Zenith-Order (GUW, GWB)

[ivanpei]

Green Sun's Zenith is the latest bomb spoiled in Mirrodin besieged and everybody's buzzing about it. I'm starting this thread to discuss the obvious synergy between: Green Sun's Zenith, Dryad Arbor, Natural Order.

The two mid-range decks that are known to utilize Natural order properly are Bant aggro and The Rock. Here are my two decklists incorporating the Zenith to start off:

Zenith Order Bant

2 Noble Heirarch
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillon Clique (Or Rhox Warmonk)

1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator (Or the 3rd Warmonk)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Spell pierce
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical
1 Tundra
1 Savanna

Zenith Order Rock

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vexing Shusher (Or Gaddock Teeq)

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Wasteland
1 Dryad arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savanna
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

So how does Zenith Change the game? First of all, these decks are mid-range, hence they are not incredibly fast, nor pack too much gas for the late game. Mid-range decks pack just enough of everything. Zenith is the ultimate mid-range card because it:

A) Accelerates: For 1 Mana you can search out a Dryad Arbor. This literally functions as a Llawonar Elf. You now can run up to 8 mana dudes without the risk of drawing too many late game as the Zenith is also an awesome topdeck.
B) Tarmogoyf 5-8: Ever wished you can play 8 Tarmogoyfs? Well now you can, for 1 colourless mana more.
C) Disenchant effect tutor: Hate playing too many disenchant effects that are sometimes too narrow? Or hate playing too little and getting blown out by equipment and counterbalance? This allows you to play a high number of disenchant effects without the risk of being flooded by them.
D) Tutorable Regrowth on a stick: Late game slugfest? Tutoring for an Eternal Witness to regrowth a Force Of Will, Swords To Plowshares to maintain control or a Natural Order to just "win the game".
F) Tutorable "hosers": Limited sideboard space? Just run 1 of each: Gaddock Teeq, Xantid Swarm, Vexing shusher. You can hate on Combo and play around Counterbalance + Counterspells by boarding in the relevant hate cards.
E) Ever increasing threat count: Green Sun's Zenith shuffles back into the library, so your chances or redrawing the Zenith increases as you drag the game out. Fetchlands decreases your chances of drawing land late in the game while the Zenith increases your chance of drawing threats/gas late in the game.

In summary, Green Sun'z Zenith strikes me as a 1 mana Eladamri's Call which dodges Counterbalance AND can also function as a Llawonar elf. Does that sound broken? It sure does! Throw these amazing effects into existing Tier 1 decks and you can really have something extremely dominant. Brainstorming and thoughts appreciated, especially regarding possible tutor targets.

[DragoFireheart]

New deck skeleton for Blue decks.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tarmogoyf Tutor
4 Tropical Island
?????

Tier 1 deck?

[ivanpei]

Haha, @ Drago, AGREED. Except the 4 Tropical Island part, 3 Trops + 1 Dryad Arbor seems more likely. But IMO the lists here aren't anything revolutionary. It's just common sense and Zenith is just so insane, it doesn't take much to abuse it.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think there is anything super special about the green zenith. It's just a tutor for lots of good green creatures.


Tarmogoyf
Knight of the Reliquary
Eternal Witness
Qasali Pridemage
Rhox War Monk
Noble Hierarch
Trygon Predator



Keep in mind that Zenith also makes green hate bears a good choice for our sideboard as a one of as we can fetch them.

[ivanpei]

It's a tutor for creatures that costs G with no card disadvantage (unlike worldly tutor). If it was just that, it would be good. But what makes it great is that it that it puts a llawonar elf into play for G. What makes it broken is that it shuffles back into your library and has X in its cost, making chalice and counterbalance irrelevant. It is a card that you will always want to see at any stage of the game. This makes this card truly exceptional and over the top.

[DragoFireheart]

The fact that it gets around chalice and (to a lesser extent) counterbalance is going to push decks that depend on those cards to work harder to fight around this card.

How about Zenith in Hannis new Vial Bant aggro deck? Tutor for creatures and Vial in any in our hand?

[ivanpei]

Vial doesn't really play nice with Zenith as zenith puts into play. But Zenith could just be a nice 2/3 off thrown into the deck to up the Tarmogoyf count. Thats never a bad thing. :)

[DragoFireheart]

I want 4 if these before they start to jump in price. Vintage can use it as well to get Cold-Eyed Selkie.

[Ryoku]

E) Ever increasing threat count: Green Sun's Zenith shuffles back into the library, so your chances or redrawing the Zenith increases as you drag the game out. Fetchlands decreases your chances of drawing land late in the game while the Zenith increases your chance of drawing threats/gas late in the game.

This doesn't work as an argument. Even though you're shuffling it back in, you're also removing a threat from your deck, making the net change in the deck equal to zero, exactly as though you had drawn a threat naturally. Obviously, this is not true if you have no threats left in your deck, but that would be somewhat of a moot point.

[ivanpei]

I understand your argument, the total threat balance is the same, sure but your Zenith count will increase. I should have rephrased my point into:

E) Ever increasing Green Sun's Zenith Count.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I don't think there is anything super special about the green zenith. It's just a tutor for lots of good green creatures.

It obviously dodges Remove Soul.

The card's pretty solid. The come into play makes it more versatile, if anything it makes your 1cmc, 2cmc creatures dodge Chalice easier. In elves combo it looks really good... I was also thinking fishing out cards like Scute Mob

[ivanpei]

Yeah this is ideal in elf combo. It looks for nettle sentinel, regal force, etc etc. Its a good chord of calling. Still doesn't find glimpse though and that's the most important card in combo elves. Scute mob is a good suggestion. It can be played as a 1 off. Getting to 5 lands is going to be difficult though. And if you had 5 lands, I don't think you'd be tutoring for a 1 drop vanilla beater that dies to bolt. I'd be tutoring for KOTR or something instantly big.

[Valtrix]

So, just playing around a bit but what about something like:


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Savannah
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [U] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [MI] Wall of Roots

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [WWK] Perimeter Captain
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman

Sideboard is up in the air (Captains are merely to buy time to land natural order). But, some thoughts about what I was thinking when I threw this together...You first of all want to be able to beat combo. This means you probably need to run blue or black. I think black is stronger in this deck because discard is simply better than counters, since you probably don't want to run a lot of blue creatures. This means that your orders are protected, but futhermore you can get progenitus out of your hand and back into your library if you need to. Thoughtseize is the best, and I chose cabal therapy because it's the only thing that also gets your progentius. Also, if you're going to use natural order, cabal therapies in the yard let you trade any extra creatures on board to make sure their hand has no counterspells in it, which is very strong in my opinion. It also stops pesky firespouts from running your mana-creatures.

Next is make sure you have an aggro backup plan. Well, to me aggro is somewhat defined by goyf and knight of the reliquary, so I think these guys can win the game by themselves easily enough. Plus this works much better with discard to strip your opponent's hand of crucial removal to deal with your high class threats. Zenith already means it's like you're running 12 of these threats, which is plenty.

Now for acceleration, because turn three natural orders are rough for most any deck. 2 dryad arbor seems right to me, that way you can tutor for land multiple times and sacrifice more to therapies or natural order off fetchlands. Hierarch is an auto-include. Even not running blue, the acceleration, green creature, and exalted is too much to pass up. Finally I chose wall of roots. This might be a mistake, birds of paradise might just be better. However, I feel like wall gives you a little extra time against aggro if you can't combo out right away (mostly zoo).

As far as zenith utility goes you don't need a lot. Just a gaddock teeg to shut combo down long enough for you to smack them to death, and maybe an eternal witness and pridemage for utility.

I also opted for sensei's divining top, because between knight of the reliquary, fetches, and zenith you have a lot of shuffle effects. This means you can dig for natural order a lot more, dig for protection, or just keep a stream of creatures. It also helps stop you from drawing progenitus, which I think is huge.

Finally I like running lands for knight, because I think a second turn knight fetching wastelands is usually pretty devastating for decks. Plus with mana acceleration wasteland is a very, very strong tempo play. I also included a volrath's stronghold for the obvious synergy with knight (and creatures in general), though it might be unnecessary.

Anyway, my take on using Zenith.

[Philipp2293]

You are a little light on white mana IMO, it looks like you are too dependant on your Hierarchs. Maybe I am underestimating the Zenith, but I would run a second Savannah.

[DragoFireheart]

It obviously dodges Remove Soul.

It also dodges Spell Snare for Goyfs and Pridemages.

[ivanpei]

@ Valtrix, I like your cabal therapy approach and I think for non-blue versions of Zenith-Order, 2 Dryads are probably optimal. However, no Swords? Was what an oversight or does the deck run enough threats to drop removal all together? I'd still run 4 though. I'm thinking about sticking a couple of equipment into the MD. Fetchlands into Dryad EOT followed by swinging in with equipment seems boss. And no vindicate? I'm a big fan of the card as it compliments the LD plan well and is a devastating Turn 2 play off a heirarch/Zenith.

[Valtrix]

I didn't opt for swords perhaps because I'm a bit too focused on the NO plan. Swords is definitely a lot better to pursue the aggro route with, but then again you're mainly winning with goyfs/knights anyway, which are the biggest creatures in the battlefield usually. I think therapy is particularly strong, because it's flashback lets you turn an extra creature the turn you want to cast NO on into protection. I like discard a lot because of the use versus combo and blue decks. Sure, it's not winning any topdeck wars, but this deck hopefully doesn't want to go too far into that part of the game. The main probably is SDT, as that is the strongest way to protect counterspells. As such, xantid swarm in the board just seems very strong. I also replaced the witness with swarm, because I think that that's much more important.

I don't think wall of roots is the right choice though, and I'm not really sure that the deck needs more 1cc acceleration. Vindicate might be a good choice, since you can try the mana-denial route and it gives you some flexibility in removal, but it might be most effective to just run more threats, maybe terravores would be a good choice, because then you really are running all of the biggest creatures on the battlefield and it does strengthen your aggro gameplan quite a bit I think.

[Justin]

The Rock version will need a second big creature as a natural order target. You need some backup in case you draw Progenitus. In the Bant version, you can use Brainstorm or Clique to get Progenitus out of your hand. The Rock version has no way to do this (other than Thoughtseizing yourself, which sucks), so it will need to run another big guy such as Terastodon.

[Ramirez777]

I have a similar take on the deck, but I think that that sticking with blue to protect Natural Order is a safer route. Not to mention that Noble Heirarch plays on the blue build. I'm having trouble panning out the mana base, but I've narrowed down the land selection. This version focuses on the green and blue aspect, and mostly utilizes white post sideboard. I'm going to do what most people do, and just post a deck list. Opening myself up to constructive criticism is the way to go, so please throw out your opinions.

The Order of the Zenith

--14 Creatures

4x Noble Heirarch
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Progenitus
1x Trygon Predator
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox Warmonk
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Eternal Witness

--25 Spells

4x Natural Order
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce

--21 Lands

3x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strands
4x Tropical Island
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Tundra
1x Savannah

--SB

4x Mindbreak Trap
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Qasali Pridgemage
1x Rhox Warmonk
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

[ivanpei]

@ Valtrix, Interesting, I can see where you are getting at as you prefer to gear for a combo-ish version.

@ Justin, agreed that drawing progenitus sucks. terastodon seems like a good alternate target. I've won against zoo/folk by turning my own lands into 3/3s, giving me 4 blockers and 18 power on the board.

@ Ramirez, I like the list, IMO plows are pretty important too. Am I the only one feeling that way? But other than that, solid list.

I am so itching to get a playset of the zeniths. I cant wait! I want to be rocking these babies for real as soon as possible.