Chandra, rolling earthquake, firey confluence. Redirect player damage to Jace.Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken
What's your wish board look like? I think Boiling Seas is the best you can do; I checked Gatherer, and you can't destroy any permanents in red (Dreadbore is as close as you get). At 7 mana, you get Call the Skybreaker as your only real option to fight a resolved JtMS.
If Jace is pretty prevalent in your meta, the more Stompy version should beat him up. PW'ers are always a pain to deal with without creatures. Something like Goblin Rabblemaster is a Brick House there.
@CavalryWolfPack - I think Moggcatcher isn't too bad. I think your assessment of the deck is fairly accurate; and I think Mountain is generally better than Cavern, in most builds of Mono-R, for the reasons you noted.
I never understood why the deck wanted to run Redcap when you have Siege Gang. I also tried running a tutorable 1x Settler, and never found it gamebreaking, or sometimes not even useful. I think the biggest thing Moggcatcher has is fetching Kiki-Jiki, which my deck can't do, because RRR is essentially uncastable. I run Sharpshooter and Stingscourger in the SB; but I think the better silver bullets you can find are outside of the Goblin creature type right now.
The reason I'm not running 4x Moggcatcher is the RR in the casting cost. My deck only aims to get a single Red source, and a tonna colorless. I've tried Catcher and found it tough to cast in my manabase; that said, I don't think adding Mountains will do anything other than dilute my threat density (sidenote - which is how you beat Jace).
If you haven't tried it, it might be worth trying a casting cost R2 version of Stompy, as it just runs smoother in casting spells. Moggcatcher is powerful, but makes you ramp up your manabase more and cut down on threats. My version folds to Engineered Explosives pretty aggressively, but it's really consistent otherwise!
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
Redcap can kill Delver without an additional mana cost, which is very useful in today's meta. Redcap is also a resilient win condition with Kiki-Jiki, on top of being able to kill 4 toughness creatures in combat. Finally, you can win with Kiki-Jiki + Redcap from behind an Ensnaring Bridge and also hold mana up. Cutting Kiki hurts your build of the deck a lot. It wins games in so many ways and is almost impossible to deal with thanks to our prison pieces. He's far too powerful to not play, and I would never register a list without him. Additionally, the Settler lock seems more clunky than it really is. Blowing up a lone basic land is fine, but repeating it is beyond obnoxious. At Settler's worst, it takes out a utility land. At its best, it stops the opponent from doing anything for the rest of the game. Cavern, despite being clunky, let's our most important tools dodge counter spells. I prefer to think of Cavern as a ritual: it is a one-time power surge that puts whatever we need into play.
Put another way, your list removed most of why you want the tutors, and then tried to keep the Moggcatchers in. That's like removing all the tools from a Swiss army knife and then keeping then carrying it with you for when you need a knife: it's no longer beneficial to keep it in use.
Maybe Vexing Shusher could work in place of Cavern?
Cavern outclasses Shusher because it's a land, and it costs extra mana to make the spell uncounterable with Shusher, effectively taxing us every turn. I did the math with a hypergeometric calculator, there's 76% chance we have a Moon in the first 8 cards, assuming you play 4 Moon 4 Magus. Those odds are pretty good, and if we take it down to 7 (in theory, we know one is Cavern, so we drop the sample size to account for that), that's a 71% chance. Cavern will end up being a Mountain significantly more often than not. Yes, it can be clunky, but I think buffing out the rough edges makes the deck work.
Now, there may be a case for Vexing Shusher in the sideboard for when we really want a Moon to stick, but keep in mind that's happening on turn 2 at the earliest (which is sometimes too late for Moon) and requires having the Shusher. Thus, we would want 4 copies (at the very least 3), but that's a lot of sideboarding. I find it difficult to sideboard out more than 3-4 cards before I start cutting into the core. How did Moggcatcher perform for you? You mentioned it wasn't amazing, but I'm curious none the less.
EDIT 2: Can you imagine tutoring a Shusher out in response to a counter spell? I can't stop myself from laughing just thinking about it!
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In that deck if they let you resolve a wish banefire is pretty great.
However I've had trouble against control with every variation of this deck lately, wish or traditional. It feels like if I don't resolve a walker in the first 3 turns it's a huge uphill battle. As long as they are a decent player they will be very selective about what they counter, letting anything they have cards to deal with resolve and anything they can't they hold up a counter for. They know we run a high walker count so even behind trinisphere they will just play draw-go and hold up 3 mana to stop us from resolving a chandra. In addition new-miracles and stoneblade variants almost totally don't care about moon, and trinisphere's value quickly falls after the first few turns.
And as far as JTMS is concerned, if they can resolve one with counterspell backup for our turn and we haven't established a board, the game is essentially over.
I've toyed with several options. The spiciest is ricochet trap, basically a counterspell for R that can be cast through chalice. I've also paid 3R to redirect decays and hymns, and I've stolen the draw from ancestral. Fun card but can be very underwhelming.
I think honestly our best bet may be borrowing tech from red sneak and playing some number of defense grid in the board. Even with walkers and cloisters we can't compete with the draw and selection that blue offers, not to mention recursion with snapcaster. Our best bet is to protect the heavy hitters and resolve them early. The matches I win against this deck almost always involve trinisphere turn 2 into chandra turn 3, or just fast mana into a quick chandra force-check before they have a chance to cantrip for countermagic. Any game that goes past turn 5-6 without me successfully resolving anything feels totally unwinnable.
On an opening hand of 7 cards, I got a 34.5% chance of not having a moon in hand, which seems like a 65.5% chance of having one (about 2/3). I’m counting going on the play, since there’s a significant difference with Moon on the play vs. Moon on the draw (fetchlands).
I tried Moggcatcher - a playset over the Imperial Recruiters. In short, they did not perform. I couldn’t cast them most of the time, due to the RR, and when I had one in my opening hand, I generally lost (vs 4C Control). I still really like it, but I’m going to try 1x in the SB so I can snag it with Recruiter.
I still suspect Siege Gang is enough to deal with x/2 creatures, over a whole slot for 4 Mana Shock. If you find value in it, that’s fine, I still like my handful of SoFI/Jitte better.
Catcher is a super grinder, and the best part is def fetching out Kiki. I’m going to plan on bringing him in vs more grindy MUs (Miracles, I guess).
Also, I do strongly feel Recruiter is far better than Catcher. I think your analysis of the two is off - Catcher is summoning sick, and Recruiter snags something right away. This is hugely significant vs Sword of Fire and Ice, which even with Recruiter I tend to fetch out the Manic Vandal / Artifact Bullet right away. Every now and then I get a Magus, but usually I fetch out Rabbles with Recruiter, when SoFI isn’t a problem (so yeah, usually a Goblin).
Add to that Recruiter is only R in color requirements. I don’t want to drop 2-3 money spells to find more mountains for Moggcatcher. But don’t spend the $600 for them, god no. Make a friend who happens to have them :p
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
At 4-0 with chandrs stompy, Dutch legacy open. Theyre streaming at the time of this ppst on twitch
Edit: just lost a camera match to MuD but beat infect again to go 5 1 into the last round.
Edit edit:Got a top 8 and we split. Top 8 was 2 infect, 2 storm (JamieW89, 1 MUD, 2 Moon Walker (jelmerz77 and I) and Lands. Sweet ass meta. Went 5-1-1 drawing the last round as 4th seed with Jamie89 (on Storm). Beat Br Reanimator, Esper mentor, Eldrazi, infect twice, lost hard to MUD (anyone know more about this matchup??) and ID'd. Felt great all day, made a couple bad judgments during the day upon reflection.
11 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit guide
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fiery Confluence
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Burning Wish
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Side:
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Stone Rain
1 Pyroclasm
1 Banefire
1 Roast
1 Boiling Seas
1 Boom//Bust
Jelmerz77 took the whole thing down! He opted to play Call the Skybreaker over Pyroclasm. For the control match but there wasn't much of that around today.
Last edited by jandax; 11-12-2017 at 03:11 PM.
Nice! Congrats guys.
Picked up the Spyglasses I needed along with a card I've always wanted.
Last edited by Ace/Homebrew; 11-24-2017 at 04:59 PM.
Dat Forcefield! How much if I may ask?
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Hello Jandax,
was also at dutch legacy open: opted for a more 'monored stompy list' (more or less like mtgtop8 Andrew Son's list) instead of 'monored chandra control'; did very very bad! 4-3: had to wait for friends in the car who top16'ed.
Losing to UR delver, (very close) loss to grixis delver, loss to UW control (do U have any suggestions for this MU?) and merfolk.
Won against turbo depths, MUD and Sultai Delver.
Just referring to the MUD matchup: First game I was quicker and won.
Game 2 I was lucky to keep a fiery confluence in hand. Hid behind one and even two ensnaring bridge (after sideboarding those in) and waited for metalworker to come out with platinum emperion, steel hellkite : Fiery confluence getting rid of those 3 artifact creatures in one play and then 'letting Chandra TOD and quicksmith rebel' hit him from behind the bridge... he scooped.
Not that I am a 'specialist in Legacy of monored stompy, just letting U know what worked for me tbh ;).
Any suggestions for the MU I losed to are very welcome: certainly merfolk, UR delver and UW control if U have any??
PS liked the list of the winner a lot. almost same as 'pinkfrosting' on MTGO. Trying that one now...
Hidding behind a bridge never felt better in every MU I played yesterday, except UR delver who can quickly get 'below the bridge'...
Hello Jandax,
was also at dutch legacy open: opted for a more 'monored stompy list' (more or less like mtgtop8 Andrew Son's list) instead of 'monored chandra control'; did very very bad! 4-3: had to wait for friends in the car who top16'ed.
Losing to UR delver, (very close) loss to grixis delver, loss to UW control (do U have any suggestions for this MU?) and merfolk.
Won against turbo depths, MUD and Sultai Delver.
Just referring to the MUD matchup: First game I was quicker and won.
Game 2 I was lucky to keep a fiery confluence in hand. Hid behind one and even two ensnaring bridge (after sideboarding those in) and waited for metalworker to come out with platinum emperion, steel hellkite : Fiery confluence getting rid of those 3 artifact creatures in one play and then 'letting Chandra TOD and quicksmith rebel' hit him from behind the bridge... he scooped.
Not that I am a 'specialist in Legacy of monored stompy, just letting U know what worked for me tbh ;).
Any suggestions for the MU I losed to are very welcome: certainly merfolk, UR delver and UW control if U have any??
PS liked the list of the winner a lot. almost same as 'pinkfrosting' on MTGO. Trying that one now...
Hidding behind a bridge never felt better in every MU I played yesterday, except UR delver who can quickly get 'below the bridge'
Jandax and I worked together on the Lists we were running there is 1 difference between our lists and that is that I had a Call the Skybreaker and Jandax list contained a Pyroclasm, I opted for the Call as I expected more Control (and this seemed a good wish target for it) However did not face it and a Pyroclasm would have been better, so I am back to Pyroclasm in the board over the Call the Skybreaker other than that our lists are identical.
Against the MUD matchup Fiery Confluence is key. Being able to wish for 1 is also pretty good. Game 1 of the Semis I was able to destroy a Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack and Metalworker with it, which he couldn't recover from.
Game 2 he mulled to 5 and his comeback was too late.
As suggestions to your losses, they can happen, as you are more aggro you are also more prone to aggro. Sweepers can help but they would also hurt your side of the table. Versus UW Controll usually a resolved Planeswalker seals the deal. Baiting out counters with lockpieces, in order of importance. and following that up with a Planeswalker.
But still the matchup can be touch. I have some slots in the SB dedicated for the MU.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Jelmerz77; 11-14-2017 at 08:44 AM.
Hi Jelmerz,
First of all congrats for the win!
Saw your finals vs infect on camera.
Thanks for the quick reply.
Did U consider anger of the gods in the SB instead of 1 of the pyroclasms? Having 3 damage getting through might be interesting vs - amongst others - monastery mentor tokens who get 'prowessed'... Pumping them 3 times might be difficult even for the control player who mostly has more cards in hand than 'we' do...
How did U sideboard against the different matchups?
Any suggestions for the most common MU?
$325, SCG had it listed as HP but the scan looked pretty clean.
Transaction was all trades though. I gave up:
4 Magus of the Wheel
1 Coercive Portal
4 Collective Brutality
4 Thought-Knot Seer (Foil)
2 Flametongue Kavu (Foil)
1 Batterskull (Grand Prix) (Foil)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Prerelease) (Foil)
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge (Foil)
4 Combat Celebrant (Foil)
1 Dig Through Time (Foil)
1 Treasure Cruise (Foil)
2 Ingot Chewer (Foil)
4 Spellskite
1 Batterskull (Foil)
And a handful of dollar rares...
------------------------------------
On topic, good to see pinkfrosting's Burning Wish idea gaining traction! It gives the deck a versatility it hasn't had since Moggcatcher.
Jandax/Jelmerz, how often do you get to play your wish target the same turn you find it? Versus having to wait until the following turn?
The versatility is what attracted me to Moggcatcher and that is also what draws me to the Wishboard.
Usually I play it the next turn it did came up once I played it the same turn. Did not really matter for me.
I most of the time had to wish under a 3Ball anyway and Fiery Confluence was the usual suspect.
Thx :)
Did I consider Anger of the gods? No. There is only 1 Pyroclasm and that serves a purpose, you want to be able to wish for a particular answer. Anger is double red, which can be a pain. And if you want to do 3 damage Confluence is better imo. Being able to wish and cast
Pyroclasm in the same turn for 4 mana is key I think. (which is actually based on nothing since I failed to run Pyroclasm)
We came up with a SB plan for about the top 20 decks we expected to face. But I know for a fact I didn't follow that plan, as I most of the time boarded vs what I saw. Maybe Jandax can share the list and his thoughts on it.
Sideboarding Plan Moon Walker
Aggro:
Grixis Delver
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Death & Taxes
Out: 2 Chalice of the Void 1 Blood Moon
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Eldrazi Aggro
Out: 3 Chalice of the void
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
UR Delver
Out: 4 Blood Moon
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge 1 Trinisphere
Burn
Out: 4 Blood Moon
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge 1 Trinisphere
Maverick
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
BUG Delver / 4 C (Patriot)
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Control:
Grixis Control
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Stoneblade
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
UWx Control
Out: 4 Blood Moon
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
Lands
Out: 3 Trinisphere 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
In: 4 Faerie Macabre 1 Ensnaring Bridge
BUG Midrange (Incl Czech Pile)
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Loam
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Control
Dragon Stompy (Mirror) Aggro Version
Out: 3 Trinisphere
In: 2 Kozilek’s Return 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Dragon Stompy (Mirror) Control Version
Out: -
In: -
(mull to Fiery Confluence)
Metalworker
Out 4 bridge
In 4 faerie macabre (disrupt stax and crucible)
Combo:
Storm
Out: 2 Ensnaring Bridge 3 Sorcerous Spyglass
In: 1 Trinisphere 4 Faerie Macabre
Show & Tell
Out: 2 Fiery Confluence
In: 1 Trinisphere 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Elves
Out: 3 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Magus of the Moon
In: 1 Trinisphere 1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Kozilek’s Return
Reanimator
Out: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass 4 Blood Moon 1 Chalice of the Void
In: 4 Faerie Macabre 1 Trinisphere 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Dark Depths
Out: 3 Sorcerous Spyglass
In: 1 Trinisphere 1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Kozilek’s Return
Food Griffin
Out: 2 magus
In: 2 return
×cotv@1 is good, @2 may be necessary, 3ball is god. Moons hurt but they always set up to go off so all lock pieces must work together. Need to kill them
This is our adapted sideboard plan. This generally come or in packages. Spyglass is out against combo, 3ball out against midrange. Chalice out against chalice decks 😰
Wishing is mostly done not as a set up but as a same turn play. For instance you can also wish for a silver bullet in a match on an off turn and play mind games. I've also had to go wish->pyroclasm or Boom in the same turn so that's why those 2cmc cards are there. Also went Chandra ult into new chandra for 5dmg, burning wish for 5dmg, chandra uptick 2dmg pyroclasm 5dmg in one turn to end the game.
@Megaflippo
Regarding those match ups, I can't speak as to strengths or weaknesses to your deck, could you link a list? I think chalice @2 would be a game breaker for merfolk, confluence and bridge pulling work too. Ur burn is just a tough match for us. Control comes down to skill and a resolved planeswalker, not a match i want to face.
Hi Jandax,
thanks for the reply and advice.
Concerning UR delver: just to quick for me 2 games, smash to smithereens is also a big problem...which he drew every game :((
Merfolk was quick as I played a bridge but could not unload the hand quick enough. Did not draw enough mana to get COV to 2;
Control UW as said before...while playing monored stompy and not having enough control was - certainly after sideboard - extremely hard.
My List was a fusion of the list of Andrew Son (U can find it on mtgtop8) and dragon stompy (Kudaira Syouta - mtggoldfish : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...d-other-things )
MB:
3 captain lannery storm
3 goblin rabblemaster
1 sin prodder
2 Territorial Hellkite
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Magus of the moon
1 hazoret the fervent
1 quicksmith rebel
4 simian spirit guide
4 chandra TOD
3 F confluence
1 Return of Kozilek
1 magma jet
4 COV
4 blood moon
4 chrome mox
4 City of T
4 Ancient Tomb
4 cavern of souls
8 mountains
SB
3 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sulfur Elemental
4 Farie Macabre
2 magus of the moon.
1 Jitte
Wanted to see if Captain Lannery storm was any good: idea was to play him or rabblemaster quick: or U are threatening with GRabblemaster a lot of damage, or U are ramping into almost certainly 4 mana next turn. If U do not blood moon first u have uncounterable quick threats on the board with cavern.
Getting that "2nd" red mana (through treasure tokens) as always a big advantage. And if they would consider countering him, than U have other treats who are coming into play, because they cannot counter all of your spells...
Afterwards trying to resolve Stormbreath Dragon (not abrupt decayable, immune to STP, and fatal push) or throwing in big damage with Territorial Hellkite (kind of F confluence numer '5 and 6'... Again cavern on 'dragon' also possible if no blood moon effect, and a lot of haste creatures...
Can tell U that Lannery Storm is certainly not bad at all: most of opponents do not dare to block it until at least 2 turns, giving U 2 extra mana: probably because they do not know what's coming and maybe due to the threat of losing a piece to damage of lannery with sack of treasure tokens (giving him+1/+0/treasure token) and possible magma jet or F confluence after combat. The ramp is a much more 'stable' and free mana delivery than otherwise for plays in your second main phase.
I am just convinced that U guys made a better choice with more control version in the current meta. Aggro stompy against a lot of aggro stompy can be though as U said...
Hi, looks like you just need some more rounds under your belt to learn the ins and outs of your build better. We're playing two different beasts, traditional stompy and prison, all of which share the same mana base and lock pieces. Ill be happy to rap about the Moon Walker deck some but I don't want to give you bad advice because i don't know enough of the deck myself
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