[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[korstructure]

Discard normally isn't too bad. Obviously it will pick apart some hands, but you dump your cards so quickly that they have 2-3 turns to make you discard anything, and even then, you can normally peice together some type of lock or overwhelming board presence.

As for a flowchart of turn 1s, in the dark my options are as follows.

Moon with Chalice on 0
Magus with Chalice on 1
Moon
Magus
Chalice on 1
Trinisphere
Rabble

With all of the above, if you can also play Chandra, you should obviously do so. It only takes 5 cards to Chandra on turn 1 + chalice, so it happens more often than you would think.

Thank you, Zac. Awesome answers! I think I may be a Zacolyte now (?)

One matchup I'm a little unsure of for boarding is Miracles. What does that look like for you? And what's your overall strategy for the matchup? I know that their strategy is specifically to just counter our threats and not even care about our lock pieces until it's convenient.

[pinkfrosting]

Damping Sphere: I think that our Elves and Storm matchups are already quite good. What we really need is some SNS and DNT hate. Being marginally good against Delver decks or other cantrip decks seems only... OK. I could be wrong about that last point.

Karn: What a sweet card. Unfortunately, I think Chandra, Pyromaster might be better. For the same CMC as Chandra, Torch, we only get some situational card advantage. The "win con" mode is a nonbo with Ensnaring Bridge, unfortunately. Though it might be OK if we need a 3/3 or 4/4 blocker?

Here is a more significant shift for this deck though...

Planeswalker Targeting Rule: This change makes it so that neither Fiery Confluence NOR Rolling Thunder can kill a planeswalker. Resolved Jaces, Lilianas, and opposing Chandras are now much harder to kill - we have to attack them or Spyglass them. I've never really tracked how often I do this, but it seems bad for us.

In light of this change, one potential card for us is a bonfire-type card:
Jaya's Immolating Inferno
XRR
Legendary Sorcery
(You may cast a legendary sorcery only if you control a legendary creature or planeswalker.)
Jaya's Immolating Inferno deals X damage to each of up to three targets.

This would require us to resolve and maintain a Chandra in play, and that might make this card strictly "win more" as a result.

Thoughts on how significant this change is for us?

I mostly agree on Karn, although making blockers can actually be valuable I'm not sure if he's any better than the swath of 4cmc CA engines we already have access to.

Damping sphere probably isn't good enough against tempo, but I like having another 2cmc option against combo. Deploying something underneath duress/thoughtseize/therapy/unmask is always good.

That is significant. Jace in particular is a very hard card to beat already. I'm not sure that card is playable though. If chandra is resolving against pile/miracles we're already in a good spot vs. a Jace. It definitely seems too conditional

[Blastoderm]

Two red stompy decks in top 4 of GP madrid! Ensnaring bridge builds!

Unrelated question: is everyone playing 3 chrome mox or 4?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I haven't seen any lists running only 3.

Here're the GP lists:


PER NYSTRÖM'S RED PRISON

Planeswalker (5)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Creature (13)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Sorcery (4)
4 Fiery Confluence

Artifact (14)
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void

Enchantment (4)
4 Blood Moon

Land (20)
12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


Sideboard (15)
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Sudden Shock
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Volcanic Fallout



ALESSANDRO LIPPI'S RED PRISON

Planeswalker (4)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

Creature (14)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Hazoret the Fervent

Sorcery (4)
4 Fiery Confluence

Artifact (15)
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chrome Mox

Enchantment (4)
4 Blood Moon

Land (19)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain


Sideboard (15)
2 Abrade
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Volcanic Fallout

[Curby]

What we really need is some SNS and DNT hate.

Grafdigger's Cage would be great in both of these, except for the fact that it's CMC1. Is there a similar effect at CMC2+?

Also, it seems like Burning Wish has totally fallen out of favor now?

[korstructure]

Wait, how would Grafdigger's Cage be good against DNT?

Against Show and Tell, I did find some old tech: Monkey Cage. I asked earlier in the thread about SNT and folks were saying it's not that bad of a matchup(?) - this hasn't been my experience. At the time, the only suggested tech was something like Pyroblast. Monkey Cage is both castable and Show-able. I know it's pretty narrow, but could it be OK in other matchups? Not sure which yet...



Thoughts on this?

Converted Mana Cost: 5
Types: Artifact
Card Text: When a creature enters the battlefield, sacrifice Monkey Cage and create X 2/2 green Monkey creature tokens, where X is that creature's converted mana cost.

Grafdigger's Cage would be great in both of these, except for the fact that it's CMC1. Is there a similar effect at CMC2+?

Also, it seems like Burning Wish has totally fallen out of favor now?

[Curby]

Wait, how would Grafdigger's Cage be good against DNT?

Sorry, I was thinking Containment Priest against SnT and DnT. Grafdigger's Cage isn't right at all.

Monkey Cage might be Showable, but by the time it's able to trigger, it can't trigger off the Emrakul etc. that came into play with it.

EDIT: Cursed Totem should do ok against both elves and D&T, and only hits our Pia/Kiran and Hazoret.

[rlesko]

Monkey Cage might be Showable, but by the time it's able to trigger, it can't trigger off the Emrakul etc. that came into play with it.

I'm like 99.9% sure this is incorrect. They enter simultaneously, so they would "see" each other, and cage would trigger.

[korstructure]

I'm like 99.9% sure this is incorrect. They enter simultaneously, so they would "see" each other, and cage would trigger.

Lesko is correct - Monkey Cage DOES work - it's the same as how Confusion in the Ranks triggers and exchanges control with an Omniscience when both are Shown in.

My question is... is this good enough to use for SB slots? Currently we might use narrow cards like Leylines, Faerie Macabres, or Sulfur Elementals - they aren't for the same matchups but I'm illustrating that we're willing to have quite narrow cards in our board. SNT is a particularly challenging and plentiful matchup.

Are there other matchups where Monkey Cage is reasonable? Is this too slow for Reanimator and Turbodepths/Lands? (Granted, we have 8 moon effects for the latter)

As for Cursed Totem - that's interesting. Is it actually good against DNT though? You're right that it's good against elves, though that is already an easy matchup for us. In fact, DNT has, at times, used Cursed Totem out of the board to shore up their Elves matchup.

[filln]

Is this too slow for Reanimator and Turbodepths/Lands? (Granted, we have 8 moon effects for the latter)

Although I am a huge fan of Monkey Cage and am supportive of its increased usage, this probably won't do what you want against Turbo Depths and Lands.

[korstructure]

Although I am a huge fan of Monkey Cage and am supportive of its increased usage, this probably won't do what you want against Turbo Depths and Lands.

Haha, thank you! Saved me from a horror moment.

Is this simply too slow to be helpful against Reanimator?

[jandax]

Grafdigger's Cage would be great in both of these, except for the fact that it's CMC1. Is there a similar effect at CMC2+?

Also, it seems like Burning Wish has totally fallen out of favor now?

The aggro build has always been more popular than the wish build. Player preference. I'm jelly of the american Meta, seems like any practiced prison pilot could cash a tournament. All those Delver and elves and lands decks. Nom.



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[Captain Hammer]

The change in the Planeswalkers targeting rules makes Fiery Confluence a much weaker card. One of the reasons Confluence was so strong was that it destroyed Planeswalkers.

With this neutering, I think it makes sense to relegate a single Confluence to the board and replace its slot in the main deck with Burning Wish.

Wish let’s you tutor up Banefire vs Planeswalkers, Shattering Spree and Fiery Confluence vs artifacts and Fiery Confluence or Pyroclasm/Anger of the Gods against creatures.

But the real strength of Wish comes from its ability to Boil all islands and other such massive game winning effects.

[zebhillard]

Running Boiling Seas just so you can Wish for it sounds fairly terrible to me, but I suppose it's an option.

The change in the Planeswalkers targeting rules makes Fiery Confluence a much weaker card. One of the reasons Confluence was so strong was that it destroyed Planeswalkers.

With this neutering, I think it makes sense to relegate a single Confluence to the board and replace its slot in the main deck with Burning Wish.

Wish let’s you tutor up Banefire vs Planeswalkers, Shattering Spree and Fiery Confluence vs artifacts and Fiery Confluence or Pyroclasm/Anger of the Gods against creatures.

But the real strength of Wish comes from its ability to Boil all islands and other such massive game winning effects.

[jandax]

To be fair he did state "and other such game winning effects," so Boiling Seas isn't the only reason to run BW.

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[Jelmerz77]

Running Boiling Seas just so you can Wish for it sounds fairly terrible to me, but I suppose it's an option.

At the moment the slots I dedicate to the Wishboard are these:

1 Banefire
1 Boiling Seas
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Aftershock
1 Stone Rain

[korstructure]

At the moment the slots I dedicate to the Wishboard are these:

1 Banefire
1 Boiling Seas
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Aftershock
1 Stone Rain

So I've played Burning Moon Stompy in the past and really disliked it. Sometimes you have to Chalice on 2 and sometimes it's hard to resolve two spells over the course of two turns (dodging discard and your opponent getting an extra turn to find countermagic).

HOWEVER, last night I played a four round event (going 2-2) with ZTurgeon's list and noticed that the future Planeswalker Redirection rule change will be challenging for us. I never realized how often I Confluenced to kill a planeswalker. Or how problematic planeswalkers are in general. As such, it's time to find a solution.

Two questions:

1. Is this as big of an issue as I think? Or am I overstating the rule change's effect?
2. Is switching to Burning Moon Stompy the best choice or are there other avenues?

[frogger42]

So I've played Burning Moon Stompy in the past and really disliked it. Sometimes you have to Chalice on 2 and sometimes it's hard to resolve two spells over the course of two turns (dodging discard and your opponent getting an extra turn to find countermagic).

HOWEVER, last night I played a four round event (going 2-2) with ZTurgeon's list and noticed that the future Planeswalker Redirection rule change will be challenging for us. I never realized how often I Confluenced to kill a planeswalker. Or how problematic planeswalkers are in general. As such, it's time to find a solution.

Two questions:

1. Is this as big of an issue as I think? Or am I overstating the rule change's effect?
2. Is switching to Burning Moon Stompy the best choice or are there other avenues?

I've always found difficulties in Stax/Stompy strategies facing off against PW'ers. You don't run any filtering to get around Jace's Fateseal, and you only drop 1 creature at a time vs Liliana's sac ability.

But Jace hates Goblin Rabblemaster.

Creatures have always been an effective route against PW'ers. Especially doodes that generate more doodes.

[Captain Hammer]

I've always found difficulties in Stax/Stompy strategies facing off against PW'ers. You don't run any filtering to get around Jace's Fateseal, and you only drop 1 creature at a time vs Liliana's sac ability.

But Jace hates Goblin Rabblemaster.

Creatures have always been an effective route against PW'ers. Especially doodes that generate more doodes.

Either way, Fiery Confludence just doesn’t cut it anymore to maindeck 4 if it’s not able to kill Planeswalkers. It’s an now an overpriced pyroclasm and an overpriced shattering spree, which is useful against some decks but will be a dead draw against others.

The decision is whether to play 4 more creatures in its place, or whether to swap it with Burning Wish so as to retain the same versatility.


PS: I usually find it’s best to play both Chalices at 1 where chalice matters a lot before going to a chalice at 2. That’s because any deck that is hurt by chalice at 1 plays abrupt decay, bounce or artifact destruction. So it’s not as big a deal that Burning Wish and Sorcerors Spyglass cost two mana.

[AEMarling]

Not only will Fiery Confluence be weakened but so will Chandra, Torch of Defiance. With reduced ability to kill Planeswalkers, the deck will become weaker by at least a few percentage points. If we were a top tier deck this wouldn't be an issue, but it feels like kicking a dog while it's down. I expressed my concern to Wizards and I hope you will too, politely.

I find it odd that people aren't talking about Blood Sun. I've been enjoying it more than Magus of the Moon. Hope you'll try it. It makes cards like Hazoret and Ensnaring Bridge slightly less good and puts pressure to play fewer 2RR spells in the deck, as it's often easier to get 4R.

The reasons I like Blood Sun: I feel it improves the 4c Control matchup by keeping them off Kologhan's Command mana. With Trinisphere in play it's often a soft lock. And I feel it improves matchups that don't care about Blood Moon, such as Burn.