH and Highlander its bit more bring new cards I have not met an opponent who will react on such action. (except for those who accused me of stalling).

    But anyways, player who looks into his library due any tutor has opportunity to reshuffle poorly shuffled deck when cards are in bad order. Is it powerful? Surely yes, even when he decides to do normal shuffle without any cheating. Its the way how the (lets say) Personal tutor works, however the "side effect" of knowing what might come can affect a decision if he shufflse the library more or less - thats surely not as random as it should be :D

    Maybe it was certain to all players on this forum, but if a player apply his knowledge about his own deck to current state of the game, tutor any card, check the top of library he can gain an advantage in play, not because he searched for something useful, but simple because of shuffle. Its like ponder, but you are forced to shuffle.
    You do know that at any event that matters the second you hand your deck to your opponent after you shuffle (or cheat, stack your deck, and pretend to shuffle) the first thing they are going to do is shuffle it. The rules don't allow you to alter your deck after they hand it back either so even if you stacked your deck perfectly on the sly it usually wouldn't matter because 3 random shuffles and a cut is more likely to put 7 lands on top than any 3 cards you tried to stack on top.
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  13. #13
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Its not a problem for me to let opponnent reshuffle the deck. Not at all.

    Even when the shuffle is perfectly random, there are some theoretical probabilities what will be on the top. This is something i can count with after each shuffle. Combined with Senseis top - and you have just turned each tutor into Ponder...

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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offler View Post
    Its not a problem for me to let opponnent reshuffle the deck. Not at all.

    Even when the shuffle is perfectly random, there are some theoretical probabilities what will be on the top. This is something i can count with after each shuffle. Combined with Senseis top - and you have just turned each tutor into Ponder...
    Yeah we already knew that though. I think the problem is I have no idea what you are talking about, in your first post you seem to be implying that shuffling just on it's own gives you an advantage because you can kind of half ass a shuffle and make certain cards end up in certain parts of the deck if you want, which doesn't really work and is more likely to get you a DQ for cheating than give you any kind of advantage vs. a good player who will shuffle your deck anyways.
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offler View Post
    ...you have just turned each tutor into Ponder...
    But tutors are generally 10 million times better than Ponder. That's why Ponder is still legal and most tutors are banned.

  16. #16

    Re: The power of shuffle.

    I think I might know what Offler's talking about a little with regards to randomness, even though I didn't try to read the post.

    The definition of "random" in the rules isn't truly random, because truly random is nearly impossible to achieve with physical cards. Instead the standard of randomness is "[not knowing] the position of or distribution of one or more cards".

    Mana weaving - or even pile shuffling - before you sideshuffle or riffleshuffle will affect the distribution of cards in your favor and is completely legal. I almost wish mana weaving / pile shuffling was completely banned, but I guess most people can't shuffle properly and probably never will be able to.
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    I think I might know what Offler's talking about a little with regards to randomness, even though I didn't try to read the post.

    The definition of "random" in the rules isn't truly random, because truly random is nearly impossible to achieve with physical cards. Instead the standard of randomness is "[not knowing] the position of or distribution of one or more cards".

    Mana weaving - or even pile shuffling - before you sideshuffle or riffleshuffle will affect the distribution of cards in your favor and is completely legal. I almost wish mana weaving / pile shuffling was completely banned, but I guess most people can't shuffle properly and probably never will be able to.
    Why do you wish pile shuffling was banned? Do you not understand that makes the deck MORE randomized?
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes View Post
    Why do you wish pile shuffling was banned? Do you not understand that makes the deck MORE randomized?
    It doesn't necessarily do. You can stack your deck beforehand in many different ways to profit from pile shuffling. Pile shuffling isn't exactly randomizing. It's rather stacking your deck without knowing how the cards end up.

  19. #19

    Re: The power of shuffle.

    Heh, I'm assuming (hoping?) that was sarcasm.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
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  20. #20
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    Re: The power of shuffle.

    You didn't really think I'd do that, did you? I mean. Technically it sure is possible, but seriously? Who would take the time to learn that? Basically every opponent will shuffle your library again anyway. Or at least make a cut. I think it's way more profitable to improve your actual playskill.

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