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Thread: Red Gate

  1. #21
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    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Kove View Post
    Terminate, while a solid card and one I really like, simply does whatever Black's already really good at. If you want singletarget removal that can only serve as removal I think Snuff Out might even be better than Terminate in this deck thanks to it's alternative and aggressive mana cost allowing you to cast multiple spells a turn.
    I disagree. The closest thing to Terminate is Smother because it takes care of almost every creatures in the format. Black has a plethora of removal but they all come with their drawbacks and limitations. For this very reason, running MB removal such as Snuff Out forces you to have an alternative in your SB. Also, any form of nonblack or 3+cc removal cannot destroy Percy.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    These lists look really suseptible to mana screw. Discounting wasteland and dark ritual ~16 mana producers seem low for a deck running things that cost BBB and 2BB. Dark Confidant decks can cheat with mana a little. A well placed stifle on your fetch or an opposing wasteland could be nasty.
    The mana base is the same as Eva Green. It is solid. Stifle on an early fetch is always nasty.

    Aside from that, the sideboard does need work and Dystopia looks promising. Null Rod is indeed faster/better than Shatterstorm in many scenarios, including affinity. Has anybody yet pondered on the use of Magus of the Moon as a 3of in the SB?

  2. #22

    Re: Red Gate

    I've been thinking about this for a while... Firespout is always awesome to have, as it is awesome to have an active Bitterblossom with it. So the idea is like the fae deck, abuse firespout synergy with fliers. So the decklist...

    3 Abyssal Persecutor
    3 Tombstalker
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir/VampireNighthawk/Hypnotic Specter

    4 Bitterblossom
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Duress
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Terminate/Firespout
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Dark Ritual ( I have mixed feelings about this card, and I honestly don't want to use it)
    2 Umezawa's Jitte

    mana as usual, along with 6-8 fetchlands to power out early Tombstalker

    what do you guys think?

  3. #23
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    Re: Red Gate

    I suggest you get -1 Blossom and -3 Hymn for +2 Thoughtseize/Inquisition and +2 Firespout. If you are going to abuse blossom and therapy, it is more important that you see your opponent's hand more often.

    But honestly, if you want to abuse blossom and jitte, I don't think red is the right color. I play the very same deck but with white and I get to use Stoneforge Mystic and Vindicate over Lightning Bolt, Terminate, and Firespout.
    Last edited by Qweerios; 01-01-2011 at 07:31 PM.

  4. #24

    Re: Red Gate

    I don't want to play those boring Eva Green and Deadguy lists and it's always interesting to think outside the box. And anyway, this is kinda Red Death so why we should be considering something not BR in the first place?

    So I'v tried it on MWS. I propably lost only against merfolk because of their mana denial plan with stifles and wastes. The only thing I didn't like is Persecutor, but I honestly don't knwo how to replace them. so the decklist lookes like this

    3 Tombstalker
    3 Abyssal Persecutor

    4 Vampire Nighthawk
    he makes up for the lifeloss, increases random burn matchups to auto-wins and can always trade with anything.


    4 Bitterblossom
    four of these, because you always want one in your opening and two bitterblossoms 90% is gg for your opponent.

    the discard package

    4 Duress
    4 Cabal therapy
    Therapy conflicts with Tombstalker, but it kinda depends on the situation most of the time. If you have a blossom out, you use your therapies, if you don't - stalker must eat it.
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    and I think it's enough for the discard, because after early game we want to draw threats, not even more discard.

    the removal package

    3 Firespout
    the idea-giver. there's a reason why faeries want to use it. It increases any aggro/tribal matchups to our favor, and anyway I heard that one sided board sweepers are srs bzns
    4 Terminate
    no comment here, it's really really good, against Goyf and friends, you know.
    4 Lightning Bolt

    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    Top can be anything from Fling to Sarkhan the Mad. I personaly don't like it because most of the time in the first turns we have to tap out almsot all the time, but I got used to it and I don't know, its good with fetchlands and allows us to dig for answers.

    4 Badlands
    5 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Marsh Flats
    4 Wasteland

    another good thing is that we can use stuff like Shattering Spree and REB in the SB.

    So anyway, I'm more than positive about this one and I'll be taking it for some tournaments for sure :D

  5. #25
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    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by hyc8028 View Post
    What are the reasons to exclude bob, nighthawk and bitterblossum?
    Bob
    Bittlerblossom
    Tombstalker

    :|
    I will make use of every tool that fate presents.

  6. #26
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    Re: Red Gate

    I really dont know about using Persecutor without Gatekeepers. 4 Terminate and 4 Therapy looks lacking in Percy removal. Especially when you use Therapy with blossom and tombstalker, and that you want Terminate for goyfs. Also, losing rituals is making the deck slower, less explosive. If you are looking for an alternative to Percy, get Bob, he fits perfectly into what you are trying to accomplish. To me, it is a different deck altogether.

    What about this list:


    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Vampire Nighthawk
    2 Abyssal Persecutor

    4 Bitterblossom
    4 Duress
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Terminate

    2 Umezawa's Jitte

    4 Wasteland
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Marsh Flats
    4 Badlands
    1 Mountain
    7 Swamp


    With such a low curve you can abuse Bob. You no longer have Firespout but you get to clear the board as it builds up with your 8 1CC 3 dmg spells.

  7. #27

    Re: Red Gate

    This may be totally wrong, but I have a soft-spot for Magma Jet. Scry would help you find a Bob or prime your next 2 cards; that being said, it's still 1 more for 1 less damage and may not provide enough value to make up that loss.

  8. #28

    Re: Red Gate

    Well Qweerios, our decklists are not that very different. But what I liked in the first place was the ability to use Firespout. Like, my meta has a lot of tribal, merfolks, goblins , usualy at least 40% of the field. And I never liked Chain Lightning, I've tried it in other red death decks and it wasn't very spectacular. I really want to run Bob, but it just flat out sucks with Tombstalker. And in this case, IMo Tombstalker is a must, because he's most of the time a BB beater, allowing to not to tap out. Your creature base is good, but I dunno, I need mah stalkerz alot :<

    And about Dark Ritual, it doesn't win games on it's own, it makes you overextended, it is a complete disadvantage, you will never get those godlike hands with hymn to tourach/duress/w/e, and I'd rather draw some bussiness of my topdeck rather than some dead Dark Rituals. Sorry for that, but I think it's completely unneeded :/

  9. #29
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    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustas View Post
    And about Dark Ritual, it doesn't win games on it's own, it makes you overextended, it is a complete disadvantage, you will never get those godlike hands with hymn to tourach/duress/w/e, and I'd rather draw some bussiness of my topdeck rather than some dead Dark Rituals. Sorry for that, but I think it's completely unneeded :/
    I couldn't disagree more on ritual there. Overextending is when you commit to a bad plan. More often than not, I have had my rituals power out great first, second turn plays with Thoughtseize, Hymn, Shades, Sinkholes, Therapies, Stalkers, and even Persecutors. The mana curve is designed to take advantage of rituals. They become giant growths for shades in the later stages of the game and are never dead when comes the time to play a second Stalker.

  10. #30

    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustas View Post
    And about Dark Ritual, it doesn't win games on it's own, it makes you overextended, it is a complete disadvantage
    Overextension is committing resources you should have held back. Dark Ritual is there to be cast, and it's been a staple in these kind of decks since it was printed. Casting a ritual to power out a spell 1 or 2 turns early is exactly what its there for. Ritual, itself, will frequently draw the counter-spell, since the blue-player understands that they may not have the option of countering the (or all) effects played off the Ritual. When this is the case, you have *not* overextended; you have drawn a counterspell while protecting your threats. You could attempt to make an argument about card-advantage, but it would still be incorrect.

  11. #31
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    Re: Red Gate

    Trying to argue that dark ritual isn't powerful is pretty absurd. You get two turns of tempo for your win con (in this case, your massive persecutor on turn 2) before the opponent can draw into or untap for an answer.

    Also, terminate is important because unlike most other black removal, it can handle persecutor.
    I will make use of every tool that fate presents.

  12. #32
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    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Overextending is when you commit to a bad plan.
    Congratulations. That's the philosophy that allows Red Death to thrive. I've been playing this deck for at least 9 tournaments at Eli's place. Quite needless to say, I've tested every card you can possibly think of in a modern pre-Emrakul tournament environment.

    Sinkhole - Wasteful, cut it and run Hymn. Seriously, Hymn's nasty, it's like a heat-seeking missile.
    Wasteland - Awesome, especially with Needle.
    Blightning - not powerful enough. Two cards and three damage, has never made anyone I played against shit themselves.
    Chain Lightning - Redundant, you run Lightning Bolt, and you're just making your Zoo build weaker.
    Bitterblossom - *chuckle*.
    Tombstalker - Nice fat. Problem is the yard. Especially when you hock it just to put TS on top of it because you flushed a FoW.
    Duress/IoK/TS - You don't need 1-spots. They're wasteful late-game, which is where your attention needs to be with Red Death.

    What you're going to find is that you'll have Percy and no way to get rid of him. Or a handful of 1-spots against Standstill. Also, all the builds I've seen here have *dick* game against something like Belcher or SI. And don't tell me that's what spot discard is for.

    After almost a year of 2-5, 3-4, 4-4 finishes, and even a decent showing at GP Columbus, I can tell you without a doubt that there are some small inconsistencies in what you think this deck should be doing.

    First things first. Sac outlets. That's the way you do Percy. Therapy is wonderful but I like Fling, and much prefer Diabolic Intent. Oh so many Bant and Zoo n00bs have been owned by Intent. Swing, swing, swing, Intent for Bolt. It works, and once you understand that Intent is faster than StP and Path (since fucking n00bs always try to play it IRT announcing attackers) you'll have no problem getting rid of Percy.

    Secondly, burn. If you run burn, run LB and nothing else. You don't need more than that.

    Thirdly, look at your life. Fetches, returnable burn, Bitterblossom, and Confidant. I'm shocked you ever saw a Turn 7. VNH does not mitigate all of these conditions, especially when you Bob into Tombstalker. I've seen that, it hurts.

    All in all, I've decided for my build, to aim for a more control-ish style.

    Creatures
    3 Abyssal Persecutor
    4 Vampire Nighthawk
    4 Blazing Specter
    4 Ball Lightning

    Artifacts
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Pithing Needle

    Spells
    2 Fling
    2 Diabolic Intent
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Damnation
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual

    Land
    4 Badlands
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    4 Blackcleave Cliffs
    4 Blood Crypt
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Mountain
    1 Swamp

    Sideboard
    3 Anarchy
    4 Volcanic Fallout
    4 Demigod of Revenge
    4 Leyline of the Void

    No, people don't like playing against it.
    Remember that time you left for a few days and your girl stayed behind?

    I kept her company.

  13. #33
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    Re: Red Gate

    Thanks for the insight. Your reasoning is logical and mostly derived from bad experiences, I apreciate that. Some very useful comments in there. I agree that Sinkholes have been suboptimal lately which is why I only run them because of Magus of the Moon in the sideboard. Diabolic intent is a great find and I definitely intend on trying that out in conjunction with Blossom. A few things don't appeal to me much though. 1 CC targeted discard is exteremely good, especially in conjunction with cabal therapy. When you get to see your opponent's hand within the first three turns of the game, you know exactly what to play, when to play it, what to expect, and what to therapy for. Thoughtseize/Duress is well worth the spot and works wonderfully when smoothing a ritual or assuring a win con. Another important point to me is Tombstalker. IMO, he is the number one reason not to run Bob. He is extremely fast, strong, evasive and easy to cast, can conveniently shrink goyf to a certain extent, and can abuse rituals. Also, why would you want to live to see a turn 7? If by turn 7 you havent won or severely handicapped your opponent, your deck isn't doing its job. The main reason for suicidal cards is because they have an impact on the game that outweighs the life loss. Although, life totals are important nonetheless and suicidal cards should only be played when bringing a clear advantage (such as Bob, TS, and to a certain extent, Blossom). Chain Lightning rarely ever bounce back to your face simply because it requires RR to be recast. Assuming your opponent has RR opened, he has to either know you were about to cast chain lightning or play a red deck that can afford to have RR opened (Burn decks are the only ones I can think of). As for sac outlets, it's about running cards that are good on their own and do not depend on having a Percy in play. Gatekeeper, Therapy, and Terminate are all good cards to use that can either disrupt your opponent, clear your opponent's board, or kill Percy. Fling and Intent are potential dead cards, they are simply fancy sac outlets that should be used as tech.

    As for your deck, I have a few questions:

    Why the manabase? You do not support wastelands and are extremely vulnerable to wastelands (19 lands and spells up to 4CC). It seems to me like you had terrible experiences with Stifle and gave up on fetchlands, basic lands, and therefore swapped Tombstalker for Ball Lightning.

    Why Blazing Specter instead of Hypnotic Specter? It attacks when it is cast, but it is cast a turn later, which comes to basically the same except that the discard isnt random. 4 CC is too much for the poor creature, especially with 19 lands.

    How do you ever know what to Therapy for? Do you just randomly name a card that you don't want cast against you? or do you wait until you can flash it back right away or have 2 in hand? It seems to me like you only use it as a sac outlet, fling or intent would be better in Therapy's stead.

    Pithing Needle main deck? How do you know what to use it for?

    Chalice main deck? Your spells range from 1-4CC, what the??

    No offense to you sir, but your deck list looks bad to me. Perhaps it works in your circle of friends or local store but I highly doubt it would fare well in any other environment.

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  15. #35
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    Re: Red Gate

    Unfortunately, just posting a decklist oftentimes doesn't speak for itself. It very much looks like a suboptimal midrange b/r deck with a recollection of favorites. Blazing Specters are still bad and I see no synergy. Please refrain from posting decklists without any analysis of pros and cons.

  16. #36
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    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    No offense to you sir, but your deck list looks bad to me. Perhaps it works in your circle of friends or local store but I highly doubt it would fare well in any other environment.
    None taken, it's natural for someone to question the parts they're unsure of.

    Needle almost always names Waste, Top or Jitte. They're serious problem cards for this deck. Not to mention that its nice to have a good reactive way of dealing with those pesky abilities.

    Chalice can be set all the way up to three with DR in there, and at any rate, setting @ 1 is powerful against just about anyone, and shuts off LB, StP, and PtE, which are all the one-spots I care about. As for turning off Therapy and Ritual, well, if I'm setting Chalice at 1 you can bet I don't give a shit about Therapy, it's still functional. And Ritual, well, you can bank I already cast one to get the Chalice out.

    Blazing Specter wins games. Period. There is no greater achievement than watching your opponent forced to choose one (or usually two, since they tend to have deck-sex) cards from his carefully-sculpted plan, that in a matter of a few turns, is reduced to topdecking his way to a game loss. Hippie is an iconic classic, I'll grant you that, but haste makes waste, especially when combined with flying and discard.

    As I said in the beginning, I've been playing this deck for a while. I know what beats it, and that's what I Therapy for. Spot discard was thoroughly tested (Duress, IoK, TS, Encroach, Shattered Dreams) and found to be lacking. Topdecking one of 8 spot discard spells has cost me at least ten different games. That warrants a cut in my book.

    And the reason I don't put Wasteland in the list is I don't own any. Otherwise, they'd replace Blood Crypt. As far as basics, I've been mana-locked in both colors, so I decided, since I have the means of being almost all-dual, might as well shoot for it. The only experience I've ever had with Stifle is when it was cast on Blazing Specter's combat ability......*chuckle*

    Trust me, once you get over Gatekeeper's inability to swing the game, the almighty and unnecessary Bob, and your complete inability to deal with artifacts and enchantments, you'll be changing your mind. I did, and I'm winning more games now.

    Besides, only idiots guess with Therapy. You can usually tell what your opponent is playing with the first land drop. And if you can't, they're more rogue than this deck, which has quite a few surprises up its sleeve.

    Notable victories include Dredge g2 + g3, SI, Belcher (Hymn FTW), NOCT Bant, Aeon Bridge (Needle + Chalice = :D), Fish, Aggro Elves, TES (back when I ran Shadow of Doubt), the list goes on. Zoo is still the biggest headache but early Hymn can assist with that, not to mention Chalice @ 1 shuts off 90% of their creature base and creature disruption.
    Remember that time you left for a few days and your girl stayed behind?

    I kept her company.

  17. #37
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    Re: Red Gate

    I can't see any reason for playing Blazing Specter over Hypnotic Specter. Hypnotic:
    - Can be played turn 1 with Dark Ritual;
    - Discards random cards (which can hurt A LOT more, since people tend to choose the card they need the least to discard);
    - Costs 1 less for the same body;
    - It's mono-black.

  18. #38
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    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigface View Post
    I can't see any reason for playing Blazing Specter over Hypnotic Specter. Hypnotic:
    - Can be played turn 1 with Dark Ritual;
    - Discards random cards (which can hurt A LOT more, since people tend to choose the card they need the least to discard);
    - Costs 1 less for the same body;
    - It's mono-black.
    You obviously don't have to sculpt your hands. Must be a Zoo player.

    Discard hurts either way, it's really a matter of preference to the player. Besides, I always loved giving them the option, it's not like they don't still have to contend with Hymn.

    Thoroughly, BS has proven its mettle to me. Whether or not you think him valuable, well, how many people want ass flavored popcorn?

    Don't like him, don't run him. Stick to an iconic creature that draws the eyes and evokes the memories. Besides, I've only ever had someone Path or Swords him once or twice, whereas my brother runs Hippies, and they eat everything, because everyone knows them. I've gotten more cross-eyed n00b looks on him than any other creature I've tested.

    And when you play them back to back and your opponent is suddenly discarding chunks of his hand, that he has to pick, you'll find that it really doesn't matter if you choose to waste the time agreeing on a 'random' solution, or just force your opponent to do all the leg work.
    Remember that time you left for a few days and your girl stayed behind?

    I kept her company.

  19. #39
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    Re: Red Gate

    cool deck.
    have you considered grim lavamancer (possibly over firespout)?
    i think one terminate should be a smother since you don't always have a badlands online

  20. #40
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    Re: Red Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by klaus View Post
    cool deck.
    have you considered grim lavamancer (possibly over firespout)?
    i think one terminate should be a smother since you don't always have a badlands online
    I did consider grim and i'm still considering him. Although, if I have a choice between playing more tombstalkers and more lavamancers, I choose stalkers.
    Yes I tried smother and it doesn't get rid of Percy. I understand that it is more easely casted than terminate as far as creature removal goes but the deck also contains 4 bolts and 4 gatekeepers. Having a badland online is very important and easely achieved.

    As for the Hypnotic vs Blazing argument. Seriously, think about it. Why do your opponents remove him more than your blazing? Simple, hes more dangerous. A good strategy doesn't rely on tricks and surprises, if a card is cheaper and stronger, use it.

    Pithing Needle now, naming wasteland? Since when is red death worried about having an opponent "waste" a land on destroying one of yours, thats contributing to your own agenda!

    For Chalice, if you set it at one in the fear of 1cc removal, why not preemptively strip that removal from your opponent's hand a turn sooner with 1cc targeted removal instead and NOT block yourself from using ritual or bolt or therapy. Why go as far as making 3 cards in your deck dead weights in the hopes of nullifying 1-2 of your opponent's?

    Blind therapies, it is not because you know every card in your opponent's deck that you know every cards in your opponent's hand. If my opponent plays counterspells and swords in his deck, what do i blindly therapy for? Also, why go for a lone sword when you could be previously informed of his 2 copies of counterspell? Therapy without hand information is as bad as using lightning bolt on the table next to you. What you are doing with your therapies my friend is exactly what you stated idiots did, you are guessing. Nothing more, nothing less.

    On an ending note, be careful of your assumptions. You do not know how many games, what decks I have played, what cards I have tested. Perhaps I have even more experience with that deck, perhaps I have played without enchantment removal in the past, perhaps Bigface has never even played Zoo before.
    Last edited by Qweerios; 01-07-2011 at 04:59 AM.

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