[SCD] Green Sun's Zenith

[dontbiteitholmes]

It's not so much that WOTC wants everyone to play aggro. It's just that they want everyone to play creatures.

[DragoFireheart]

It's not so much that WOTC wants everyone to play aggro. It's just that they want everyone to play creatures.

Find me an creature-less aggro deck.

[Nessaja]

Find me an creature-less aggro deck.

That's only proving his point.

[alderon666]

You could see this card as a version of Noble Hierarch that works as a late game tutor for your big guys. I know it's a hell of a stretch but it's just what it is. A good early game accell and a fine topdeck.

Looks interesting.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've been playing around with GSZ, particularly in a GW aggro-control shell with Stoneforge Mystic and just a SoFI and a Jitte (and NOgenitus, of course). I'd seriously underestimated the power of fetching a first-turn Dryad; you're basically guaranteed either Dryad or Hierarch to start the game, and Dryad can even wear the equipment. GSZ is nuts; I love it.

[ivanpei]

You could see this card as a version of Noble Hierarch that works as a late game tutor for your big guys. I know it's a hell of a stretch but it's just what it is. A good early game accell and a fine topdeck.

Looks interesting.

EXACTLY, do you realise the significance of this? Running 8 turn 1 accelerators with little added risk of bad topdecks? That is just insane. And you add the fact that it tutors into exactly what you need, either a simple tarmo, or a pridemage and even eternal witness to grab back a force of will/STP/Natural order. It is busted.

[Kuma]

Find me an creature-less aggro deck.

Burn.

[Justin]

EXACTLY, do you realise the significance of this? Running 8 turn 1 accelerators with little added risk of bad topdecks? That is just insane. And you add the fact that it tutors into exactly what you need, either a simple tarmo, or a pridemage and even eternal witness to grab back a force of will/STP/Natural order. It is busted.

I agree with this. I'd say that GSZ might prove to be the best Legacy card of this entire set. It might even become a Legacy staple, in which almost every deck that runs a fair amount of green creatures will run it.

[DragoFireheart]

Burn.

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

[Mosesthecoot]

I believe he was implying that the comment of finding a creature-less aggro deck was a 'burn'. perhaps, to be clearer, a 'sick nasty burn' .

On topic, I have preordered my Zeniths and Magnavoxs. I might be overpaying but if it turns out to be as good of a card as it seems, I wont mind. I too am happy that I don't have to worry about how many pridemages/predators to put in the main anymore because the answer is now 5.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

On topic, I have preordered my Zeniths and Magnavoxs.

Magnavox? I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about.

[Gocho]

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

Burn is a combo deck. A bad one, but a combo deck. You need 6-7 burn spells + 2-3 Mountains to win.
In the other side a combo deck needs 1-2-3 cards and some lands.

You dislike burn, ok, but this is your opinion.

Maybe we need to make a full new category when wizards print enough mill spells so they can play burn-style.
But I think that is not necessary.

[Kuma]

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

Dude, take a chill pill.

I didn't say Burn was good, but it sure as hell isn't a combo or control deck.

I believe he was implying that the comment of finding a creature-less aggro deck was a 'burn'. perhaps, to be clearer, a 'sick nasty burn' .

No, I meant the deck that uses lots of three damage instants and sorceries.

[DragoFireheart]

@Kuma: I am chill, but I believe that burn is so uninspiring and lame that it gains it's own category of deck type.

@Gocho: You could apply the same logic to any deck. Get a few Tropicals, play countertop combination, play a Goyf, turn it sideways a few times and win. We can clearly see that isn't a combo deck, but just a good synergy of cards. Burn is a good synergy of cards.

Combo decks are a very specific combination of cards. You NEED to ramp mana to up your storm count, or you NEED Show and Tell to drop Emrakul for 3 mana, or you NEED Bridge from Below to make Ichorid the deck it is.

Burn doesn't need anyone card: it just needs someone with enough intelligence to be able to pick up the cards, turn them (Mountains) sideways and play Lightning Bolt or the other variations of it to win.

[Artowis]

I like how this thread went from discussing the second beat Green tutor ever printed to debating the merits of Aggro and what WOTC wants you to be playing. Way to stay on topic.

Of course when you can sum up the card as, '4-of in almost any base green deck since it's either a mana accelerator, utility or Tarmogoyf' then there isn't too much more to say without going into specific decks.

[DragoFireheart]

Of course when you can sum up the card as, '4-of in almost any base green deck since it's either a mana accelerator, utility or Tarmogoyf' then there isn't too much more to say without going into specific decks.

Exactly. There isn't much more to say about this card:

- It get's utility creatures like Qasali Pridemage.

- It acts like Tarmogoyf 5-8.

- It can get around CMC specific spells and effects like Spell Snare or Counterbalance.

- It can mana accel ala Dryad Arbor.

It's going to have an impact on the format. How much I am unsure but I can't wait to see.

[keys]

I agree that it looks reaaaally good. But it does have disadvantages.

Notably, Spell Pierce owns it.

I'm stocking up on Perish...

[ivanpei]

Spell pierce owns Jace TMS too, but that doesn't mean Jace is bad. But I understand what you are getting at. Pure aggro decks like zoo won't be using it due to the extra mana involved when going for goyf. Zoo would just play more KOTRs and Sylvan libraries. But the Zenith will definitely be King in midrange decks due to the accel and infinite utillity.

[Angelfire]

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

Sounds like someone builds decks that get stomped by burn (:

"Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies"

I play burn (ussually sligh, but very similar): I'm not poor or a newbie (I would bet I am rated higher than you). So I must be an asshole? Sound logic there. I enjoy my games to be fast and I like to keep pressure on my opponents. I like being able to kill my opponents even when they clog up the board with permanents.

Burn (and Sligh) are viable deck types and are a helluvalot more interactive than 90% of combo decks. Burn kills creatures when it has to and goes for the dome when it thinks it can race you. Combo literally just "goldfishes" hoping you do zero interacting with it. Magic where you opponent takes a 10 minute turn and all you do is cross you rfingers hoping they fuck up or fizzle is not fun (aka most combo decks).

I would also argue Burn is some kind of Aggro/Combo hybrid.

[keys]

Spell pierce owns Jace TMS too, but that doesn't mean Jace is bad.

I think the moral is that Spell Pierce owns the format. ;)