[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Curby]

So Chalice for stopping P Fire itself and Moon effects and postboard yardhate for stopping recursion aren't enough? Trinisphere should crimp FoW and even tax P Fire and their other spells.

[ZTurgeon]

My problem with Quicksmith is that it's super-dependent on your having Chalice @ 1 on the field. Or not to run into a P Fire deck. And if you don't, you get tempo-ed out hard. REALLY HARD - to the point that you get Time Walked and likely lose. If Rebel made the artifact permanently shock, it'd be great, but it doesn't. Only as long as Rebel is around.

If you're on the Bridge plan, it's not 5 dmg / turn.

I lost to Bridge with P Fire at my weekly. RW Painter got me - he had Welder, Painter, and Chandra (with Bridge out, Grindstone in the GY). He cast Daretti 1, and then beat me in the next few turns. Go go Bridge!

Playing with P Fire in my other deck, I smash Stompy strategies. Esp everything with 2 toughness. It's the single card that wins me most games. Unless you run all Dragons, which are super slow, all your threats will die to the Fire. The toughest deck in my meta is a FoW + P Fire deck. It runs other major card advantage engines, but it's the Fire I can't get past. FoW my Moon, then burn every creature out. I have no other threats he needs to Force. Which is why I'm asking what other options I have to beat P Fire. Hazoret is the only one I can think of - well, there's one other awful card - but Hazoret is super hard to get online when you only cast 1 spell a turn.

Truthfully man, I don't get it. I can not tell you the last time I lost to a punishing fire deck. They are all really easy for stompy lists. You have moon and chalice for 2, which is more than any other creature deck in legacy. Additionally, you could have threats like chandra and Haz that just ignore it. I do not get your obsession with a card that is in like 3% of decks.

[zangoasyl]

Which is why I'm asking what other options I have to beat P Fire.

You are playing a deck which has the main game plan of feasting on your meta. If punishing fire is a problem in your meta adapt to it. Play cards like Hanweir Garrison, Chandra, maybe even flamespeaker (beware, rr is harsh) to adapt to this threat...

[pinkfrosting]

My problem with Quicksmith is that it's super-dependent on your having Chalice @ 1 on the field. Or not to run into a P Fire deck. And if you don't, you get tempo-ed out hard. REALLY HARD - to the point that you get Time Walked and likely lose. If Rebel made the artifact permanently shock, it'd be great, but it doesn't. Only as long as Rebel is around.

If you're on the Bridge plan, it's not 5 dmg / turn.

I lost to Bridge with P Fire at my weekly. RW Painter got me - he had Welder, Painter, and Chandra (with Bridge out, Grindstone in the GY). He cast Daretti 1, and then beat me in the next few turns. Go go Bridge!

Playing with P Fire in my other deck, I smash Stompy strategies. Esp everything with 2 toughness. It's the single card that wins me most games. Unless you run all Dragons, which are super slow, all your threats will die to the Fire. The toughest deck in my meta is a FoW + P Fire deck. It runs other major card advantage engines, but it's the Fire I can't get past. FoW my Moon, then burn every creature out. I have no other threats he needs to Force. Which is why I'm asking what other options I have to beat P Fire. Hazoret is the only one I can think of - well, there's one other awful card - but Hazoret is super hard to get online when you only cast 1 spell a turn.

There's a reason he's a one-of in most lists. You're right, he's best in a board state where you've already got a few lock pieces and an artifact down. Running one means he's less likely to be in the opener and ideally gets drawn later to snipe threats and be protected by chalice/moon.

Against ANT I don't even play bridge so he remains a 5 damage clock. Against reanimator or show I can usually manage to control my hand size so that he can get a few swings in.

When the bridge belongs to your opponent, who can manage their hand size, and your suite of threats isn't designed to work through bridge, yeah you will lose to it. Also 4x confluence is insane against painter, you can just blow up their entire board.

So you've criticized us for making assumptions about card value based on the online meta or foreign tournament results, but it's clear to me now that you're mostly upset about your hyper-local meta with jank blue p-fire strategies and are making blanket statements about card values based on the 20~ people you play at your weekly.

I am aware of a few variations on the blue fire deck. In the 500 or so matches I've played on MTGO since the top ban I've probably seen it 3 times. It is a bad matchup, the builds I've seen also run a healthy number of basics and one build (piloted by ItIsUnfair) ran 2 maindeck EE. I usually make resolving chalice on 2 my main priority. Between red spells, basics, p-fire, and jace I'd just chalk it up to a bad matchup we can't do much about. Fortunately outside of wherever you are though it's not a big thing in the meta right now and I wouldn't alter my deck to beat it. Between the various UR strategies and unexpected miracles I've been running Boil in the side with great success. I absolutely blew out the guy on this list last time with it, although I have no idea how many islands your opponent is running in his version.

[Karhumies]

I've never seen a P Fire deck running FoW. This is the first I hear that such a niche deck exists.

Normally,
Grove of the Burnwillows -> Blood Moon
Punishing Fire & Life from the Loam -> Chalice @ 2
Wasteland recursion -> Blood Moon
FoW -> red blasts (normally poor synergy with Chalice 1 but it seems like in this MU you want Chalice on 2), potentially 1of Cavern of Souls for uncounterable creatures.

If the list you mentioned is running also basics + Abrupt Decay (redirect effects or Spellskite are super narrow options) or Pernicious Deed (Revoker would be our go-to answer since we don't want to run Needle due to Chalice, but P Fire makes this a bad plan), I would just consider it super bad MU not worth dedicated SB slots because it's a niche deck, 1-2 dedicated cards will not be enough and it's not worth the sb slots to dedicate more to obscure MUs. Plan: dodge that guy in the round pairings.

[pinkfrosting]

I've never seen a P Fire deck running FoW. This is the first I hear that such a niche deck exists.

Had to do some digging but I found the exact list by ItIsUnfair I played against about a month or two ago.

Not a bad idea, P-fire is a great card, but it does feel like the deck is trying to jam way too many things into one list. To truly judge it's power level I'd have to test it myself in a variety of matchups. It's pretty great against red stompy though.

But yeah, it's very niche, not something I'd worry about facing at any large event, unless it gains some traction in the next few months. Even the deck designer just switched back to miracles when it became apparent that it was a tiered deck still.

[Karhumies]

Had to do some digging but I found the exact list by ItIsUnfair I played against about a month or two ago.

Not a bad idea, P-fire is a great card, but it does feel like the deck is trying to jam way too many things into one list. To truly judge it's power level I'd have to test it myself in a variety of matchups. It's pretty great against red stompy though.

But yeah, it's very niche, not something I'd worry about facing at any large event, unless it gains some traction in the next few months. Even the deck designer just switched back to miracles when it became apparent that it was a tiered deck still.

Possibly the only deck in Legacy which runs 2x MD Dack Fayden(!) to steal our Chalice of the Void and 1x MD Engineered Explosives with access to 3 colors to blow up practically our whole board.

Plan your deck against Stoneforge Mystic blade control decks instead of this list. As you said, even the creator of the deck decided to "go mainstream".

[ZTurgeon]

Possibly the only deck in Legacy which runs 2x MD Dack Fayden(!) to steal our Chalice of the Void and 1x MD Engineered Explosives with access to 3 colors to blow up practically our whole board.

Plan your deck against Stoneforge Mystic blade control decks instead of this list. As you said, even the creator of the deck decided to "go mainstream".

Dack Stealing chalice doesn't really do much. If anything, its better on their side of the board because they can't trigger check you.

[frogger42]

Dack Stealing chalice doesn't really do much. If anything, its better on their side of the board because they can't trigger check you.

This is true. He's better off stealing a Mox (or in my case, SoFI, ow).

I'm not worried about that one deck. I don't mind writing off that MU. I'm worried about the unlimited removal strategy, though - Lands, Jund (super rare, yes), Punishing Maverick (which I think will get a significant uptick with the Green Crucible of Worlds), everything with Grove in it. I brought out that FoW + P Fire deck because I only have Blood Moon against him - and he's got 4x FoW, possibly 2 Counterspells. I can't overload his Forces with any other threats he needs to stop. Force Blood Moon, everything else he can deal with. Several decks are in a similar position - Lands post-SB, and the others I mentioned are even worse. Stop Moon, and everything else gets cleaned up with 1 P Fire.

I faced P Fire 2 out of 7 matches last weekend. I lost both, shockingly.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What's the graveyard hate in your sideboard looking like?

P Fire is susceptible to grave-hate and if a copy makes winning impossible, it is worth boarding in.

[frogger42]

What's the graveyard hate in your sideboard looking like?

P Fire is susceptible to grave-hate and if a copy makes winning impossible, it is worth boarding in.

It was Leyline of the Void. I figure Reanimator, either version, was going to be a blow-out, and that's the best way for me to fight it.

I thought about it, and if I switch to Faerie Macabre - which is obv weaker vs Reanimator and Dredge - I have a card to side in vs P Fire. It's terrible for me to bring in Leyline and try to mull into it just for Fire. But I can topdeck a Faerie vs that card, which should be fine (I hope). And I'm going to switch out the Sulfur Elementals for 3x Sword of Light and Shadow - still for DnT, but also to recur the Faeries, too. I think that's my gameplan right now.

On that note, I do not have 3x Sword of Light and Shadow, hahaha... nuts.

[Karhumies]

I thought about it, and if I switch to Faerie Macabre - which is obv weaker vs Reanimator

As a long term Reanimator pilot, I wouldn't say obviously weaker.

Against Brw animator:
The big downside of Macabre is that it can be spot discarded from your hand, unlike Leyline.

However, if they decide to go off t1 on the play without spot discard (no extra card for unmask, no mana for seize, did not draw either) out of fear of your t1 chalice on 1, you can respond to their first reanimation spell with Macabre, even through a Chancellor trigger on the draw, which results in them spending a lot of resources for nothing, possibly putting them into topdeck mode with a blank wear // tear in hand. The bad part of the deal is, those "blank" wear/tears are going to be hitting your lock pieces instead.

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you begin the game with Leyline and they have no response to it, they can still t1 spot discard a creature from you, reanimate that and start attacking with it. Rabblemaster, Dragons and Sin Prodder are decent clocks. So even when the leyline is active, the opponent can have "outs" depending on what you have left in.

[frogger42]

As a long term Reanimator pilot, I wouldn't say obviously weaker.

Against Brw animator:
The big downside of Macabre is that it can be spot discarded from your hand, unlike Leyline.

This is mainly what I was considering, why I figured Faerie was weaker than Leyline. But I haven't seen a W splash strangely, which totally makes sense for all the hate.

However, if they decide to go off t1 on the play without spot discard (no extra card for unmask, no mana for seize, did not draw either) out of fear of your t1 chalice on 1, you can respond to their first reanimation spell with Macabre, even through a Chancellor trigger on the draw, which results in them spending a lot of resources for nothing, possibly putting them into topdeck mode with a blank wear // tear in hand. The bad part of the deal is, those "blank" wear/tears are going to be hitting your lock pieces instead.

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you begin the game with Leyline and they have no response to it, they can still t1 spot discard a creature from you, reanimate that and start attacking with it. Rabblemaster, Dragons and Sin Prodder are decent clocks. So even when the leyline is active, the opponent can have "outs" depending on what you have left in.

Yeah, blowing my opponent out of the water with a single Faerie vs that it can be Thoughtseized seems like some give-and-take. If I resolve a Faerie activation, you're right, I probably do win.
I don't like counting on my opponent to misplay, but I've seen the vast majority of Reanimator players hold onto Reanimate solely for their own fatties. You're right, I probably would've lost the 3 Rabble game if the Rean player hit one of my own dead Rabbles instead of Exhuming it and his Griselbees. But Reanimate is such a weird card for them, and add to the fact that they have to calculate combat damage with cards they don't even play in their deck, that most players don't end up seeing - or taking - that option.

But I think you bring up really good points about Faerie vs Leyline, and the "pressure" I put on Reanimator by just running Chalice in the deck. In that MU, it might be 6 of one, half a dozen of the other; vs the White splash, it's likely just better, and not get 2-for-1'ed.

I just started running Dragon Stompy for 3-4 weeks, even with having owned all the cards since forever. Thanks for the insights vs Reanimator. Generally my Stompy and Stax decks tend to lose to cheating fatties into play.

[frogger42]

This is my non-Bridge build:

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
4 Zoetic Cavern

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dead // Gone
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Hazoret the Fervent

2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Fiery Confluence

SB:
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Confusion in the Ranks
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Yeah, I know, Confusion in the Ranks. It's mostly for Show and Tell strategies, obv. But it's castable, and can steal Elves' fatties, including Progenitus, which I just lose to. Having it castable, I have the potential to just bring it in vs RandomJank.dec.
And I really like Revoker vs Death and Taxes, as it's also a colorless dude to suit up through a Mom. I can name Jitte and still get there. Speaking of which, Zoetic Cavern is super hot vs DnT, too. Which is just hilarious.

FYI, I recently cut 2 Chandra, 2 Haz for the Dead // Gone. RR is sometimes hard without a Moon effect - but Fiery Confluence has won me too many games not to play (esp when it kills SoFI and Jitte). And Gone could shore up some of the unfair MUs - Marit Lage and Reanimator now - as well as random Goblins and Burn and aggro.

Have at it! Let me know what you think about the list, where I could improve, MUs I could shore up by tinkering with this list. Thanks!

[Karhumies]

I don't like counting on my opponent to misplay, but I've seen the vast majority of Reanimator players hold onto Reanimate solely for their own fatties.

Slight addition: it's not only Reanimate. It's also Animate Dead. In other words, 8/12 of their animation spells can target stuff in your yard. Exhume is a miss.

For putting your creatures into the yard, Thoughtseize and Unmask are hits. Collective Brutality is a miss. In fact, Collective Brutality has terrible modes against Monored stompy since 1) stompy does not run relevant instants or sorceries 2) stompy starts with lock pieces instead of starting with 1-2 toughness creatures. The recent trend in reanimator has been to make Brutality a 3-4 of in the MD due to MD DRS. This actually improves Monored stompy's success rate in the MU.

Also, talking about lines of play inexperienced Reanimator players might not be able to see: Reanimator vs Dredge, g1. Reanimator player can Reanimate (for 5 life) or Animate Dead an opposing Golgari Grave-Troll from the opponent's graveyard as 0/0 to die to get rid of Dredge's bridges. If you take a pilot with enough skill to see this line of play, they can also see the damage output of t1 animating your Rabblemaster.

[frogger42]

Slight addition: it's not only Reanimate. It's also Animate Dead. In other words, 8/12 of their animation spells can target stuff in your yard. Exhume is a miss.

Ah, true dat. Forgot about Animate Dead. I think they tend to run 2-3 of those usually, but I'm not super up to date on the list.

For putting your creatures into the yard, Thoughtseize and Unmask are hits. Collective Brutality is a miss. In fact, Collective Brutality has terrible modes against Monored stompy since 1) stompy does not run relevant instants or sorceries 2) stompy starts with lock pieces instead of starting with 1-2 toughness creatures. The recent trend in reanimator has been to make Brutality a 3-4 of in the MD due to MD DRS. This actually improves Monored stompy's success rate in the MU.

This is also true. Brutality usually whiffs against me. On 9 games vs BR Reanimator, he saw I ran Dead // Gone right away in G1, so he kept having to Brutalize my hand every time to clear it of that crummy split card. I only bounced one fatty with it (yeah, out of 9 games), and I ended up discarding it once, maybe twice; but he must've whiffed 3-4 more times in those games just to make sure my hand was clear.

The main thing I don't like about Dead // Gone so far is it doesn't kill SFM through a Chalice @ 1. But I guess I can bounce the Germ token and tempo the funk out of the player. It's also a nice way to kill / bounce Mom, which Confluence can't do. It's not bad, but admittedly not super powerful... IDK, I'm still *split* on playing the card here.

[frogger42]

Stream of the deck, though I sided out 7 Moons and 4 Chalice. Best kinda playing. At 1hr 30 min.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/156916767

[Koby]

Also, talking about lines of play inexperienced Reanimator players might not be able to see: Reanimator vs Dredge, g1. Reanimator player can Reanimate (for 5 life) or Animate Dead an opposing Golgari Grave-Troll from the opponent's graveyard as 0/0 to die to get rid of Dredge's bridges. If you take a pilot with enough skill to see this line of play, they can also see the damage output of t1 animating your Rabblemaster.

Unfortunately, this isn't true. The GGT dies and goes to its owners graveyard, which does trigger Bridge from Below - but only to make 2/2 zombie tokens; rather than exile itself.

[Karhumies]

Unfortunately, this isn't true. The GGT dies and goes to its owners graveyard, which does trigger Bridge from Below - but only to make 2/2 zombie tokens; rather than exile itself.

You are correct. It's not a "dies" trigger, it's "enters the graveyard" trigger. My FLGS Dredge player has had Japanese Bridges for too long and I should re-read all cards in English before posting incorrect memorizations about the cards.

[rlesko]

What match ups is blood moon bad / lack luster against? (Besides burn)