U/G/W Vial Bant

[Jeff Kruchkow]

There is no possible way that not running the best removal spell in the format is right. None. Swords solves so many problems and makes sure you dont just lose when an opposing creature deck drops something you can't handle (Super large Knight, Lackey, LoA etc)

[otherside]

Swords > Ethercast Knight.

Ethersworn Canonist would probably work better against storm because they have multiple win cons unless your facing a lot of show and tell.

[otherside]

Maybe try this:

Same Manabase

4 Hierarch
4 Goyf
4 Knight
3 Pridemage
3 V Clique
3 RWM

4 Fow
4 Daze
4 Swords
4 Vial
3 Spell Pierce/Snare/Stifle

17 blue cards is probably not enough though. Natural order fits better than vial in this shell imo.

[SpikeyMikey]

There is no possible way that not running the best removal spell in the format is right. None. Swords solves so many problems and makes sure you dont just lose when an opposing creature deck drops something you can't handle (Super large Knight, Lackey, LoA etc)

Fish doesn't run Swords and yet it still manages to win. With irritating consistency. Affinity doesn't run Swords either. I wouldn't call it a great deck, but it can still run people over. It's not like you have no way of interacting with your opponent and stopping large threats. You do run a lot of counters plus mana denial that can all be utilized while still dropping creatures on the board. And despite being 3 colors, you still have a more stable mana base than splash-color Fish decks because you're packing mana fixing in Hierarchs and don't run 8 colorless lands.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Fish doesn't run Swords and yet it still manages to win. With irritating consistency. Affinity doesn't run Swords either. I wouldn't call it a great deck, but it can still run people over. It's not like you have no way of interacting with your opponent and stopping large threats. You do run a lot of counters plus mana denial that can all be utilized while still dropping creatures on the board. And despite being 3 colors, you still have a more stable mana base than splash-color Fish decks because you're packing mana fixing in Hierarchs and don't run 8 colorless lands.

Yes merfolk does win without swords. But it also has HUGE issues against any non-blue creature deck. And saying you have "a lot of counters" isn't really true since you have only 4 force and 4 daze to stop dudes. And daze stops being potent really fast.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yes merfolk does win without swords. But it also has HUGE issues against any non-blue creature deck. And saying you have "a lot of counters" isn't really true since you have only 4 force and 4 daze to stop dudes. And daze stops being potent really fast.

Depending on what you're doing with your Wastelands. You don't exactly need all game. If they play around Daze, they're behind the 8-ball before they can land their KotR, if they don't, they walk into it. I'm not saying the deck is going to win every game, but when Hanni says that it's been mindblowing for him, I'll trust him. He's got a decent pedigree. I'm still playing my original version. Just from looking at his listing, I think it's as different from this as this is from standard Bant aggro, which makes it difficult for me to speak from my own experience. And until after the SCG 5K in KC next weekend, I won't have time to test and tweak anything but my list, since it's too late in the game to be switching decks again.

I know that this is something you constantly hear scrubs say about bad decks, but I'm going to say it anyway. Put it together on Workstation or Cockatrice, throw it against the wall, and see if it sticks for you. If you still feel like it needs StP, then try and fit it in.

[ScatmanX]

Really like the deck.

Have you tried Coralhelm Commander in the 2cc slot dude?
1 - he's blue.
2 - he's 2cc.
3 - he get's to be a 4/4.
4? - When he's pumped to max, he gives Selkie +1/+1.

Just seems like a solid beater, even without the other Merfolks.

Another thing: Stoneforger pack SB is a great idea. I think that, against Goblins, you'll probably need it, just like Merfolk needs something.
Would like to see how Dredge goes with just 2 Bokuja SB too.

[SpikeyMikey]

Remember you've got 4 KotR to find your Bogs. If they're on the play with a fast hand and you don't have Force for the PImp/Tribe, I think they smoke you. If you're on the play, you've got Force and Daze which should give you time to find either Bog or better yet KotR into Bog.

CC seems like a good idea.

[4eak]

I'm a huge fan of Aether Vial (and I defend it where others very often don't). I'm really not convinced (and I've built this deck before...I always test Vial in creature decks), Vial is worth it in this deck. What makes this deck better, overall, than a straightfoward Bant aggro/control deck?

// Lands - 20
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains

// Creatures - 20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells - 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm

The main spell differences will be:

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spell Pierce

vs.

4x Aether Vial
4x Ethercaste Knight
1x Vendilion Clique

Give me good reasons why I should choose the latter. My testing points towards the former. From a vacuum, as well, the comparison doesn't look like much of a contest to me. When I weigh Vial and threat density against the sheer card quality of Brainstorm (letting you run only the best of each function, including threats) and the board impact of StP, I just don't see how Vial/Knight comes out on top.

Just to be clear: this deck doesn't abuse Vial nearly as well as Merfolk.

Lastly, while playing around Counterbalance is important, I think there are other ways to do this besides Vial (despite Vial being the best answer in the game) which won't require you to sacrifice staples like Brainstorm and StP.



peace,
4eak

[mossivo1986]

I'm a huge fan of Aether Vial (and I defend it where others very often don't). I'm really not convinced (and I've built this deck before...I always test Vial in creature decks), Vial is worth it in this deck. What makes this deck better, overall, than a straightfoward Bant aggro/control deck?

// Lands - 20
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains

// Creatures - 20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells - 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm

The main spell differences will be:

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spell Pierce

vs.

4x Aether Vial
4x Ethercaste Knight
1x Vendilion Clique

Give me good reasons why I should choose the latter. My testing points towards the former. From a vacuum, as well, the comparison doesn't look like much of a contest to me. When I weigh Vial and threat density against the sheer card quality of Brainstorm (letting you run only the best of each function, including threats) and the board impact of StP, I just don't see how Vial/Knight comes out on top.

Just to be clear: this deck doesn't abuse Vial nearly as well as Merfolk.

Lastly, while playing around Counterbalance is important, I think there are other ways to do this besides Vial (despite Vial being the best answer in the game) which won't require you to sacrifice staples like Brainstorm and StP.



peace,
4eak

Just sayin'

[Ciberon]

I have to ask. Why no Swords to Plowshares in the deck?

[Hanni]

There is no possible way that not running the best removal spell in the format is right. None. Swords solves so many problems and makes sure you dont just lose when an opposing creature deck drops something you can't handle (Super large Knight, Lackey, LoA etc)

and

Swords > Ethercast Knight.

and

The main spell differences will be:

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spell Pierce

vs.

4x Aether Vial
4x Ethercaste Knight
1x Vendilion Clique

Give me good reasons why I should choose the latter. My testing points towards the former. From a vacuum, as well, the comparison doesn't look like much of a contest to me. When I weigh Vial and threat density against the sheer card quality of Brainstorm (letting you run only the best of each function, including threats) and the board impact of StP, I just don't see how Vial/Knight comes out on top.
.

and

I have to ask. Why no Swords to Plowshares in the deck?

There has only been a very limited amount of times where I wish I had a Swords to Plowshares. The most memorable was against B/G Pump Infect where he finally resolved a guy (the 1/1 flyer), didn't do a whole lot for a long time, and then when he was 1 turn from death, cast double Invigorate + Berserk ftw.

The deck just runs straight gas. Rather than try to be reactive and remove my opponent's creatures, I just keep casting my own. It's a similar philosophy that Merfolk has. I have big ass guys to hold the ground, and I can swing through with one really big ass guy that they are forced to chump block, or take alot of damage. Especially if I do decide to go with Esper Stormblade (flying), I don't see many situations where I'm worried about having removal.

I have to ask, for those suggesting Swords, who has actually tried the decklist as posted? I appreciate criticisms, but I keep seeing the same thing. The deck does not need Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck. Being proactive and laying threat after threat has been winning me match after match, especially when my threats are great on defense and are larger on offense than anything the opponent's have on defense.

I've 2-0'd 4 Zoo decks now, all of whom had their own Goyf's and KotR's in play. I've 2-0'd Aggro Loam twice now, both of whom had their own Crushers and Goyf's in play. You have to realize that those decks are slower than I am at getting those guys out (and growing them large). The reason for this is because the oppponent's are playing against a deck that slows their development down via Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/FoW/etc, while in the meantime, is accelerating its own development via Hierarch/Vial.

This strategy just works. If before Merfolk became popular, you would have asked me what I thought about that deck on paper, I would have bashed it, and I did bash it way back when. Clearly I was wrong back then. The fact is, the strategy works, and it wins games. I'm not doing anything different in here than what Merfolk does (no Brainstorm/StP, etc). All I did was cut the shitty Merfolk for better creatures, which improved the various aggro matchups, because midrange Bant Aggro has better aggro matchups than Lord-dependant Merfolk does.

I also stronly disagree with your assumption 4eak, whether you tried the deck before or not. I always want to see a Vial in my opener, you would not believe how much more powerful this deck is with a turn 1 Vial vs no Vial. I'd much rather run Vial than Brainstorm or Swords to Plowshares in this deck, straight up. If this deck were modeled like CounterTop or Supreme Blue, it would be a different story, but it's not.

Vial and threat density is why I keep winning games with this deck. It's funny, too, because in a normal Bant deck, getting hit by an opponent's StP or PtE really sucks, and in here I just laugh and lay another guy down. It's nice when my entire hand is nothing but creatures and I have a Vial in play, and my opponent's get so frustrated cause these big ass guys just keep coming and coming, with no end in sight.

You say you built this deck before, but I question how you built it. I can see, in a vacuum, tossing Vial into the deck and not being impressed with it. I've done that before with other decks, with unpleasant results. The fact of the matter is, this deck is modeled directly after Merfolk. That means it mimics Merfolk's curve exactly, spell count for spell count. The same number of 1cc, 2cc, and 3cc creatures and spells. The same threat density. The same countermagic package. The same (actually more intense with KotR) mana denial package.

I've said it once, and I'll repeat it again. If you look at this deck as a Bant deck first, then you're misinterpreting it. It's like misassigning your role in a matchup, playing the beatdown when you should be the control or vice versa. This deck needs to be looked at like it's a Merfolk deck first. When you do that, you can make more manageable comparisons, like "why is this better than Merfolk," and "how is X creature in here better than Y creature in Merfolk." When you make those comparisons, it becomes obvious. This deck doesn't weaken matchups that were already good for Merfolk, but it signifcantly improves matchups that were bad for Merfolk.

Just to be clear: this deck doesn't abuse Vial nearly as well as Merfolk.

Lastly, while playing around Counterbalance is important, I think there are other ways to do this besides Vial (despite Vial being the best answer in the game) which won't require you to sacrifice staples like Brainstorm and StP.

I again, disagree. I think this deck gains just as much value out of Vial as Merfolk does. In fact, I feel like it abuses Vial even more, because I can singlehandly destroy my own manabase with KotR if I have a Vial in play to either destroy my opponent's manabase, draw cards, or both. Also, this deck can Vial in extremely big guys; with Merfolk, you can anticipate (at least somewhat) the size of the Merfolk players creature(s) if they Vial in a lord. In here, the opponent never knows what to expect, which makes combat math much more difficult for the opponent to read.

Also, the point of this deck isn't to specifically beat CounterTop. I mean it is, but it isn't. The point of this deck is to beat blue decks in general, which can include CounterTop, but isn't limited to. There may be other ways to beat CounterTop, but this is the best way to beat blue decks in general (as evidenced by Merfolk's dominance). The fact that I still beat Merfolk's good matchups (Combo, CounterTop, Control), but now I beat Merfolk's worst matchup too (Zoo)... I don't see why this idea is catching so much flak. I mean, I know people hate change, and my outside the box thinking is, well... outside the box, but still.

I guess I'll just leave it at that. If I keep seeing the same things over and over, like 20 posts that tell me I'm dumb for not running Swords to Plowshares, I'll just let the thread die. I know this deck rapes faces, but I'm not going to keep defending the same deckbuilding choice over and over until my face turns blue. I'll just keep playing with it and winning, while people keep playing their inferior Merfolk and Vial-less Bant Aggro decks.

[lordofthepit]

Really like the deck.

Have you tried Coralhelm Commander in the 2cc slot dude?
1 - he's blue.
2 - he's 2cc.
3 - he get's to be a 4/4.
4? - When he's pumped to max, he gives Selkie +1/+1.

Just seems like a solid beater, even without the other Merfolks.

I'm a fan of this as well. Hanni, have you playtested Coralhelm, or do you have any reason to believe it wouldn't work?

A bit of an aside--I noticed one ANT deck that had top 8'ed in a recent SCG tournament ran a transformational sideboard ran 4 Tarmogoyfs, 4 Confidants, 4 Coralhelms, and 3 Cliques. Coralhelm may look a bit underwhelming in Legacy, but unfortunately, it's as good as a blue beater gets.

[Koby]

Reasons why I like this deck:
Makes FoW, Daze and Wasteland all really awesome.

Reasons I don't like this deck:
No answers to Turn 1 Lackey and resolved fliers (Tombstalker, I'm looking at you).

I was thinking during play about how much Vial would be great in a deck that's streamlined as I was playing Bant Aggro over the weekend. I'll give it a shot with 3 AEther Vials and see how it's working out.

Also, a suggestion for the 2cc slot; Spellstutter Sprite to continue the punishment of the countermagic. Also, flying is starting to get important in creature feature decks. It's also got a fairly easy mana cost if you need to hard cast. Synergy with Cliques too.

[Hanni]

Really like the deck.

Have you tried Coralhelm Commander in the 2cc slot dude?
1 - he's blue.
2 - he's 2cc.
3 - he get's to be a 4/4.
4? - When he's pumped to max, he gives Selkie +1/+1.

Just seems like a solid beater, even without the other Merfolks.

I'm a fan of this as well. Hanni, have you playtested Coralhelm, or do you have any reason to believe it wouldn't work?

Have not playtested it yet, but I also like the idea, so I will try it out.

Reasons I don't like this deck:
No answers to Turn 1 Lackey and resolved fliers (Tombstalker, I'm looking at you).

I concede the weakness to turn 1 Lackey without Swords, which is one of the few cases where I do wish I ran it.

Getting beat by Tombstalker requires specific situations to be met, though, like the opponent having alot of chump blockers. Normally, a single Rhox War Monk races a Tombstalker, let alone a massive Exalted Knight of the Reliquary.

I'll give it a shot with 3 AEther Vials and see how it's working out.

I'd really advise against this. Vial is the best card in the deck, you should run 4. You always want to see a Vial in your opener, and a second Vial is always welcome (having one set for 2 and one set for 3 is awesome). Not to mention, if they blow your first Vial up with a Qasali or something. I'd never run less than 4 Vials in this deck.

[Koby]

I have 3 Vials in my collection. If I like the results from limited playtesting, then I'll go for the 4th. As of right now, I see it thusly:

Noble Hierarch and AEther Vial both serve the same function: creature ramp. I'm a bit skeptical about the list, and will go ahead and test the plan. I've been playing with lots of Bant aggro setups in the last few weeks, so it's getting tricky to evaluate which variant I prefer.

Except CBtop. G-d I hate spinning Top 6 times a turn digging for some bullshit answer. Proactive > reactive.

[Hanni]

I have 3 Vials in my collection.

Fair enough.

It won't take you long to long to figure out how rediculously good Vial is, though.

As of right now, I see it thusly:

Noble Hierarch and AEther Vial both serve the same function: creature ramp.

Agreed. The deck is very mana hungry, 6 of its lands can be used as spells instead of tapping for mana, Knight of the Reliquary can turn excess lands into land destruction or card draw midgame, and Noble Hierarch adds Exalted triggers. Considering the decks heavy mana requirements too (GW, UW, UGW, etc), the mana ramp works beautifully. You want an acceleration piece turn 1, and running both Hierarch and Vial make that plan consistent.

[Hanni]

Okay, so I tested Coralhelm Commander. Coralhelm Commander is fucking awesome in this deck. Amazing suggestion, Scatman X.

UU is pretty easy to get, and even as a 2/2 at first, he's still solid. The deck typically has excess mana sources available because of Hierarch and Vial, and Coralhelm usually utilizes otherwised unused mana. Even if pumping him does conflict with being able to drop a creature, it's usually not a big deal. Having 5 flying creatures now has been the difference in several games, and I definitely see his spot being solidified until they print something better.

[from Cairo]

Honestly, I don't really like the design of this deck (no StP, janky 2cc drops), but reading through the thread I can appreciate what you're saying about wanting to have access to the Green and White creatures (NH, QP, Goyf, KotR) while maintaining a high Blue card count for Force of Will.

With that in mind have you considered Stormscape Apprentice? I'm pulling this idea from Death and Taxes' use of Goldmeadow Harrier, which I found to be pretty solid as 1cc creatures 5-6 in that deck. Perhaps as a 2-of in place of 1x Coralhelm Commander and 1x Vendilion Clique (since you now have Coralhelm to break ground stand offs)? As it is your Aether Vial only has Noble Hierarch to curve out with, and it sort of bulks out at 2 and 3 drops, which is fine when Vial sticks and stays in play, but maybe lowering the curve a bit would give you a bit more stability.

Just something that came to mind that I didn't see listed in your tested cards.

[Greenpoe]

Looter il-kor is another option. Discard a land for KOTR or to buff Goyf, discard extra vials or late-game Dazes and he carries equipment like a champ.