How many green creatures does Enchantress run, that you would want to run 4 Argothian Enchantress, and X of this card to find the Enchantress? Eventually, your deck will have X dead cards in it, which I certainly don't think is a good thing.
If you've used all 4 of your argothians then you're either probably in the lead or not winning anyway.Originally Posted by Namida
Not certain, but +4x Xantid Swarms, Dryad Arbor, enchantment destruction for Counter Balance etc. combined with color fixing or mana ramping via Tinder Wall gives the card a ton of versaility. I can't really find a creature at a mana cost that'd win the game on an Empty the Warrnes or Diminishing Returns level, but if not Belcher there's probably some deck out there with enough mana generation to break it like Elves.
I mean, it probably just gets tossed into every aggro-control there is, I just find it really funny how Dryad Arbor + ??? probably makes this card playable in anything you throw it in.
Then, will they see the card as degenerate and, sooner o later, ban it?
Or will they ban something else that enables the combo to work, like they did with survival and vengevine?
4 copies of this card is crazy: mana intensive -sure- but it's nuts with SDT, shuffling and drawing... And shuffling... And drawing...
4x SDT
4x Hierarch
4x Goyf
4x This
Xx Toolbox/ Fat Green Creatures
They wont ban this card in Legacy...
Its going to be in Standard for a year and a half.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Turn 1 Forest, this for Dryad Arbor.
Turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Natural Order.
Green Chalice Aggro just recieved another way of turn 2 Prog and also great tutor tool.
I just love how versatile this card is. Llanowar Elves on turn 1-2, Tarmo/Qasali/Teeg on turn 3-4, everything you dream about after turn 5.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Let me fill your decklist :
3x Dryad Arbor
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
Then, you can go for a blue shell with CB (cause you're already packing those SDT), cantrips and FoW...
And play some utility guys aka Pridemages, Predators or RWM as 1-2ofs that GSZ can tutor for...
You have a great tempo curve : Turn 1 Tropical, GSZ for Dryad. T2 Island, GSZ for Goyf (or CB+Top, Goyf Daze Proof etc...). T3 NO=>Prog.
Or the classical Bant start with T1 Hierarch and T2 Goyf or GSZ=>Goyf/Pridemage and so on...
But it could create a new aggro deck, or a more classic one with a twist alla Zoo=>BigZoo
[EDIT] See above : GSZ put Llanowar Elves into play with a Chalice alreday set @1 on the board. Go Go Stompy ?!
I like it for getting Pridemages and Predators clearing up board space in decks that hate having that stuff main decked. Too bad it's only green creatures, I'd love to be able to get a Cavern Harpy, Painter, or something like that.
People are viewing this card wrong.
Yes, it's a tutor for Elves. Yes, it's fantastic with Dryad Arbor.
For real, though, this card is Tarmogoyf 5-8 for everyone who always ever wanted to run it.
You've seen the discussions, right? Tarmogoyf should have been a 3-drop? Well, now it is.
White-Green won't like it as much, because, well, Knight of the Reliquary is better than a 3-drop Goyf. Or maybe it will, because now you can run 4-drop Knights of the Reliquary, also. But any green-black concoction packing Tarmogoyf ought to go pick this up immediately. And it's Dark Confidant friendly too. Only losing one life to get a free Tarmogoyf? Sweet times, guys, sweet times.
The card has playability that's for sure, the ability to dodge CB/Chalice through its "x" cost is invaluable, or the ability for decks like Green Stompy and Elves to be improved another step makes me happy.
Stompy can now cast GG creatures with ease using this card, and the stompy manabase fits perfectly with this card.
Elves can use this for 2 purposes: tutoring an early combo piece e.g. Heritage Druid/Sentinel/Priest to make the combo more consistent and reuse it again to fetch a Regal Force/win-condition.
I'm not sold as running this card solely to grab goyf, but a Gx-based deck can definitely use this card if those decks are only looking to play 8-12 creatures that they are concerned with so they can cut down on other redundant slots and run 4 of these with the sole purpose to fetch those 8 strong creatures out (looking at Knight/Goyf an a singleton Trygon etc).
The fact that it shuffles itself back is really strong, since your density of threats only increases over time when it gets shuffled back.
Tarmogoyf Tutor
2G
Sorcery
Search your library for a Tarmogoyf and then put it unto the battlefield. Then shuffle Tarmogoyf Tutor into your library.
I like it.
You forgot the second part of it: Kicker X: Screw target Counterbalance.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Hi, I play a Gamekeeper deck, and the printing of Green Sun's Zenith revolutionized the deck for me.
For those unfamiliar with Gamekeeper, here is how the deck functions...
Step 1 - Play discard (4 Duress, 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Cabal Therapy) to rid your opponent of their discard, their countermagic, and cards like Humility/Ensnaring Bridge/Counterbalance/Oblivion Ring (cards that stop Emrakul) and sometimes StP/Path (in those situations where you need to go the Innocent Blood route for the combo rather than the Cabal Therapy route and thus your Gamekeeper is vulnerable to StP/Path). You can also use Deed and Innocent Blood to bide your time against aggro decks.
Step 2 - Tutor up and cast a Gamekeeper using any of the following (4 Living Wish, 1 Rhystic Tutor/Worldly Tutor, 4 Green Sun's Zenith, or 3 Gamekeeper).
Step 3 - Sacrifice the Gamekeeper using Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood/Phyrexian Tower/popping a Deed for 4/using Living Wish to tutor up a Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Marauder. Keep cycling through Gamekeeper using Cabal Therapies added to the yard until you get an Emrakul into play.
Step 4 - Swing with Emrakul for the win.
Now with Green Sun's Zenith, the deck devotes a total of 9 cards to the combo making it more consistent than it's ever been, and the rest of the deck plays very controllish cards that also happen to synergize with the combo. Thus for all intents and purposes, this deck basically plays out like Train Wreck until it surprises your opponent and lays down an Emrakul, often on turn 3, sometimes on turn 2, and sometimes on turn 4, and the game is effectively over the turn immediately after. The combination of all discard, the wishboard and the Deeds do a great job of brutalizing just about any deck. Other than the occasional storm combo deck, I honestly haven't run into any generally unfavorable matchups. Even storm combo is often winnable if you drew a sufficient amount of your discard (you play 11 discard spells and can usually manage a win if you draw 1-2 of them early on). Other than that, the deck wins far more often than not, against a variety of decks.
Current Decklist...
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Gamekeeper
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Living Wish
1 Rhystic Tutor
(or Worldly Tutor)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Crystal Vein
I want this deck to be optimal and as good as it can possibly be. To this end, I have 7 Specific Questions for you guys that will help me optimize it...
Question 1. Green Sun's Zenith vs. Eldamari's Call Before Green Sun's Zenith, I used to play Eldamari's Call in it's place. The Eldamari's Call route didn't combo nearly as well with Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, or Crystal Vein. As a result, this used to be a controllish deck that was atleast one full turn slower and played slower disruptive cards like Vindicates, Maelstrom Pulses, Hymn to Tourachs and Eldamari's Calls. Since Green Sun's Zenith got spoiled, I cut white, added cards like Ancient Tomb, Crystal Vein and Dark Ritual, added Duress, and made the deck a lot faster and more explosive. Do you think this was a good call, or do you think I would be better off going the old route, playing Eldamari's Call instead of Green Sun's Zenith and Vindicates instead of Dark Ritual?
Question 2. Rhystic Tutor vs. Worldly Tutor vs. Skeletal Scrying vs. Phyrexian Arena vs. Something Else. I don't feel comfortable unless I have 12-13 ways to get my hands on a Gamekeeper. The first 11 are set in stone (4 Living Wish, 4 Green Sun's Zenith, or 3 Gamekeeper). It's the 12th card I'm confused about. So far, Rhystic Tutor seems to be the best option. It is usually used to tutor up Gamekeeper, so Worldly Tutor would work as well, however, unlike Worldly Tutor, it can used to tutor a Deed or a Cabal Therapy or some other random card in a pinch, plus it's not card disadvantage. Other cards I'm considering are random card draw like Phyrexian Arena or Skeletal Scrying.
Question 3. Should I cut a Duress to add yet another tutor/card draw spell of some sort? As I just mentioned, I want to have 12-13 ways to get my hands on a Gamekeeper. I am all about consistency and dislike mulliganing unless I'm land screwed. Do you think 12 ways to get Gamekeeper is enough (the current configuration), or should cut a Duress to make room for a 13th tutor/card draw.
Question 4. Pernicious Deed vs. Maelstrom Pulse Both cards can be used to take out threats, opposing creatures, or blow up your own Gamekeeper. Deed is more explosive. However, it takes two turns and seven mana to do what Maelstrom Pulse often does in one turn and for just 3 mana (blow up your own Gamekeeper). Since the rest of the deck has gotten faster, do you think I should go with the faster option here and cut some Deeds for Pulses?
Question 5. The 2nd Emrakul vs. a Progenitus vs. a Blightsteel Colossus vs. a Smallpox Should I stick with the current 2 Emrakul configuration, should I just play a single Emrakul thus freeing up a slot from the deck, or should I do a 1/1 Split with Progenitus or Blightsteel Colossus instead of the second Emrakul. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each creature? The deck also functions okay with just 1 Emrakul maindeck and nothing else. However, situations arise where you have the Emrakul in your hand and have to use Cabal Therapy to discard it, or rarely, where Emrakul is the last or second to last card in your library. But these situations are fairly uncommon and there are ways around them thanks to Cabal Therapy. Should I go back to the 1 Emrakul configuration just to make room for a bomb like Maelstrom Pulse or Smallpox maindeck?
Question 6. A 2nd Crystal Vein vs. my only Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth I added Crystal Vein to the deck when I added Green Sun's Zenith to the deck. It's been fantastic (far better than City of Traitors, I tried both), to the point where I'm considering cutting Urborg to make room for a 2nd Crystal Vein. However, Urborg saves me 4-6 points of life when I play it early, since it lets me not have to sacrifice fetchlands and lets me not have to lose two life each time I use an Ancient Tomb for just one mana rather than two. Far more importantly, the Urborg brings my colored land sources up to 17 instead of 16. Since the only way to use Dark Ritual to play Gamekeeper on turn two or to play Green Sun's on turn three is if I have atleast two colored lands in my opening hand rather than just one, going up to 17 colored land helps me have two colored lands in my opening hand more consistently.
Question 7. Any advice on my current Living Wish sideboard? Which cards specifically should I cut from/add to this sideboard? Here is what I currently play...
1 Gamekeeper - Combo piece
1 Yixlid Jailer - Shuts down Ichorid
1 Viridian Shaman - Blows up Ensnaring Bridge and other artifacts that stop Emrakul
1 Viridian Zealot - Blows up Humility/Oblivion Ring. Use to be wispmare back when I played white
1 Shriekmaw - Doubles as a tutorable removal spell, and a way to kill my own Gamekeepr
1 Fleshbag Marauder - Kills opposing Emrakuls/Progenitus while letting me sac my own Gamekeeper, but costs one more mana than Shriekmaw
1 Phyrexian Tower - Doubles as a mana sources, and a tutorable Gamekeeper sacrifice outlet. I would play more maindeck if it wasn't legendary
1 Eternal Witness - It helps to be able to get my Deed back, or to grab an Innocent Blood or something
1 Tombstalker - Being able to tutor up a 5/5 flyer for just two mana is helpful when I need a cheap to cast blocker and can't quite combo out. Capable of going the distance all on it's own
1 Bojuka Bog - Doubles as a tutorable colored mana source, and graveyard hate. I often side it in to increase my land count against decks that play heavy land destruction.
1 Wasteland - I've beaten 43 Lands with this deck many times solely because I was able to tutor this up and waste their Maze of Ith. Also stops Karakas and can be sided in against land destruction.
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - I've tutored this up against burn a few times. Being able to use my Ancient Tombs and fetchlands for mana without having to take life loss has won me quite a few games in my old controllish build of this deck.
1 Phyrexian Revoker - A tutorable Pithing Needle that also stops Lion's Eye Diamond and Jace 2.0. I could see this being useful.
2 Tsunami - Everyone plays islands, except for this one deck
Thanks in advance for your advice in regards to my questions.
This card is going to pose some interesting deckbuilding questions.
What I don't like is that it probably makes Natural Order even more prevalent, as I don't like the oops-I-win nonsense that makes Force of Will keep getting better.
My bad. Thank you for correcting me.
After thinking the card over, IMO it is the nuts. This will see play in alot of decks. It replaces/conpliments heirarchs in existing bant decks and is an auto 4 off. This will make a huge splash in legacy. Countertop appears to be getting screwed over pretty hard by the new needle on a stick and now this. Apparently wizards is taking steps to prevent countertop domination when the real fact is that aether vial decks already screws countertop pretty hard.
Wizards want you to play aggro. Not combo, not control, aggro.Countertop appears to be getting screwed over pretty hard by the new needle on a stick and now this. Apparently wizards is taking steps to prevent countertop domination when the real fact is that aether vial decks already screws countertop pretty hard.
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
Seems pretty funny since this is an insane combo card.
But I do agree with you... only it seems they don't exactly know how to achieve this beyond making Merfolk a tier 1 deck.
I'd like to see if anyone has come up with belcher or more specifically spanish inquisition list using this card.
Anyone?
?
.
Hence the banning of SotF and not Vengevine.
WoTC: PLAY AGGRO PLAY IT NOW CONTROL IS SLOW BORING COMBO MAKES NEWBS RAGE QUIT AGGRO aggro aggro aggro...........................
True true, all these insane creature related cards are driving me crazy! Anyway I started a thread to concentrate on the obvious synergy of Zenith and Natural Order:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-%28GUW-GWB%29
In the thread I summarize the power and the brokenness of the Zenith in Bant Aggro and The Rock. I'd really appreciate your views and ideas for these decks, especially on possible tutor targets. Cheers!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote