Red Gate

[Spigore]

Hey all,

After a couple of months I've decided to step away from this deck, though it's nice to see people still adapting with Kiln Fiend.
I would strongly suggest Bitterblossom. It's really a powerhouse vs control. Basically every game where i rushed out a t1/t2 blossom were won.
My experience is that Sinkhole, in the right (opening) hands can be a gamewinning card, though proceeding to t3+ it drastically loses its power. In my latest list, I stopped playing Sinkholes.

In playtesting, the only thing Obliterator made me do was facepalming over its manacost.

I like your latest list Qweerious, though I would run Thoughtseize over Kozilek and cut the Flings for Terminate.
Also, where did Hymn go to?

[Qweerios]

Ah you read my mind. I have not posted it but I did change the Flings for Terminates and did weep over the loss of Hymn. Sinkholes bit the dust in favor of burn and I had to lose Wasteland because the deck is so mana hungry for black and red. The Gitaxian Probes have also left the deck in favor of a Duress/TS mix.

About IoK vs TS. It is obvious that TS is a better card when isolated from context. Ever since IoK was spoiled from Eldrazi I have made the swap from TS to IoK in all of my black based decks. IoK can discard virtually any legacy card with the exception of Jace, Natural Order, and Jace. These are the only 3 four cmc+ cards that that I commonly see. Jace usually eats the burn and rolls over and FoW is something I honestly dont mind leaving in my opponent's hand when I pack 4-8 other sources of discard. Unless I am facing lots and lots of sneak attack or artifact stompy decks, I will gladly play IoK over TS. Furthermore, TS' life loss cumulates with Bob, fetches, and blossoms to the dangerous point where many of those have to be sided out in the aggro matchup.

However, I will admit that I do miss Hymn and Ritual greatly.

Here is a new concept I am trying:

Kiln Fiend discard

Creatures (18)
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nyxathid
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Spells (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Terminate

Lands (18)
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

[neosatus]

Hey Qweerios, saw this post was yours and recognized you from the "Special Forces" thread, decided to check it out. Just played two games on Cockatrice with your latest version and had to share how they went.

Game 1, I join this guys game
I open with Dark Rit > Bob.
He plays Goblin Gaveleer.
I play a second Dark Rit > Percy.
He plays a Paradise Mantle and equips to the Goblin.
I play Gatekeeper, making him sac his Gob, then swing with Bob and Percy.
He kicks me from the game.

Game 2, I host a game and the same guy rejoins
He leads off with Glimmervoid > Bonesaw.
I open with IoK and grab his Puresteel.
He then drops Lightning Greaves, going down to two cards in his hand.
I play Hymn to Tourach.
He disconnects.

The hate is strong with this one.

[Qweerios]

Ah! Black is indeed a color that tends to be hated and discriminated against. No pun intended... :P

[Greenpoe]

Doesn't 18 lands seem low to support a 4-drop? When you don't manage to stick a Bob, getting to 4 lands can be difficult with only 18 land. You could drop Persecutor for the 4th Nyxathid, trade Therapies for Thoughtseizes, and add in a couple Tombstalkers, or Nantuko Shade if you're afraid of Bob+Stalker, since both of them go well with mid or late game Rituals.

[Iare]

Qweerios, You don't run enough discard for Nyxathid. If they misstep your Inquisition you are likely going to wiff with therapy therefor making Nyxathid an inconsistent card in the deck as it is built. I would replace them with the forth terminate and two reanimates, I love reanimating bob or my opponent's Tarmagoyf. Plus they are easy targets for boarding out against combo :)

[Qweerios]

Dark Ascension gives a new toy to this deck: Geralf's Messenger

Rehashing Fling with Cabal Therapy and Abyssal Persecutor sounds like it could make a good mix coupled with red burn, Hymns, and Bob.

Furthermore, DKA isn't done spoiling Undying creatures, Fling feels ripe again.

Also, I didn't tinker with Red Gate for a while, I haven't tried Liliana of the Veil yet...

[Qweerios]

For Freggles:


Creatures (16)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
4 Geralf's Messenger

Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach

Other (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
6 Swamp


I didn't actually test it out but I feel like Therapy and Smallpox are some of the best ways to abuse Bloodghast. If you choose a red splash for bolt spells in a deck abusing those interactions, Messenger fits quite nicely. I filled the blanks with Legacy staples.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

I've found that Liliana isn't quite as effective as you might think. I wouldn't run her, she's too fair. This deck has to do alot of 2-for-1's to be effective. Plus in recent testing I've discovered this deck has an AMAZING game against G/W Maverick.

This actually happened:

T1: Badlands, Ritual, Ritual, Duress (nails only Swords), Persecutor. Instant win. :-D

[Qweerios]

I've found that Liliana isn't quite as effective as you might think. I wouldn't run her, she's too fair. This deck has to do alot of 2-for-1's to be effective. Plus in recent testing I've discovered this deck has an AMAZING game against G/W Maverick.

This actually happened:

T1: Badlands, Ritual, Ritual, Duress (nails only Swords), Persecutor. Instant win. :-D

I don't see how that's conclusive. Would you mind elaborating a bit on your findings?

[KærvekTheMerciless]

That is an example of one of the plays that, in my experience, has caused opponents to pick up their deck, and walk away.

I remember one I did at GP: Columbus.

T1: Swamp, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Hymn x2. Nailed his only lands (2), a Vindicate, and a Inquisition of Kozilek. He scooped.

Which findings are you referring to? Liliana, or G/W Maverick?

As far as Liliana, forcing yourself to discard cards, well, without some manner of draw engine, you're gonna burn out quick just trying to increase her loyalty. And really, her -2, thats underwhelming at best. It doesn't mean that she is terrible, just terrible in this deck.

Consider how long you'll have her on the table vs. Zoo.

As for Maverick, well, one of my playgroup partners built it out of spare cardboard, and needless to say, if you played against a deck and won 9 times in a row, well, you would say that too.

[Spigore]

I just couldn't resist picking up this little gem.

3 Badlands
1 Mountain
7 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor

3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dreadbore

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual

Looking back to my previous list; I found myself empty handed during midgame. Rarely even topdecking and waiting for a Percy outlet. Putting some card advantage through Dark Confidant seems like a good idea. Unfortunately pretty boy Tombstalker has to go in favor of the little man.

I found Gatekeeper of Makalir, asking for BBB, a little hard to kick. Vampire Nighthawk seems like a very powerful replacement, netting you some lifepoints per swing to cover up Dark Confidant's life loss.

With the coming of Dreadbore, this auto replaces Terminate. Can't wait!

I've been crunching over Dark Ritual. Mid/Late-game it loses it's edge, however I just can't seem to move this card out. There are numerous 1cc and 2cc cards (or Nighthawk) to blow out on the first turn. Second turn Percy or combinations of two 2cc's are monsterous as well.

I'm not sure yet on the 4 Dreadbore, 2 Cabal Therapy. Toying around with a 3/3 split ; it feels better mid/lategame, to play 4/2. There's just more raw power in Dreadbore when you want to fully turn the game to a win.
Therapy serves as a more safe Percy outlet as well, but meh.

Sideboard being worked on.

[Greenpoe]

Gatekeeper's BBB does get easier to hit with Ritual though. Plus, you need the outs for killing Percy. With only 2 Therapy, no Gatekeeper and no Terminate, good luck killing your own Percy. Is Bolt even that good when you could just play Lavamancer or even both Gatekeeper & Nighthawk?

[kwis]

I don't understand why a Persecutor deck is playing less than 4 Cabal Therapy. It's quite likely the most broken card to use with him. Not to mention busted for BB openings.

You almost always want your removal for him to be a Cost so that whenever you have priority you can simply end the game after dropping their life <= 0


I also think and Eva build would likely be more effective than a red death one given how potent Decay is. Dreadbore is really just a worse terminate, it's sorcery speed and the only planeswalker you might try killing is Jace, after he pays himself back.

[Spigore]

Hi Greenpoe,
Dreadbore is able to kill Percy as well. The problem I came across with Gatekeeper that you sometimes get stuck, not being able to BBB. Yes Ritual does solve that. However casting BBB for the main purpose of removing your own creature is a useless mana-dump. You don't want to play agressive and keep your Gatekeeper in your hand, waiting to topdeck Percy or waiting for Percy to hit your opponent to 0.

Hi kwis,
Thanks for your response. You are very right. C.Therapy is a very powerful card. However it loses it's edge after stripping down your opponent's hand during the first turns. Dreadbore keeps it's value, especially when your opponents are straight out playing their topdecked cards.
I'm still not sure whether or not Therpay/Dreadbore should be 2-4 or 3-3 or whatever.
Yes, Abrupt Decay is a strong card. EVA Green does play a little different from (Red) Gate though.

[Qweerios]

Desecration Demon is a straight upgrade from Percy.

[kwis]

Desecration Demon is a straight upgrade from Percy.

Not sure about that, any kind of recursive or token dude laughs at him.

Bitter Blossom
Lingering Souls...
Bloodghast
Gravecrawler
SFM + Batterskull w/5 mana

[slave]

I've gave the RB and WB version of the GATE deck a shot against some of my straight up combo decks.
And it failed miserably.... Inquisition of Kozy really isn't the best choice against some decks, I really think you need Thoughtsieze in there to get the higher cost stuff like Omniscience, Griselbrand, Hive Mind etc. Some extraction here would REALLY help too.
Jitte is an all-star, one of the best parts of the mono-black gate, why is it not in most of the lists anymore?
My Dream Halls deck isn't really competitve as I run a lot of basic lands, and after about 20 games of testing to both WB & BR I couldn't win more than 1 game with Gate, apart from the one time I drew False Cure in my opening hand and I lost my win-con to Inq. of Kozy.
1/20 is abyssmal VS a slow combo deck. (turn 4 or 5)

This deck could do with more disrupting your opponents' strategy maybe.
But at least this deck IS fun to play.