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Thread: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

  1. #3681
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    Disagree. If you need to lay a basic into a sol-land (T1 Mountain, T2 Tomb/City) then Furnace gets you timewalked really hard. I really can't imagine Furnace being anything other than a liability; into Price of Progress as well, yikes. And that's coming from my deck - my top end is CMC 3, and I don't understand how you can manage to hit CMC 4 if you run 4 fewer basics against Wasteland. Hitting 4 mana is a big concern for Bridge builds. It's no Island, but IMO Mountain really is a champ in this deck.
    If the top end of your deck is CMC3 then you don't need to run them anyway since Great Furnace only has synergy with the tokens from Karn, Scion of Urza. So if you don't run those, don't run Great Furnace.

  2. #3682

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Playing Great Furnace isn't drastically different than running Cavern of Souls... and versions of this deck successfully play 3-4 of those. Not looking to imply that criticism of Great Furnace isn't warranted, just that certain shells are willing to accept the downsides in order to reap the benefits.
    That's a fair-ish way to look at Furnace. I've HATED Cavern because it makes Blood Moon and 1/3 the creatures a lot harder to cast; and your uncounterable Magus gets easily removed beyond your usual counterspell, anyway. But that leadup with Mountain -> Sol Land: Moon Effect is vital to have, especially on the mulligan. I've lost games based on one early Wasteland; it's more common than you'd guess. And you can't always get T1 Moon, and usually T2 on the play is pretty derned close.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  3. #3683

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jelmerz77 View Post
    If the top end of your deck is CMC3 then you don't need to run them anyway since Great Furnace only has synergy with the tokens from Karn, Scion of Urza. So if you don't run those, don't run Great Furnace.
    Umm, my argument was with Karn builds, but that's okay, you do your thing, I do mine.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  4. #3684
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    Umm, my argument was with Karn builds, but that's okay, you do your thing, I do mine.
    Was trying to get away with a short answer but ok I'll bite.
    Rarely I would keep a hand that would not have a T1 lockpiece. (turn 1 Chalice, Moon, Sun or 3ball)
    This most times require a turn 1 Sol land (minus various T1 Chalice openings)
    Last tournament I played (GP Birmingham) I played 15 round and I had my Great Furnace wasted once.
    But that was because my oponent went; Force your T1 Chalice waste your sol land followed by wasteland, wasteland for my next sol-land and Great Furnace, so yes in that situation, I guess I would have had 1 mountain on the board instead of nothing. And we all know how great this deck runs on 1 red mana.

    Buffing up the tokens to really large size creatures is really good vs for example Miracles.
    A resolved Karn, Scion of Urza deals nicely with a resolved JTMS where this deck usually has trouble dealing with.

  5. #3685

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jelmerz77 View Post
    Was trying to get away with a short answer but ok I'll bite.
    Rarely I would keep a hand that would not have a T1 lockpiece. (turn 1 Chalice, Moon, Sun or 3ball)
    This most times require a turn 1 Sol land (minus various T1 Chalice openings)
    Last tournament I played (GP Birmingham) I played 15 round and I had my Great Furnace wasted once.
    But that was because my oponent went; Force your T1 Chalice waste your sol land followed by wasteland, wasteland for my next sol-land and Great Furnace, so yes in that situation, I guess I would have had 1 mountain on the board instead of nothing. And we all know how great this deck runs on 1 red mana.

    Buffing up the tokens to really large size creatures is really good vs for example Miracles.
    A resolved Karn, Scion of Urza deals nicely with a resolved JTMS where this deck usually has trouble dealing with.
    I get the idea of Furnace for Karn tokens, but it's a 2 card combo. Do you run 4 Karn? I'm saying Furnace leaves you open to nonbasic hate, not just Wasteland. You give your opponent more options with it. I try to limit my opponent's options.

    And 1 Mountain / Chrome Mox is not that bad a position to be in. You draw any Sol Land and now you're playing cards again.

    How'd you do at Birmingham? I think the last legacy one here I did pretty well, but was on WU Stax brew. I've been on mono-R a year or two inspired by my RW stompy friend.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  6. #3686
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    I get the idea of Furnace for Karn tokens, but it's a 2 card combo. Do you run 4 Karn? I'm saying Furnace leaves you open to nonbasic hate, not just Wasteland. You give your opponent more options with it. I try to limit my opponent's options.

    And 1 Mountain / Chrome Mox is not that bad a position to be in. You draw any Sol Land and now you're playing cards again.

    How'd you do at Birmingham? I think the last legacy one here I did pretty well, but was on WU Stax brew. I've been on mono-R a year or two inspired by my RW stompy friend.
    I was running a very "alternative" list (No creatures, 8 Planeswalkers, 4 Sun and a Wishboard)
    I should have run 4 Karn, however I played 3 and 1 Jaya Ballard (Which should have been the 4th Karn, Jaya was a cute idea nothing more)
    Went 6-2 day 1 (loss R1 vs D&T and R4 vs Dredge, I played no GY Hate in the SB, because we (me and Jandax) decided to give up on the GY MU in favour of the Burn MU, we played 4 Leyline of Sanctity instead)
    Day 2 was 2-5 and mainly just opposite of day 1, Bad MU's like BG Reanimator. Even had a game where my deck crapped out on me by topdecking 3 Chandra's in a row (had the 4th in hand) while stuck on mana after a mull to 5. (Happens variance)

    I rarely see other hate then Wasteland, and yes Great Furnace does make you more vulnerable, but for now I see more upside then downside.

  7. #3687

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jelmerz77 View Post
    I was running a very "alternative" list (No creatures, 8 Planeswalkers, 4 Sun and a Wishboard)
    I should have run 4 Karn, however I played 3 and 1 Jaya Ballard (Which should have been the 4th Karn, Jaya was a cute idea nothing more)
    Went 6-2 day 1 (loss R1 vs D&T and R4 vs Dredge, I played no GY Hate in the SB, because we (me and Jandax) decided to give up on the GY MU in favour of the Burn MU, we played 4 Leyline of Sanctity instead)
    Day 2 was 2-5 and mainly just opposite of day 1, Bad MU's like BG Reanimator. Even had a game where my deck crapped out on me by topdecking 3 Chandra's in a row (had the 4th in hand) while stuck on mana after a mull to 5. (Happens variance)

    I rarely see other hate then Wasteland, and yes Great Furnace does make you more vulnerable, but for now I see more upside then downside.
    Congrats on the Day II, not everyone has done that. Probably frustrating to end that way, but whatevs, you got to the second day, and got your money’s worth out of gaming. I find Day IIs to be the opposite kind of day, too; the MUs just feel so so much more different. My bud Thomas Smiley went 9-0 with his brew one GP and crashed Day II; thankfully, I did the opposite, haha. *rubs salt into Smiley’s wound*

    I was laying out my reasoning for not wanting Furnace, and what I’ve noticed in playing my version which just has different finishers (I still use the usual prison pieces). Wasteland and Price are probably the main and most relevant hate cards. Both are really devastating to us.

    I haven’t taken mono-R to a GP yet, but I like the deck a lot and think I have most of it down. I’ve done pretty well in small- mid-sized tourneys and won more than I’d expect. I’d rather represent the critical view of deckbuilding because it’s in my personality and I feel that’s where I learn the most.

    I’ll admit it’s frustrating not to get any feedback on my deck here, though. But a friend sleeved my 75 up and gave me some really good insights. I like a fresh pair of eyes.

    Last piece of advice: Never Mulligan.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  8. #3688
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    Congrats on the Day II, not everyone has done that. Probably frustrating to end that way, but whatevs, you got to the second day, and got your money’s worth out of gaming. I find Day IIs to be the opposite kind of day, too; the MUs just feel so so much more different. My bud Thomas Smiley went 9-0 with his brew one GP and crashed Day II; thankfully, I did the opposite, haha. *rubs salt into Smiley’s wound*

    I was laying out my reasoning for not wanting Furnace, and what I’ve noticed in playing my version which just has different finishers (I still use the usual prison pieces). Wasteland and Price are probably the main and most relevant hate cards. Both are really devastating to us.

    I haven’t taken mono-R to a GP yet, but I like the deck a lot and think I have most of it down. I’ve done pretty well in small- mid-sized tourneys and won more than I’d expect. I’d rather represent the critical view of deckbuilding because it’s in my personality and I feel that’s where I learn the most.

    I’ll admit it’s frustrating not to get any feedback on my deck here, though. But a friend sleeved my 75 up and gave me some really good insights. I like a fresh pair of eyes.

    Last piece of advice: Never Mulligan.
    There are now a couple of different versions of this deck with various decent / good results so if you like me have been working / toying around with a heavy control (Moonwalker like) build. I have seen your list pass by but since my deck and I was doing something completely different it is hard for me to give good argumented advice on a deck in a (my guess North American) meta that I am not familiar with. That is why I would pass on giving advice. Also you come over as a person with a strong opinion (or critical view as you said), which sometimes leads to discussions going nowhere ending in a right /wrong discussion (Had this about Burning Wish, the biggest critic just didn't "like" the card )

    I am usually commenting / discussing things / ideas that I am familiar with. I only play paper so I don't usually comment MTGO lists since that is a completly different metagame thus different (card) choices, same goes for aggressive build (creatures + equipment)

    Regarding the mulliganing, you need to keep a hand that does "something" on turn 1 or the potential to do something on turn 2. Mulliganing to 6 or 5 sometimes is usefull. You wouldn't keep a hand of Mountain, Mountain, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge either I think (assuming you run these cards)

    Burn is just a nasty MU anyway. That is why we decided on running the Leylines of Sanctity in the board. Since GP Birmingham was a doubleheader we figured if standard players wanted to play legacy Burn would be the go to deck. Price of Progress is usually not the card that kills me, most of the time that is Sulfuric Vortex. How do you handle that card?

  9. #3689

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    So here's some food for thought. I drafted up a very aggressive version of this deck. Piroko139 got a 5-0 tonight with this (subbing Leyline for Faerie) and I got a 4-1 that was very nearly a 5-0.

    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    2 Scab-Clan Beserker
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Blood Moon
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Snow-Covered Mountain
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza
    3 Captain Lannery Storm
    4 Goblin Rabblemaster
    4 Great Furnace

    1 Scab-Clan Berserker
    2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Dead/Gone
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    2 Blinding Souleater
    4 Faerie Macabre

  10. #3690

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    So here's some food for thought. I drafted up a very aggressive version of this deck. Piroko139 got a 5-0 tonight with this (subbing Leyline for Faerie) and I got a 4-1 that was very nearly a 5-0.

    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    2 Scab-Clan Beserker
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Blood Moon
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Snow-Covered Mountain
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza
    3 Captain Lannery Storm
    4 Goblin Rabblemaster
    4 Great Furnace

    1 Scab-Clan Berserker
    2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Dead/Gone
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    2 Blinding Souleater
    4 Faerie Macabre
    I just finished watching the replay of your VoD with this deck, and I see you going down the path that people (myself included) go down. You see wins from the lock pieces, so you try to instead support the lock pieces by being aggressive and not give time for the locks to break. But the overall power of the deck goes way down, as does the utility of your non-lock pieces. I've played every aggressive 3 drop under the sun, from Garrison to Sin Prodder, to Pia Nalaar. The thing that stuck is that while those cards make winning really quick and easy, they always lowered my overall win percentage.

    The problem with this is that you normally win games where you land a lock piece anyways, and in the more traditional builds, end up getting an overwhelming board or a secondary lock piece before the first one fails.

    And while you did go 4-1, to me the extra aggressive cards didn't seem that impressive. Your wins came from lock pieces and are being misattributed (in my eyes) to the extra couple creatures.

  11. #3691

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Thanks for the feedback! You might be right, and I'll watch for that the next time I give this decklist a spin. I felt the absence of Fiery Confluence in the mirror and Bridge vs the pair of Tarmogoyfs.

  12. #3692
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    I did not get to see your 4-1 run, but it might be worth playing Abrade over Magma Jet. The downside is that it cannot dome the opponent, but the upside is the ability to destroy any non-land out an opponent can use to break a Moon lock.

  13. #3693
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    So I'll definitely be playing this at an upcoming Duals tournament down south. There was quite a bit of Delver, Depths, and Reanimator last time. I'm debating between a stock list (no Furnaces, 2 Trinisphere, 0-1 Karn) and one of the Karn heavy builds. I'm leaning towards the latter, as the main strategy seems good enough against that field. Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  14. #3694

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    What is the Karn version like in a mirror match (against the karn version and old version)?

  15. #3695
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by bakofried View Post
    So I'll definitely be playing this at an upcoming Duals tournament down south. There was quite a bit of Delver, Depths, and Reanimator last time. I'm debating between a stock list (no Furnaces, 2 Trinisphere, 0-1 Karn) and one of the Karn heavy builds. I'm leaning towards the latter, as the main strategy seems good enough against that field. Thoughts?
    If you expect the Mirror cut the Furnaces! I am off the Furnaces due to popularity of this deck. Fiery Confluence turned into Stone Rain is not funny!

  16. #3696
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    So I'm planning on running ZTurgeon's Karn list from a few pages back, with a slightly revised sideboard (as I'm expecting a fair amount of BR Reanimator). Currently, my sideboard stands at:

    4 Scab-Clan Berserker - May swap #'s with Faerie Macabre.
    3 Faerie Macabre - See above. I want GY hate I can draw into, as mulling to Leyline is a bear. I don't know if I need the full set though, given how disruptive the maindeck is.
    2 Volcanic Fallout - I like Kozilek's Return and may run that instead, but the fact that this can't be countered gives it an edge in my mind. I don't have enough experience with the deck to know if RR is terribly difficult to get to in relevant match-ups though.
    2 Sulfur Elemental - There used to be a fair amount of Death and Taxes at this venue, but I've been told that the number of D&T pilots has dropped off over the last year. However, duals are on the line, so I expect people to dust their Thalias off and get back in the game. As such, I think I want 2 of these.
    2 Abrade - Super flexible removal.
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass - Same.

    I do have a few questions, though:
    1.) Does Spyglass come in against BR Reanimator to name Gris? Seems relevant, but might be underpowered. Currently, I'm set to board out 4 Blood Moon, 3 Fiery Confluence, and 2 Chandra for 4 Scab-Clan, 3 Faerie, 2 Spyglass. Is that incorrect?
    2.) When should some number of Moon effects stick around? Obviously against most of the field, but do I keep in some number of Blood Moons in against Death and Taxes and Burn? Port and Waste and really screw up my mana in the former, and Tomb damage is quite real without Moon to mitigate it. Thoughts?

    I'm sure I'll ask other questions before too long, but these were on my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  17. #3697

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by bakofried View Post
    4 Scab-Clan Berserker - May swap #'s with Faerie Macabre.
    3 Faerie Macabre - See above. I want GY hate I can draw into, as mulling to Leyline is a bear. I don't know if I need the full set though, given how disruptive the maindeck is.
    2 Volcanic Fallout - I like Kozilek's Return and may run that instead, but the fact that this can't be countered gives it an edge in my mind. I don't have enough experience with the deck to know if RR is terribly difficult to get to in relevant match-ups though.
    2 Sulfur Elemental - There used to be a fair amount of Death and Taxes at this venue, but I've been told that the number of D&T pilots has dropped off over the last year. However, duals are on the line, so I expect people to dust their Thalias off and get back in the game. As such, I think I want 2 of these.
    2 Abrade - Super flexible removal.
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass - Same.
    My matchups against BR reanimator are approx 90% win rate to me.

    I usually keep blood moons in (makes them waste their lotus petals), side in grafdiggers cage, surgical extraction and recently pyroblasts (all because of tidespout tyrant).

    The cards may be a nonbo with chalice, but it's all about the order you play them and we can afford to have approx 3 cards in hand when behind bridge.

  18. #3698
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Went 4-2, beating Grixis Delver twice, Lands twice, and losing to ANT and Maverick, both of which went to 3 games and had tight finishes. Ended up getting 11th when prizes went down to 10th. :(

    I'm tempted to go in one of two directions: either Blood Sun and more lock pieces, or Lannery Storm and more aggressive plays. Still on the fence.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  19. #3699

    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by bakofried View Post
    Went 4-2, beating Grixis Delver twice, Lands twice, and losing to ANT and Maverick, both of which went to 3 games and had tight finishes. Ended up getting 11th when prizes went down to 10th. :(

    I'm tempted to go in one of two directions: either Blood Sun and more lock pieces, or Lannery Storm and more aggressive plays. Still on the fence.
    I really like Zack's list. I cut the P&K for a third Trinisphere, but otherwise haven't made any changes. The Lannery Storm list showed initial promise, but (last time I talked to him) Piroko129 did a few more leagues with it and found follow up results were lackluster.

  20. #3700
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    Re: [Deck] Dragon Stompy

    I played 2 PnK, can't remember what I cut to get there. Glad I did, though: the card is quite good.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

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