So Many Insane Plays -- Decoding the DCI

[Crysthorn]

Mindcensor is like Krosan Grip. It looks like an answer to Survival, but it's really not.

This.

It's also not a surprise that people who think Mindcensor is good against Survival also think that Survival wasn't a problem.

Most of these people probably have never played against a competent Survival pilot, that's why.

[SpikeyMikey]

So, having the option to play white and x Aven Mindcensors if you want to beat Survival is better than playing Survival and 1 Aven Mindcensor for the mirror? When the Survival deck is clearly a better deck against the field than any deck playing x Aven Mindcensors that does not also play Survival?

One of the things that I've learned from playing Legacy over the years is that bad hate bears are still bad unless you're playing exactly the opponent they're good against. 1 Aven Mindcensor is a necessary sacrifice in a Survival-fueled meta. 4 are likely a disaster waiting to happen.

Except Mindcensor isn't bad. Oh, it's a bit underpowered, which is why it doesn't see play; it's not a clock by any means. But it's effective against a wide variety of decks. Ever see a Mindcensor in response to IT or a Doomsday? Know how scary NO--> Noble Hierarch is? And VV's not dead. It's less resilient, but more explosive with the Entomb/Intuition builds. Survival was good, but it was slow, by it's very nature.

[Lemnear]

Mindcensor is like Krosan Grip. It looks like an answer to Survival, but it's really not.

It's also not a surprise that people who think Mindcensor is good against Survival also think that Survival wasn't a problem.

Hi, Rico

Didn't we pass the this level of discussion? I heared this song the last months: Enchantment-hate is no solution, graveyard removal isn't, blocking tutoring isn't, maindecking hate isn't, metagaming isn't .... Blah blah

Ban survival, cuz sideboarding 6 (sometimes not even good) cards (like the slow krosan grip or the weak gy-hate fairy maccabre) doesn't mean to beat survival at 80%+ Of the time? Seriously?

DCI: "according to SCG data: YES!"

[Karhumies]

Mindcensor is like Krosan Grip. It looks like an answer to Survival, but it's really not.

It's also not a surprise that people who think Mindcensor is good against Survival also think that Survival wasn't a problem.

To quote myself from before:

Ironically, the most efficient way to find Aven Mindcensor was to run Survival yourself, though, which may have been among the many reasons for SotF banning.

What I essentially meant by this statement was - and still is - this:
It's not that Survival could not be taken down by hate, it's that it took too many slots from MD/SB (for normally subpar cards like Aven Mindcensor) to remain competitive against the rest of the field. Unless you were running Survival yourself - in which case you could efficiently either tutor for the hatebear, or throw away the non-relevant MD hatebears to tutor for something more relevant in the MU. In effect, people were (rather successfully, I may add) fighting fire with fire, which is never a healthy sign.

[FoolofaTook]

To quote myself from before:


What I essentially meant by this statement was - and still is - this:
It's not that Survival could not be taken down by hate, it's that it took too many slots from MD/SB (for normally subpar cards like Aven Mindcensor) to remain competitive against the rest of the field. Unless you were running Survival yourself - in which case you could efficiently either tutor for the hatebear, or throw away the non-relevant MD hatebears to tutor for something more relevant in the MU. In effect, people were (rather successfully, I may add) fighting fire with fire, which is never a healthy sign.

Well put and how I should have described my point. Being forced to play otherwise subpar cards to try to handle a dominant deck that is playing very strong cards is almost always a sign that something is amiss in the meta, having those subpar cards be most efficiently played in the very decks that they are trying to take down is a blaring, honking signal that something is very wrong.

[Rico Suave]

Hi, Rico

Didn't we pass the this level of discussion? I heared this song the last months: Enchantment-hate is no solution, graveyard removal isn't, blocking tutoring isn't, maindecking hate isn't, metagaming isn't .... Blah blah

Ban survival, cuz sideboarding 6 (sometimes not even good) cards (like the slow krosan grip or the weak gy-hate fairy maccabre) doesn't mean to beat survival at 80%+ Of the time? Seriously?

DCI: "according to SCG data: YES!"

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I was merely trying to point out that a card like Aven Mindcensor, on the draw, doesn't actually stop someone from playing Survival on turn 2 and going nuts all over the place.

In a sense, it's sort of like trying to use a 3 mana counterspell to stop a 2 mana threat. What is the purpose of an answer if it isn't fast enough to answer the card it is intended to stop?

I'm not saying Mindcensor is a bad card. And there will be times that Mindcensor does stop them from using Survival, like if they are in the midgame and topdeck it while we have plenty of mana to cast Mindcensor. But I just wanted to try and point out that even if everyone was playing Mindcensor it wouldn't have stopped Survival from being worth banning.

[Hanni]

But I just wanted to try and point out that even if everyone was playing Mindcensor it wouldn't have stopped Survival from being worth banning.

Except that Vengevine is the card that is actually broken.

[Rico Suave]

Vengevine isn't broken by T2 standards. This is Legacy.

[Tammit67]

Vengevine isn't broken by T2 standards. This is Legacy.

I'm quite sure I don't know what you are implying

[emidln]

Mindcensor isn't a very good answer to Survival for the same reason it's not a good answer to Doomsday or Infernal Tutor. All three of those are likely to be played before you can cast Mindcensor. Sure, it might screw an opponent who draws into their business later, but if you're going to assume that their deck just doesn't function, there are better cards to take advantage of that assumption (Cool Story Bro: in tournament play I'm 1-0 when my opponent Mindcensored me in response to Infernal Tutor).

[Hanni]

Vengevine isn't broken by T2 standards. This is Legacy.

Right, and T2 doesn't have the same enablers as Legacy. Clearly when you have strong cards like Survival, Vengevine gets broken. Unfortunately, Survival is not the only enabler for getting multiple Vengevines into the graveyard. In fact, both Intuition and Buried Alive get (3) Vengevines into the graveyard much faster than Survival did, since Survival cost 1G just to get into play. Unless you discard Vengevine on the first Survival discard, you're spending 1GG just to get things started, and a G for each Vengevine after that. Intuition and Buried Alive cost 2U and 2B respectively, making them far faster at putting Vengevines in the graveyard.

You can argue about the staying power, silver bullet tutoring, and all that jazz all day long, but the newer versions of Vengevine that will be spawning are going to be alot faster and just as consistent as the Survival version. Vengevine is a 4/3 haste that essentially costs 0 mana, how is that not broken? If you spend 2U (Intuition), B (Putrid Imp), 0 (Rootwalla), your spending 2UB for two 1/1's (which can become 2/2 flying and 3/3, respectively) and three 4/3's with haste. How is that not broken?

What's worse, a Firespout (or similar) doesn't even save the day; another two more creatures will trigger the three 4/3 hasters right back into play, and both creatures can get countered by a Counterbalance and still trigger Vengevine.

Also, vulnerabilities like Needle on Survival and Krosan Grip on Survival are no longer present in the new builds. Couple that with the fact that the black splash providing Putrid Imp and Entomb make early broken starts like turn 1-2 double Vengevine far more consistent, and you're going to find out just how broken Vengevine is. I've been doing nothing but playtesting the hell out of Vengevine in various shells the last few days (and I played the hell out of the Survival versions too), and I firmly believe these Survival-less versions are alot more powerful than the Survival version was.

Not only that, but the deck gains alot of additional resilience with Bloodghast. Expect to see U/G/b Intuition Vengeghast to dominate Top 8's until March rolls around.

/rant

[Koby]

/rant

But Survival is banned! Surely we're safe from the menace now. The DCI spent a great amount of time figuring out how to fix the format! PChapin is infallible.

</sarcasm>

[alderon666]

Right, and T2 doesn't have the same enablers as Legacy. Clearly when you have strong cards like Survival, Vengevine gets broken. Unfortunately, Survival is not the only enabler for getting multiple Vengevines into the graveyard. In fact, both Intuition and Buried Alive get (3) Vengevines into the graveyard much faster than Survival did, since Survival cost 1G just to get into play. Unless you discard Vengevine on the first Survival discard, you're spending 1GG just to get things started, and a G for each Vengevine after that. Intuition and Buried Alive cost 2U and 2B respectively, making them far faster at putting Vengevines in the graveyard.

You can argue about the staying power, silver bullet tutoring, and all that jazz all day long, but the newer versions of Vengevine that will be spawning are going to be alot faster and just as consistent as the Survival version. Vengevine is a 4/3 haste that essentially costs 0 mana, how is that not broken? If you spend 2U (Intuition), B (Putrid Imp), 0 (Rootwalla), your spending 2UB for two 1/1's (which can become 2/2 flying and 3/3, respectively) and three 4/3's with haste. How is that not broken?

What's worse, a Firespout (or similar) doesn't even save the day; another two more creatures will trigger the three 4/3 hasters right back into play, and both creatures can get countered by a Counterbalance and still trigger Vengevine.

Also, vulnerabilities like Needle on Survival and Krosan Grip on Survival are no longer present in the new builds. Couple that with the fact that the black splash providing Putrid Imp and Entomb make early broken starts like turn 1-2 double Vengevine far more consistent, and you're going to find out just how broken Vengevine is. I've been doing nothing but playtesting the hell out of Vengevine in various shells the last few days (and I played the hell out of the Survival versions too), and I firmly believe these Survival-less versions are alot more powerful than the Survival version was.

Not only that, but the deck gains alot of additional resilience with Bloodghast. Expect to see U/G/b Intuition Vengeghast to dominate Top 8's until March rolls around.

/rant

Any Vengevine deck without Survival is going to be completely reliant on the graveyard, won't be able to abuse Basking Rootwalla for infinite CA and won't be able to get out of sticky situations by tutoring answers or going of in response.

But even a version with Intuition going off for 2 Vengevines on turn 3/4, a Firespout and you're down so many cards that your might not even be able to get to play 2 creatures next turn.

[Valrina]

people that think mind censor is no answer to surival just have to look at european detah and taxes lists.

Which often Run mind Censor or Arbiter main + the other one SB ... + 4 swords before boarding + some path after boarding + mangara + maindeck O-Ring + some GY hate from Sb + mothers to block and wonder oh wonder... they still have a descent rate against the rest of the field ! Wow ... how could that be ? Maybe because that is the way D&T is playable for years now. People that think a turn 2 Arbiter in an deck with such an threat density doesnt hurt surival bad should please show me how he combos off against the resolved arbiter T3 even if he started, if it is only possible with some crazy sick hand.

[SpikeyMikey]

Any VV deck without Survival is still not as all in as Dredge but is just as explosive. Long, long time ago, when this discussion FIRST hit, I said that VV decks without Survival would be less resilient, but faster, because of the inherent slowness of Survival of the Fittest. Because you're spending 2 cards and GGG1 just to get to your first two VV's in yard, assuming 1 in your opening grip. Intuition is 2U for 2 VV's in yard and 1 in hand whether you already have one or not.

[coraz86]

PChapin is infallible.

</sarcasm>

He does write for Star City, which does have a lot of extra copies of Leyline of Singularity and Bazaar of Wonders they'd probably like to exchange for cash money.

[Rico Suave]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same format that other people are.

For 3 mana, we already have the ability to put Emrakul into play. Why would I care about Vengevine?

[FieryBalrog]

Why play to beat Survival, when you can just play Survival yourself, and tech against the mirror? Just to be "different"? There is no prize for playing a random deck with MD mindcensors and arbiters that blows against the rest of the format.

Also, lol @ the Europeans still trying to ride that horse.

[Karhumies]

If you spend 2U (Intuition), B (Putrid Imp), 0 (Rootwalla), your spending 2UB for two 1/1's (which can become 2/2 flying and 3/3, respectively) and three 4/3's with haste. How is that not broken?

If I spend U (P.Tutor) and 2U (Show and Tell), I'm spending 2UU for putting Emrakul into play. Apparently, that is not broken. This is Legacy.

On a more serious note, creature discard outlets (Putrid Imp, Aquamoeba, etc.) are much easier to get rid of pre-SB than Survival was. Just ask any Dredge player about their PImp average life span. Also, while Intuition-BA-based Vengevine decks may be faster than Survival builds were, they have less options for SB hatebears and previous MD one-ofs. No more 1-of Trygon Predator, Llawan, Sower of Temptation/Gilded Drake, Waterfront Bouncer, Faerie Macabre. Even the Natural Order alternative plan has been hit somewhat, as you can not cantrip the topdecked big creature for something castable with Survival anymore. Sure, you can post-SB Intuition for 3x hatebear, but that is nowhere close to Survival efficiency of cantrip-tutoring to improve card quality. Currently, Peacekeeper, Humility and Leyline of the Void seem especially difficult for the UG madness deck to deal with.

With the SB tutoring engine gone, the deck will have to compromise its SB. In essence, the deck has become a glass cannon. More speed, less outs vs hate. Hopefully, it will stay under the radar -> facing significantly less SB hate than previously, allowing for better finishes with the list.

[Hanni]

Any Vengevine deck without Survival is going to be completely reliant on the graveyard, won't be able to abuse Basking Rootwalla for infinite CA and won't be able to get out of sticky situations by tutoring answers or going of in response.

But even a version with Intuition going off for 2 Vengevines on turn 3/4, a Firespout and you're down so many cards that your might not even be able to get to play 2 creatures next turn.

How do you figure? The deck is just as dependant on the graveyard as Survival was.

How does Basking Rootwalla provide infinite CA, exactly? Vengeghast still has an enormous amount of card advantage, btw.

Getting out of sticky situations by tutoring for silver bullets, I'll concede that point. That's the trade off for being faster. However, there are still a few silver bullets that can be tutored for via Intuition and Entomb.

I'm assuming you've yet to play with or against the new Vengevine lists if you think that Firespout puts the deck down so many cards that you can't recover.

Any VV deck without Survival is still not as all in as Dredge but is just as explosive. Long, long time ago, when this discussion FIRST hit, I said that VV decks without Survival would be less resilient, but faster, because of the inherent slowness of Survival of the Fittest. Because you're spending 2 cards and GGG1 just to get to your first two VV's in yard, assuming 1 in your opening grip. Intuition is 2U for 2 VV's in yard and 1 in hand whether you already have one or not.

The difference in resilience isn't even that much different, and I'd argue that the increase in speed is more valuable than the loss of silver bullets.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same format that other people are.

For 3 mana, we already have the ability to put Emrakul into play. Why would I care about Vengevine?

This statement is flawed. Show and Tell is completely different than Intuition. Show and Tell is a combo deck; Emrakul does nothing without Show and Tell (or Sneak Attack), and vice versa. Vengevine is an aggro deck. If Show and Tell gets countered, you're a fish out of water. If Intuition gets countered, the Vengevine player can still beat face. I win so many games off of a turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard Vengevine, discard Rootwalla, swing for 4, that it's not even funny.

If I spend U (P.Tutor) and 2U (Show and Tell), I'm spending 2UU for putting Emrakul into play. Apparently, that is not broken. This is Legacy.

So you set up with a card disadvantage tutor and require having Emrakul in hand. If Show and Tell gets countered, you have no board presence while you work on reassembling your combo. Show and Tell/Emrakul is clearly a strong that wins games, but it's still shut down by a number of cards.

A better way to explain this: How's your Merfolk and CounterTop matchups? I'm assuming they're rather difficult. Vengevine beats both of those. Maybe I'm wrong though, since Show and Tell was demolishing metagames while Survival Vengevine was scrubbing out left and right.

On a more serious note, creature discard outlets (Putrid Imp, Aquamoeba, etc.) are much easier to get rid of pre-SB than Survival was.

Umm... you mean that they can hit my creature with spot removal, where I respond by discarding the spells I wanted to discard? The deck doesn't blindly drop discard outlets waiting to draw into the cards it wants to discard... All the deck needs is one discard activation from its discard outlets to put Vengevines/Bloodghasts into play.

Also, while Intuition-BA-based Vengevine decks may be faster than Survival builds were, they have less options for SB hatebears and previous MD one-ofs.

If I'm worried about the opponent's hatebears, there's still toolbox options available to the Intuition/Entomb engine, like Crippling Fatigue.

I run FoW/Daze MD, Therapy SB (which I can tutor for with Entomb/Intuition), and a faster clock, what do I need hatebears for?

No more 1-of Trygon Predator, Llawan, Sower of Temptation/Gilded Drake, Waterfront Bouncer, Faerie Macabre.

Again, there options like Ray of Revelation if I really felt like I needed a toolbox approach.

Survival was slow, and needed to tutor for silver bullets because the opponent was capable of getting their hate into play before it set up its win. This deck can often race a Peacekeeper from coming into play. The deck still has Force of Will and Daze, too...

Even the Natural Order alternative plan has been hit somewhat, as you can not cantrip the topdecked big creature for something castable with Survival anymore.

CounterTop and Aggro Bant run Natural Order without Survival just fine.

Currently, Peacekeeper, Humility and Leyline of the Void seem especially difficult for the UG madness deck to deal with.

Peackeeper costs 2W and is vulnerable to plenty of sideboard options (like Crippling Fatigue). Humility doesn't stop the opponent from getting smacked in the face with a horde of 1/1's. Leyline of the Void is pretty savage, but that was still a problem for the Survival player, too. True, I can't tutor for a Qasali Pridemage, but I can still hit it with Krosan Grip or smack with a Jitte wearing Putrid Imp.

With the SB tutoring engine gone, the deck will have to compromise its SB. In essence, the deck has become a glass cannon. More speed, less outs vs hate. Hopefully, it will stay under the radar -> facing significantly less SB hate than previously, allowing for better finishes with the list.

The deck isn't a glass cannon, its a very fast and very powerful blue-based aggro/control that's extremely difficult to deal with without specific answers like graveyard hate. It loses a little bit of consistency without Survival for a large increase in speed. If anything, I'd say the Survival version was a glass cannon that revolved around Survival resolving (silver bullets are bad without their tutor). U/G/b Vengeghast never needs to resolve its namesake Intuition to explode a load in the opponent's face.

---

People thought Vengevine was junk in Legacy before Caleb slapped GP Columbus in the face with his dick, and if everyone wants to think Vengevine is crap without Survival, go right on ahead.