Well The thing with Conch Horn that it isn't scry. It lets me put a card from my hand onto my Library...
Which lets me miracle Bonfire of the Damned "on Demand" Well that is the theory at least
Well, why don't you try Scroll Rack instead of Conch? Seems way better as long as its not mono-use, even though it doesnt grant card advantage but card quality.
Well I think the additional card give it a slight edge over Scroll Rack
I agree that Conch Horn is better in this deck than Scroll Rack (at least in hellbent lists).
Report back on your findings!
I was able to test out Price of Progress a little as a sideboard card. Needs more testing but so far it has been useful for cutting a turn off the time it takes to kill the opponent.
Went 3-1 at a local tournament. Here's my list:
4 gathan raiders
3 instigator gang
4 rakdos pit dragon
4 magus of the moon
4 hound of griselbrand
4 simian spirit guide
4 chrome mox
4 trinisphere
4 blood moon
4 chalice of the void
2 umezawa's jitte
sb:
3 tormod's crypt
4 ensnaring bridge
2 anarchy
1 viashino heretic
1 shattering spree
4 phyrexian revoker
Some things I realized:
- Right now with Jund and BUG running rampant, you want all 8 moons. Not 7. One will be countered, discarded or destroyed so you want your best chances at having one on the table at all times.
- I've tested many versions of the deck and the best versions are always the ones with less gimmicks and try to do less cute or creative stuff. You want locks and big beats, that is all. More threats the better. No room for seething song, the deck is already inconsistent enough; I don't want to be drawing seething song when my opponent has goyfs in play (this problem comes up already with drawing chrome mox and spirit guides).
- Hound of griselbrand has been awesome against Liliana and as well with Jitte. (I've one shotted countless shocked opponents with it equipped).
Hey guys, I've been working on the Dragon Stompy list again. I'm almost lurking on the Imperial Painter's forum and noticed they discussed Tibalt a bit. Has anyone considered playing him? I tried him out a bit from some goldfish hands and it seems like he can really help with the card quality. He also helps lots with the hellbent list. Of course, he'll make the Bonfire of the Damned worse, but I think the card quality he proves is stellar! I know some of you don't like playing with cards that are 2 drops, but I'd argue that he's almost as important as Umezawa's Jitte. I find that in the opening turns, he's as good as dropping any equipment. He can also do quite a bit of damage if we get our lock pieces down. What do you guys think? Check him out and give me some feed back! Thanks.
PS: I hope this hasn't been discussed already. I searched and only got 2 Tibalt results....
The reason that Painter decks can use Tibalt is that they aren't Chalice based. Because of this, they don't require the screwy manabase that we do. As stated many times before by other people, RR is very difficult for us to come by during games and Tibalt doesn't play nicely with either a Trinisphere or a Chalice at 2. You also can't do any kind of damage with him, which is a huge drawback in such an aggressive deck as ours. So, based on all these reasons, Tibalt is just not for us.
On another note, I think that our Jund matchup is insane. FTK and Moon effects are really good against them.
This is what I'd run at a tournament if I had the chance:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
3x Trinisphere
4x Flametongue Kavu
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Thundermaw Hellkite
4x Blood Moon
4x Seething Song
3x Bonfire of the Damned
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
11x Mountain
Sideboard:
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Anarchy
Sideboard is a little iffy right now. I might want a couple of Pyrokinesis in there. Not sure.
I'm confused. Are we talking about the same card? As I recall:
-4 Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded deals damage equal to the number of cards in target player's hand to that player.
I've been play testing him, and the more I play him, the more I feel like he's part of the core of the deck. He'll get you to business and he'll filter out your useless cards. He's also a damaging threat under Ensnaring Bridge. Chalice or not, it won't affect him as it doesn't affect Umezawa's Jitte. More over, he pitches to Mox, so it actually affects the deck less. He also comes down for 2 mana, which happens to smooth out the curve after a first turn Moon effect. I'm really liking him and am definitely willing to cut Bonfire of the Damned for it. My current list runs Pyrokinesis main instead of side to make up for the lack of Bonfire. Check him out before criticising.
He improves card quality and allows for a more deadly Rakdos. Please try. I've decided to play him as a 4-of now so that I can shoot people with Tibalt more often. It's awesome.
PS: thanks for sharing your list. I'm actually actively looking for SB options, as I feel like the current options aren't that great. So far, I've found Ensnaring Bridge as a definite inclusion as it answers many of the problem match ups. I also feel that Anarchy is necessary due to the inherent poor match up with white control decks. I'm not sure what else to include. I feel that the graveyard hate is not necessary because of Bridge. Dredge and Reanimator seem powerless against Ensnaring Bridge, especially multiples...
The REDblasts don't seem too stellar as it hurts hellbent lists and aren't great with Chalice of the Void (being a 1 drop is a lot more crucial). Other cards that I like include Jaya, Phyrexian Metamorph, Flametongue Kavu, and extra sphere/moon/pyrokinesis dependent on build. I read a few pages ago that someone wanted to try Price of Progress. Although, I feel that's a very scary play for the opponent, I can't but help to think that they'll play around your moon effect on the play anyway, so they'll get a basic or 2 in play before your POP goes off. That said, I don't think that attack their lands is a bad idea. I've been trying Boil and Flashfire to assault their basics. It's also probably guaranty to resolve after they counter the moon effects. I think that's great.
Tibalt can't do very much damage under an Ensnaring Bridge that has any level of effectiveness. If they don't have enough cards in their hand to allow you to attack, then Tibalt isn't going to do much damage to them. If you want to draw cards, then go with either Dangerous Wager or Reforge the Soul. I think those are the best card drawing tools we have right now.
Ensnaring Bridge
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
Read Tibalt again. If your opponent has an Ensnaring Bridge out, then it will only be effective if he has few to no cards in hand. Tibalt doesn't do much damage to a player with few to no cards in hand. If your opponent has many cards in hand, then Tibalt is just worse than any creature who can attack through the Ensnaring Bridge.
I was thinking I'm using Ensnaring Bridge. I wasn't suggesting that the opponent has Ensnaring Bridge. Although that said, I suppose Ensnaring Bridge could be annoying for Dragon... LOL. I'll think of a solution for that later. Yes, Tidbalt does no damage if their hand is empty. If their hand is empty, then your Dragon list isn't doing anything to slow it down. You've already lost.
Although, upon further thought, I don't think anyone would board in Ensnaring Bridge VS dragon Stompy
I am playing both Imperial Painter and Dragon Stompy (Depending on personal preference and meta choices) But I never wanted to play Tibalt in either decks... The discard at random is just soooo not good. And with Dragon Stompy I would minimize the 2 drops to a minimum anyway. And Tibalt will probably never be one of them...
That was me. I found Stoneblade matchups to be difficult and so far my limited testing has shown Price of Progress to be effective against them. They are going to drop a land every turn and once we stick a moon effect, most will be non-basic Mountains.
Zupponn, have you tried Cavern of Souls to power through a Magus or Pit Dragon? I've been running 3 in the board and it feels right.
Regarding Pyroclasm VS Pyrokinesis, I"ve always found that Pyroclasm isn't that great especially since most of our creatures have 2 toughness (Magus, morph dudes, Sulfur Elemental, Flametongue Kavu, Simian Spirit Guide, etc.) I think Trinisphere is not a big problem as if you have a 3sphere lock, you generally don't need to remove more than 1 creature so Pyroclasm would be irrelevant. However, if you had a Magus of the Moon, you might need to remove multiple creatures:
For example, vs Goblin decks, would you rather have Pyrokinesis on their goblins AND your Magus or would you rather Pyrokinesis? As I pointed out, Pyrokinesis is effective VS the swarm you want it because if you had 3sphere out, you wouldn't need to cast the pyrokinesis. Sorry if this post was confusing.
Card advantage is the only argument against Pyrokinesis, but then again, you need it for hellbent, or else your creatures are just terrible.
Yeah, further testing against a competent opponent showed that the randomness screwed me over. That plan is out. I know Tibalt is not popular in iPainters. If it wasn't random, it would have been a lot better, but still, I couldn't protect Tibalt. Tarmogoyf is too much of a problem for this deck. Goyf was almost always a 6/7 against me. I twasn't fun.
Yeah, sorry, I was too lazy to check your user name. So, the way you use Price of Progress is only to lock in their non-basic lands so that they can take more damage from Price of Progress? Maybe I shall try that out too.
I really like your list, except I didn't understand Cavern of Souls too much, especially in the main. My problem with Cavern of Souls is that you can't play a lot of creatures with him. If you use him to protect your humans, then your dragons and simians are vulnerable. I did feel that they were better than Redblast though, as Redblasts usually aren't very synergetic with Chalice.
I don't mean to derail this, but with Blood Moon out non-basics become Non-Basic Mountains (for Price of Progress purposes)? If so I never knew that.. I always assumed Blood Moon/Magus turned off PoP.
That's correct. If you look closely at Blood Moon / Magus, they turn lands only into Mountains. If those lands did not have the Basic Land type before, they don't gain it, ie. become non-basic Mountains.
Artifact lands will also remain artifacts, just artifact Mountains :)
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