[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[The Crow's Eye]

The jig is up and folks are now throwing counters at my Moggcatchers. Should I shift gears with the deck, or is it perfectly reasonable to cardcast our Kikis and Siege Gangers?

[Blastoderm]

The jig is up and folks are now throwing counters at my Moggcatchers. Should I shift gears with the deck, or is it perfectly reasonable to cardcast our Kikis and Siege Gangers?

I usually cast a siege-gang every match...perfectly reasonable. I play 3 main but no kiki as it's bad on it's own.

[Zupponn]

edit: if it's you who proposed Confusion in the Ranks, then kudos, I think it is a very good option. Not only it is good as an answer, it can also be hardcast on the later turns and it definitely kicks ass when paired with those Rabblemaster tokens. Plus, it may give some use to all those "dead" Blood Moons and Trinispheres (or even SSG/Magi) we may draw later.

I was running Confusion for quite some time, but more recently have switched to Ensnaring Bridge. Bridge is just more useful out of the sideboard as it is relevant against a wider range of decks. Confusion is mostly just brought in against Show and Tell strategies while Bridge can help vs dexks like Merfolk or Reanimator while still being good against Show and Tell (not counting Omnitell).

[0dysseus]

I usually cast a siege-gang every match...perfectly reasonable. I play 3 main but no kiki as it's bad on it's own.

I guess you prefer not to play equipment then, for the same reason? I generally agree with your "bad on it's own" logic, but here only partially. Yes, it is good to have threats that can stand their own ground. And that was the argument against Krenko, Mob Boss : if Krenko is alone or paired with 1 creature, he doesn't do much; and if he's paired with many then he's win-more - and you'd rather cast/Moggcatch a Siege-Gang in that scenario.
But Kiki is a bit different, because he doesn't just replicate 1/1 tokens, he also replicates the abilities from your goblins. Tap Kiki on Scrapper, and you have an artifact-destruction ability each turn (that deals 2 dmg, because copy is an Ally), if the game is still stalled. Tap Kiki on Siege-Gang and it's practically the same as fetching a Siege-Gang, or activating Krenko's ability. Tap Kiki on Redcap, and you have 2 extra direct damage per turn. Not to mention the possible Settler lock. Kiki seems to me like a small Staff of Domination in this deck, and I'd rather play Kiki than equipment, because fetchable Kiki also has legs and haste even if 2/2. Even if you have a sole Kiki on the battlefield, when you cast a creature after that it's a plus because you simply "send the zombie" ahead to attack/block. But my main point is that Kiki is extra useful for continuously duplicating the toolbox's abilities. Please tell me your opinion on this.
For anyone interested to test sth funny, there is an infinite damage combo with Kiki, Sharp shooter, and Lightning Crafter (championing any other Goblin/Shaman). Sharpshooter deals 1 dmg at target, Kiki copies Crafter, the copied Crafter champions Kiki, then the copy shoots itself, then when it goes to the graveyard (and before disappearing as a token) Sharpshooter's trigger is activated and he untaps, and also Kiki returns to the battlefiels untapped. And the loop goes on. The bad with Crafter, of course, is that you can't even play him on his own, so it's probably a SB choice as a Moggcatched answer to mass destruction.

I was running Confusion for quite some time, but more recently have switched to Ensnaring Bridge. Bridge is just more useful out of the sideboard as it is relevant against a wider range of decks. Confusion is mostly just brought in against Show and Tell strategies while Bridge can help vs dexks like Merfolk or Reanimator while still being good against Show and Tell (not counting Omnitell).

Ensnaring Bridge could be my top favorite card in magic, since the time I wanted to improve "The Sparkler" Tempest-block preconstructed deck I had And it is currently in my SB.
However, trying not to be sentimental but effective when I deck build Dragon Stompy, I think twice about Confusion in the Ranks. Thrice, basically, because I also have 2-3 Bonfire main and 3-4 Ratchet Bombs SB against mass creatures. We play Bridge vs. Reanimator's Show and Tell? I don't think it's that good. Ashen Rider or Tidespout Tyrant will eat Ensnaring Bridge for breakfast.
The same will happen to Confusion in the Ranks of course, but! it will happen after the exchange, and we will have a big dude on our side, or am I wrong? I am merely asking, because I've tested Bridge, but not yet Confusion. Let's say:

Opponent plays Show and Tell to "reanimate" Griselbrand. You "reanimate" Confusion. You probably have creatures, (s)he probably has only Putrid Imp. The Confusion triggers, and he knows you will exchange Magus (or sth small) for Griselbrand... so he most probably will use the "Pay 7 life" ability in response to the Confusion's trigger and before the exchange. He draws his ass, and then Grisy is yours. Next round Grisy will draw you cards too, and he will attack. And each time the opponent brings sth big, he will have to exchange the new big for his old stolen big, worst case scenario.
The best for him could perhaps be:
(A) to play another Putrid Imp, and take back his stolen big creature giving you the puny Imp, or,
(B) bring Ashen and destroy Confusion?

In (A) you'll have tons of small dudes to cast and steal the biggy again.
In (B) Ashen will be yours finally, because the Confusion's trigger will remain on stack even after it's destroyed, and so you'll steal Ashen Rider. Whereas Ensnaring Bridge would just be destroyed.. (and don't get me wrong, it's maybe my top favorite card as I said).

I'll test Confusion anyway, but please tell me if I err, either on the trigger rulings above, or in my comparison between Confusion vs. Bridge. Don't forget that a card choice can be judged as good/bad only if you compare it to the rest of your 75. If my list's a specialist at small creature removal (Bonfire/Bombs), then perhaps what Bridge offers is win-more, and so I can focus on anti-"Show-and-Tell-like" tricks.

I could copy-paste this to the Reanimator thread, but I thought I'd rather ask here first.

[Ace/Homebrew]

For anyone interested to test sth funny, there is an infinite damage combo with Kiki, Sharp shooter, and Lightning Crafter (championing any other Goblin/Shaman). Sharpshooter deals 1 dmg at target, Kiki copies Crafter, the copied Crafter champions Kiki, then the copy shoots itself, then when it goes to the graveyard (and before disappearing as a token) Sharpshooter's trigger is activated and he untaps, and also Kiki returns to the battlefiels untapped. And the loop goes on.

Sort of...

So Goblin Sharpshooter has already been on the battlefield a turn and is 'live'.
Kiki-Jiki, the Mirror Breaker is also already on the field.

You draw and play Lightning Crafter.
Lightning Crafter enters the battlefield and the Champion trigger goes on the stack (but you haven't chosen a target yet).

Tap Sharpshooter to deal 1 damage.
Tap Kiki-Jiki to make a copy of Crafter. Crafter copy enters the battlefield with haste. Champion trigger goes on the stack. Crafter copy champions Kiki-Jiki. Crafter copy taps to deal 3 damage to itself. This returns Kiki-Jiki to the battlefield untapped and also untaps Sharpshooter because the Crafter copy token goes to the yard triggering the untap before disappearing.

Repeat.
So you never actually need a 4th goblin for the original Crafter to champion.



Having said that, I don't believe Lighting Crafter warrants a spot in this deck. And Goblin Sharpshooter's spot is in the sideboard if it is included at all...

[0dysseus]

[...]

Repeat.
So you never actually need a 4th goblin for the original Crafter to champion.


Having said that, I don't believe Lighting Crafter warrants a spot in this deck. And Goblin Sharpshooter's spot is in the sideboard if it is included at all...

Cool xD Thanx 4 the trick! You can also do the auto-shoot copied-Crafter thing first, in case Sharpshooter is tapped, and start the combo from there. I also agree on what u said, that's why I named the combo as "sth funny": It doesn't seem competitive. Yet it takes about the same number of turns (if not cards) to activate as you'd kill with Koth of the Hammer's ability. But it's perhaps more fragile to Terminus, even if you Moggcatch your Goblins @ opponents EOT (otherwise you can always fetch Crafter and "hide" your best goblin).

Koth: (1) Cast Koth, +1 loyalty [,edit: attack with Mountain if it can], and Koth has to remain undamaged. (2) +1 loyalty (5 total). (3) -5 loyalty, get emblem, mountains start shooting (damage is not red+++) And also you probably don't play spells (4) Shooting mountains hopefully end the game, if opponent's life is relatively low.

Combo: (1) Cast Moggcatcher (same mana---^), he has to live (but it's easier). (2) You wait for opponent's EOT, Moggcatching Kiki/Sharpshooter. (3) You wait for opponent's EOT Moggcatching Shaprshooter/Kiki (the other) combo part. You don't have the control effect that shooting Mountains offer, but you can still tap Kiki to copy sth with a relevant ability. (4) You Moggcatch Crafter on your upkeep, and hopefully combo off.

edit2: u can do this even one turn later, by fetching SCG first, then Kiki, then Sharpshooter, and if you haven't won by then, play your insta-gib.

I understand that the best play would be Moggcatcher > Siege Gang > Kiki, copying Siege-gang (or Rabblemaster). And sacrificing copied Goblins EOT to Commander. But since Sharpshooter can have his uses, and Crafter is a good (and tutorable) answer vs. Wrath effects, I am definitely gonna give this a shot, now that I've discovered it, and tell you guys my results.

[Zupponn]

Yeah, Koth is in there solely for the Miracles matchup where he just wins the game when he hits. They might have a Council's Judgment or Detention Sphere, but really have no way to interact with him. He easily hits 5 loyalty, ults, and wins the game.

He's the only card that I have in the side vs solely one deck, but seeing how popular Miracles is and how dominant he is in the matchup, I think he's totally worth it.

Vs your combo we have 1 good card vs 1 good card and 2 subpar cards, so I think the slot efficiency wins out here.

[0dysseus]

Slot-efficiency-wise, Koth of the Hammer is better. Still, Lightning Crafter can be tutored. And most importantly, as a response to mass removal. Before I dismiss my idea, I want to know exactly how it is when a fetched Crafter champions our Siege Gang Commander, and Gang starts partying after the mass removal effect. Or, alternatively, it can champion a Rabblemaster.
Two things are for sure here:
1) Subparness is relative, not only to the win conditions of the game, but also to the opponent ("it's like 10000 spoons, when all you need is a knife" -A.Morisette), and,
2) I can't prove anything, 'till I do.

Rabblemaster stays x4. Moggcatcher too. 2 Siege Gangs work fine. 19 lands work fine, at least till now. Let me test more, and then I'll tell you what I got

[The Crow's Eye]

The rogue Mono Red Sneak Attack decks run Seething Song to help make their plays. What makes Seething Song work for their deck as opposed to Dragon Stompy variants running stuff like Stormbreath or Thundermaw Hellkite? Both seem to be on a similar gameplan of winning quick while establishing some soft prison elements, and both play a similar mana base, the difference being MRSA's use of Sandstone Needle as well.

[ZTurgeon]

The rogue Mono Red Sneak Attack decks run Seething Song to help make their plays. What makes Seething Song work for their deck as opposed to Dragon Stompy variants running stuff like Stormbreath or Thundermaw Hellkite? Both seem to be on a similar gameplan of winning quick while establishing some soft prison elements, and both play a similar mana base, the difference being MRSA's use of Sandstone Needle as well.

It's just more moving peices. When it works, it will work well, but the more things that are bad top decks, and the more things that need other things to work, the worse this deck gets.


That is why people moved to the goblin build. Moggcatcher will end the game on its own if not dealt with. Same goes for Rabblemaster.


So the game plan has moved to cheaper threats that will still end the game under a lock piece, and are playable on turns 2-3 without an extra card. Because of our lack of card selection, we just can't afford to have any more dead draws late.

[Zupponn]

Yeah, the point of the Goblin builds is to increase consistency at the cost of explosiveness. Neither way is necessarily correct, but each player is going to lean towards their own personal preferences and playstyles.

[jmlima]

Guys, quick question. I'm playing the Goblin build and recently came upon a mono-b discard deck that puts in play Liliana's Caress + Underworld Dreams.

The deck escapes the Moon effects, since it only plays basics, puts in play the two enchantments above that for the most part escape an early chalice and also puts in play Vampire Nighthawk and hippy.

I could deal with the critters but in doing so the two Underworld Dreams in play put the clock ticking, coupled with the odd discard, put me in a losing proposition.

Big ramble to ask a simple question. The only out I can think to the above is by using Ratchet Bombs to blow the enchantments. Or am I missing something?

Thanks.

[0dysseus]

Guys, quick question. I'm playing the Goblin build and recently came upon a mono-b discard deck that puts in play Liliana's Caress + Underworld Dreams.

The deck escapes the Moon effects, since it only plays basics, puts in play the two enchantments above that for the most part escape an early chalice and also puts in play Vampire Nighthawk and hippy.

I could deal with the critters but in doing so the two Underworld Dreams in play put the clock ticking, coupled with the odd discard, put me in a losing proposition.

Big ramble to ask a simple question. The only out I can think to the above is by using Ratchet Bombs to blow the enchantments. Or am I missing something?

Thanks.

Okay jmlima, first I'm going to give you a link to a post by Tacosnape, from page 87 of the old Dragon Stompy thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post307869

Somewhere in that post he's speaking of Mono Black Control as a bad matchup. I don't know if the deck you describe is exactly "MBC", and of course many things have changed since then. But this deck, and color red in Magic has a problem against Enchantments by default. My suggestions to you would be:

1) Ignore the Enchantments. I think you are indeed doing something else wrong. Because you aren't running card draw, Moggcatcher's ability also doesn't count as card draw, and opponent's discard can be countered to a level by Chalice. [Just asking: How many times did you play against him, in order to make the inference that this is a bad matchup?]

2) Use the mana core of the deck to your advantage. The main core of the deck ain't Moons for me. The core of the deck are the cards that make it possible for Moons & other lockpieces to be such a devastating play turn 1. City & Tomb & Simian & Mox; aka speed. Try playing Goblin Rabblemaster turn 1, and then Chalice, using the deck's mana explosiveness. Run 4 Rabblemasters. On the previous page I had a doubt about this quartet, but they are too good to be true (and at the right mana cost - 2R). I'm a player that often fell into the danger-of-cool-things trap, and now I try to build decks as efficient as can be, with no emotional strings attached on specific cards. So, just take the initiative, and start pounding fast, making it for them necessary to race you with Vampire Nighthawk, and thus turning discard into a bad play (because Rabblemaster & Co. beats the shit out of them in the meantime). And thus turning the opp's enchantments into a bad play. Play your game faster that the opp plays his/her. Make him follow you instead, if you can.

3) Run 2-3 Jitte :) It can kill with the -1/-1, plus it gains you back your lost life. I don't use it right now, however if you are concerned that much about life loss, you can even playtest a singleton Batterskull, or a Sword of Light and Shadow.

4) Playtest Bonfire of the Damned, or Chaos Warp main, the latter can hit enchantments. Also play Ratchet Bombs SB as you say, Pyrokinesis is very good vs. creatures too.

And be mindful that there is no deck in Magic that can do it all; finally, that you need a lot of games against that opponent in order to say that his deck's really beating this one. It could just be your unlucky day. If you had his list, we could arrange some playtesting on MWS, if u like.

[jmlima]

Firstly, many thanks for your super-informative answer.

One small note, I was not making a sweeping statement of 'this is a difficult match-up' for this deck, just wondering because it was the first time I came against something I really had no clue how to tackle with the deck I had (let alone the cards in my hand!).

Your point was also most useful. I'm sort of new to this deck (some 30 matches with the rakdos dragon version and some 10 with the goblins one - much prefer the gobos) so I'm always looking for helpful pointers about how to play it.

Thanks again!

[0dysseus]

You are right, indeed you did not make such an inference (sweeping statement). My bad. A pleasure, if I can help with an extra opinion

[Zupponn]

Your point was also most useful. I'm sort of new to this deck (some 30 matches with the rakdos dragon version and some 10 with the goblins one - much prefer the gobos) so I'm always looking for helpful pointers about how to play it.

My advice would be to practice, practice, and practice. Legacy is a wide and diverse format and learning both how your deck runs and how other decks run is very important to being successful.

Personally, I believe that mulliganing is the most difficult part of playing this deck, as there are games where your opening hand will either win or lose you the game.

If you have any other questions, we are always more than happy to give you our input. I love seeing that we're getting new Dragon Stompy players. It reminds me that others enjoy smashing the snobby blue players' faces in as well.

[0dysseus]

+1 for that punchline ---^ (cause it is almost literally a punch-line:)) We have new and dynamic entrieeees (as well as rusty ones like meee..) in the DS thread, blue wizards beware!!

And +10 for the "practice, practice and practice" thing.

I'd like to add that just because mulligan is important here, the addition of 1-2 Mountains to the old 18-count does feel good. Now I'm trying to find out which is the least number of Mountains in the land count, in order to reliably have double red mana by turn 4. Counting Moxes as lands in this estimation as well. If anyone has done some math like this, please share.
If you google "expected number of lands", you'll find sites with spreadsheets:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0 ,

and also personal sites like this: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/expected-...ble-mana-base/ .

[jmlima]

Thanks for the welcome guys!

[jmlima]

Guys, another couple of newcomer questions:

a) Is there a 'guide' about how to set Chalice for the various match-ups? (I've got one but is from my Modern past, so, no good here, and could not find anything online, my google-fu failed me!)

b) If you are on the play and have no idea what you are facing, what is the best hate to play (or mulligan to...) on the first turn ? Chalice, Trinisphere or Moons? Or is it better to play a threat and decide on hate when you have an inkling of what you are against on T2?

Thanks!

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Guys, another couple of newcomer questions:

a) Is there a 'guide' about how to set Chalice for the various match-ups? (I've got one but is from my Modern past, so, no good here, and could not find anything online, my google-fu failed me!)

b) If you are on the play and have no idea what you are facing, what is the best hate to play (or mulligan to...) on the first turn ? Chalice, Trinisphere or Moons? Or is it better to play a threat and decide on hate when you have an inkling of what you are against on T2?

Thanks!

A) I've got these notes from when I first started playing legacy. Though it was for the 4 Chalice of the Void in the board of my Vial Goblin list.

Setting Counters for [card]Chalice of the Void[/card].

@*, Dredge/Hive Mind: Don't use it.
@0, Belcher: You may not have another turn to play it at 1.
@0, TES (The Epic Storm)
@1, TES (The Epic Storm): If they have played their 0cc cards already, play for 1 next turn because they want to [card]Duress[/card] you to take it out of your hand before they [card]Tendrils of Agony[/card] or [card]Empty the Warrens[/card]. Also stops [card]Orim's Chant[/card].
@1, High Tide: Stops [card]High Tide[/card].
@1, Reanimator: Stops [card]Entomb[/card], [card]Reanimate[/card], [card]Careful Study[/card] of the useful cards for their combo.
@1, Elves: You've got all of their "Cantrips" ([card]Fyndhorn Elves[/card], [card]Llanowar Elves[/card], [card]Arbor Elf[/card], [card]Glimpse of Nature[/card])
@1, AdnT ([card]Ad Nauseam[/card], [card]Tendrils of Agony[/card]: You need to stop their cantrips. They don't have less 0cc cards than TES.
@1, Zoo: Because bad things look like this - [card]Wild Nacatl[/card], [card]Lightning Bolt[/card], [card]Swords to Plowshares[/card] ... you get the idea.
@1, Stiflenought: Stops [card]Stifle[/card] and [card]Phyrexian Dreadnought[/card] amongst other important things.
@1, (R)(U)(G) Delver: Stops [card]Delver of Secrets[/card], [card]Brainstorm[/card], [card]Ponder[/card], [card]Lightning Bolt[/card], [card]Forked Bolt[/card] and feels good about it.
@1, Burn: Anything that halts a [card]Lightning Bolt[/card] must be considered

You generally just want it at 1 though.

B) In the blind you just keep working hands. Because you don't know what you're up against just assume it's a normal part of the meta, which your deck is designed to fight. I could list things like, have a Moon turn 1 or 2, a threat and mana to cast it all, but you already knew that. Opening hands are very difficult in this deck and there is probably enough finesse to write a primer on it alone. Just keep jamming and read what it feels like.