Jandax, take a look at your sideboard strategies.
- In 16 of 21 match-ups, you bring in your Ensnaring Bridge
- In 15 of 21 match-ups, you bring in 2 Kozilek's Return. In another match-up, you bring one in.
These cards are clearly worthy of maindeck slots - you play way more games with them than without them, and bring them in against over 75% of the field. Determining what to replace will probably depend on your metagame's percentage of each archetype, but in general it kind of seems like Trinisphere comes out a lot. Maybe trim a Spyglass too.
Again, this is based purely on your actual sideboard strategies. I don't personally get too excited about trimming Trinispheres, but it might be right to cut down your number of maindeck Spyglasses or maybe a Magus of the Moon.
Normally I would agree with your suggestion and the method you've used to derive it. And I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with it now...
But playing Burning Wish kinda messes with the method because his sideboard is effectively 8 cards, 4 of which are graveyard hate. When you consider he's really only got 4 cards to tweak his deck with, it's not surprising that they come in so much.
I'm admittedly theorycrafting here because I'm still collecting pieces to try out the Burning Wish list.
Your assesment is based on the fact that you know what your opponent plays (That is why this is a SB strategy list) You usually don't know game 1.
It is not that Trinisphere is bad (It usually does it's job.) however post board there might be better options to wreck your opponents gameplan.
I did this sideboard strategy based on the Metagame on mtgtop8.com and using Pareto Principle (which basicly means leave out the 1%ers)
I was aiming with this strategy for a larger tournament (say 100 or more players) any local variance may apply.
The Sorcerous Spyglass was a testslot that I actually liked, it is versatile and gives you information Game 1 which can make you adjust your sequencing.
At the moment the only change I made was -1 Call the Skybreaker +1 Pyroclasm but I was happy with all the other cards.
And indeed the wishboard makes it that you get rid of your "dead" cards in that particular matchup and replace them with the "usual suspects".
The Metagame is roughly devided in 40% Aggro, 30% Controll and 30% Combo. In my oppinion that 40% does not warrant maindecking Kozilek's Return, I would start thinking that direction if it goes more in the direction of 50%.
I'll back this up and add @the duressed and ace_homebrew that our strategy is based about the numbers homebrew touched. His "theorycrafting" is fairly spot on. Given all this jelmer and I spiked the tournament (á 100 players with local flavor) we set out to. I'm certain that our list is good to go and will be open to discussing card swaps for different metas than ours.
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When I look at this list, you guys bring in Ensnaring Bridge so often that the only times you don't want it are specific match-ups. Again, these are the minority of situations. You talk about focusing on the most frequent situations and ignoring or marginalizing the lower percentages - that's exactly what I'm trying to describe.
I'll break things down another way. The only match-ups in which you don't want that 4th Ensnaring Bridge are:
- Storm
- Food Griffin
- Metalworker
- Dragon Stompy (both variants)
Depending on the metagame, Storm may be up to 10%-15% (mtgtop8 puts it at 5% of top 8s). The rest of these decks are truly fringe players, unlikely to contribute more than 5% of the metagame even if you put all of them together. This means you want that Ensnaring Bridge something like 80% of the time. That sounds like a card I want in my opening 7 against an unknown opponent for sure.
I could be a bit more flexible in my stance on Kozilek's Return. It's more heavily a meta call, but again I'll write down the list of match-ups where you don't bring in at least one copy:
- Storm
- Show and Tell
- Reanimator
- Lands
- Dragon Stompy - Control mirror
If these decks comprise the entirety of combo's 30% metagame share in your area, plus a little bit for Lands, you want a copy of Return in 65% of situations. Are you confident that whatever is in this slots is exciting and maybe game-breaking in at least 65% of match-ups?
I do apologize that I didn't look more closely at your 60 before my previous post, and I've got a question for you. In combo match-ups such as these, is Burning Wish a live card? Seems like the only thing it could do against Storm, Reanimator or S&T would be to get some targeted land destruction or Armageddon effects. Has that been working out well? (I assure you this isn't a critique repackaged as a question - I've never tested with Burning Wish in a Dragon Stompy shell).
Ace/Homebrew, I'm trying to attack it from the other angle. When a player brings cards in from their sideboard, it's because they're better in the match-up than what's being replaced - usually much better. If Ensnaring bridge is better than some other card in 4 match-ups out of 5, then it's the other card that belongs in the sideboard to be brought in for games 2 and 3 in the 20% pairing. Wish-boards have little to do with that particular concept.
Seems to me like you're doing too much theory crafting. Drop the logic you're using that says "if X comes in so much it should be maindeck..."
The truth is with Burning Wish decks is that one doesn't have to sideboard much. To add to the truth, oversideboarding decreases the efficiency of this deck (mono red so it needs all the %'s possible)
The non wish cards in the sideboard could be flexible, for example kozileks return could be another wish target and/or more GY hate/permanent removal of another sort/ect. Our sideboard guide is just that, a guide. In the most common match ups, we're either in a fine position and don't have to board much, or in touch matchups we know just what is a dud maindeck and swapping cards out is easy. Sometimes its s question of whats worse maindeck, card x or a sideboard card then you make the swap given the match situation.
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I am fine about a challenge / discussion about why a card should be in the SB or in the maindeck, thing is that your approach is very black / white.
Yes I / we might board in the Bridge alot. That for me does not mean that it therefore warrants a maindeck slot.
I will take this the other way around, you say the 4th bridge has to go maindeck, so what has to go then?
If I look at the maindeck, I really like the manabase atm so that would be a no go area for me, so;
Manabase:
11 Mountain = no go
4 City of Traitors = no go
4 Ancient Tomb = no go
4 Chrome Mox = no go
4 Simian Spirit guide = no go
This is the core of the deck, if this starts to fall apart, it is time to change decks.
Prison Package:
4 Blood Moon = no go
3 Magus of the Moon = no go
3 Trinisphere = no go
4 Chalice of the Void = no go
3 Ensnaring Bridge = no go as that would be swap bridges :)
Wincons: (If I could I would even go up 1, but not a Pyromaster)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance = no go
2 Chandra, Pyromaster = no go
Various slots:
3 Fiery Confluence = no go, this is the "Allstar" in the deck this the nr 1 Wishtarget in the board.
4 Burning Wish (The versatility is the thing that I like here, get LD for their basic, get a sweeper, get artifact removal, get creature removal)
That leaves 1 card;
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
I like Sorcerous Spyglass, it is versatile, it gives you information, it is not a 3 drop (and for me this is HUGE atm) it gives you something to do next to Chalice of the Void with just 2 mana available.
So in this version of the deck I would leave the 4th Bridge in the board.
This is the way I see it now, and I tried to explain the reasoning behind it.
Jelmer
Hey Jelmer!
I think I'm going to play Dragon's Advocate here and ask Duressed's question. It looks like you SB out your Trinisphere a lot - basically, you keep it in for Combo MUs. Is that worth pushing into the SB and considering something else there?
And I'm honestly not sure why you'd take out the Trinisphere in aggro MUs, especially against Delver. That seems like a brick house there, way better than Bridge - shut off FoW, Daze, and sometimes just lock them when they're on 2 lands, which is turns #1-#7. I would definitely run 3-Sphere against Y Pyro especially, it's crazy not to, and drop Bridge against anything with reach (Bolt/Lightning/Smash/ maybe DRS too). Bridge is definitely not an all-star in all creature MUs - too many times I've been smashed by tokens or other weenies.
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
Its the player's call really, since this guide is more of a thought pattern than fixed swap of cards. You're right 3ball is wonderful in the match up. Leave it in if your opponent rolls over to it!
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Well in the Top 8 there were 2 Storm decks and 1 Infect deck and a Elves deck in the top 8, So I guess that this makes that a good decision. In the Netherlands there always has been a higher percentage of Storm players then average, so that is also something to consider.
And yes it might be better so sideout bridges in certain aggro matchups. (and I know for sure that I didn't even follow the guide all the time)
Excellent post Helmer
The only thing I disagree with is Chandra Pyromaster. Koth of the Hammer is faster and superior 9 times out of 10.
Is Fairie Macabre really the best way to answer graveyard decks or is Leyline of the Void better?
I wish there was a red sorcery that doubles as graveyard hate.
Disagree away but pyromaster is fairly good. Koth is inferior because he is an aggro card that doesn't fit in a prison shell. Try it, you'll see.
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In an Aggro build Koth of the Hammer is superior. In this particular Prison shell the +1 ability probably does nothing because you might hide behind a bridge. Since you go as low as possible on creatures Koth of the Hammer makes your manabase targetable by the opponents otherwise useless removal. The -2 is good if you have a Moon out otherwise it is just mediocre. The -5 ranges from good to great depending on Moon out or not.
The 0 ability s where Chandra, Pyromaster shines both other abilities are mediocre but can be usefull, picking off 1/1's etc (copying Fiery Confluence with the -7 ability is ofcourse the magical christmasland)
The downside of Leyline is that you can play around is (waiting for bounce etc) and you have to aggressively Mulligan for it and it is a horrible draw.
Faerie Macabre isn't a permanent solution but more of a speedbump, I am not sold on it either but I think it is be best option atm. Tormod's Crypt also might be an option.
I would like that sorcery too
I would also like a second top tier red planeswalker.
Last edited by Jelmerz77; 11-26-2017 at 03:48 PM.
Or a fiery confluence on a stick( or planeswalker) ...
do want!
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Can someone post a good goblin prison deck?
I would aprecciate so much
Hey fluuu, this list is a little more than a year old, but I think it's the newest one out there:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post971468
Having played Dragon Stompy without Moggcatcher, I've got a few comments about this list posted. #1 - I hate Cavern, because you have a split between Goblins and Humans, and humans are what you really want to resolve. If you're at 3 mana, and you have to, you drop Cavern for Gobos, and get locked out of Moggcatcher. I think Cavern should be more Mountains.
#2 - I tried playing Moggcatcher a few times, and some MUs make it absolutely dead - generally MUs with Jitte / SoFI / Punishing Fire. These all keep you from getting card advantage off of Moggcatcher, or from dealing with the offending cards that will lock you out of the game. Ensnaring Bridge is probably the best way to deal with SoFI, but only solves about half the problem cards.
#3 - Hazoret the Fervent. (Plus equipment.)
I think the Jittes are definitely awesome in a 20+ creature deck, and maybe a couple SoFIs can hit the SB. Keep in mind Jitte and SoFI can deal with Deathrites and other mana dorks that would normally get around Blood Moon.
I've got a non-Moggcatcher list and you don't *need* Recruiters, but they certainly help out a lot! Plus, Recruiters net you the card right away, unlike Moggcatcher, so you can smash the offending Jitte. If you find Moggcatcher weak in your meta, I'd just replace it with Fiery Confluence (to kill equip) and consider more beaters, like Hanweir Garrison.
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
Still currently playing the burning wish package to relative success. Got absolutely slaughtered against sneak and show last week at my lgs. I was thinking of splashing black for slaughter games. Could be boarded in and also is a wish target game 1. Does anyone think it would be feasible? If I were going to do it I’d probably play 2 badlands with 4-5 fetch. I’m already playing one petal so maybe play two more in place of 2 chrome mox. Also with the black splash I was thinking of maybe cutting one or two magus of the moon in place of new daretti. I don’t think magus of the moon is winning the game and I usually end up cutting two of them even if my opponent is playing all nonbasics if they are playing red. If magus doesn’t get countered he can still get hit by removal.
During the Omni-tell dig through time days imperial painter would splash both white and black. The black was typically for slaughter games and engineered plague. That mana base worked using 1 badlands 5 fetch and 3 petals.
Any thoughts?
Sometimes a match just sucks, is changing the moonwalker deck might shore it up but would it be worth the compromise in other matchups that were already good?
Or maybe a black splash in the manabase and maindeck Slaughter Games instead of Spyglass because you know your matchups anyway, right? Hmm...either Christmasland dreams or a good option moving forward into a shifting meta. How much SnS do you see at a given tournament?
There is always the same person running it at my lgs who I seem to always face especially in the later rounds (usually means we both have winning records. So I’d say guaranteed at least one person running it probably not more than three on a given night of 15-20 players.
My current list is
11 mountain
8 sol land
4 chrome mox
1 petal
4 ssg
4 bridge
4 Chandra torch of defiance
2 Chandra pyromaster
4 burning wish
3 fiery confluence
4 blood moon
4 magus of the moon
3 trinisphere
4 chalice
Sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
2 sourcerous spyglass
1 trinisphere
1 stone rain
1 banefire
1 rolling earthquake
1 boiling seas
1 roast
1 fiery confluence
1 shattering spree
Splashing black:
+2 badlands, +5 red fetch, - 7 mountains
+ 2 lotus petal, - 2 chrome mox
+2 new daretti, -2 magus
Sideboard:
+2 slaughtergames, -1 trinisphere, -1 stone rain.
For the moonwalker sideboard, what is the rationale for faerie macabre instead of something more permanent than the black leyline of the void? Is it advisable to keep the faerie macabre or has anyone tested out the leylines of the void?
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