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Thread: Knightaclysm

  1. #21

    Re: Knightaclysm

    I see the flavor going Knights, but I don't really see the synergy or point. If you're going to have nearly all Knights why not just go Knight Exemplar and Day of Judgement ... Vial in your 1cc 2cc Knights like Meadowgrain or Knight of the Holy Nimbus would actually be a great choice with Day. Prophyral Nodes would actually work pretty awesome with Exemplar with the indestructibility, too, and holding off against early rush tribals you'd rape them since you get to choose if tied in power.
    The main point in knights, specifically these knights, is actually deck space and game plan synergy. The main reason no one's playing knights competitively is that while in large numbers (especially with your Day of Judgment game plan) they can hold up very well against aggro, even own it, they get into trouble against combo and slow control - unlike goblins or elves, they're not fast enough to swarm the opponent on turn 2-3. In order to improve MUs with combo and control, we use tutors for things like Rule of Law against combo and we use Cataclysm (also tried Armageddon) against control (and to some extent combo). All these things take up slots and (along with StP et al) push creature count to 20 or less, which weakens our ability to be present on the board in large numbers. Note that the only competitive tribal deck that can work with around 20 creatures is Merfolk, and they've got much, much better synergies with 12-16 lords and counterspell backup to cover against board sweep on top of this.

    With fewer creatures making it to the battlefield, we want what gets down to matter, by itself and without buddies for backup. Knight of the Reliquary seems pretty good at this, and so does Mirran Crusader, with its protection from goyf, rhox war monk, and a bunch of other black and green beaters and blockers. Never mind what an equipped Crusader looks like. Student also does pretty good early game, and if it's unchecked, it can go endgame as well.

    Nodes of Porphyry I've played with and found a bit too slow. Yes, it works well with Exemplar, but that just puts even more pressure on dropping and keeping exemplar, and I'm just not too sure about a deck using a dozen 3-drops in Legacy - unless you want to cut reliquary and/or Crusader. I guess what I'm saying is the Exemplar looks great, and in Standard or Extended it probably is, but there's not enough knights in the 1-2 drop slot that are wow enough to stand on their own. That means that when exemplar comes down, the Zoo opponent just casts PtE/bolt/chain lightning/helix and goes on with the beatdown because their nacatls and apes and goyf are bigger than your 2-drops.

    When I think abusing Cataclysm I'd do it way different, I think of cards like Weathered Wayfarer or splashing red for Greater Gargadon to sacrafice permanents in response to clysm or removal, would also work with Trokair; Wayfarer would help you fetch for any land back in response, including wastes maze etc. Just my 2-cents
    Weathered wayfarer is replaced by Tithe in my deck as a faster way to do what it does, and it does something even when I have more lands than my opponent. Gargadon is less flexible than reliquary, and reliquary pulls out the Boseiju you want against control, and if I play both that mana base is going to need some tweaking to make sure I have red early enough.

  2. #22

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarion View Post

    Nodes of Porphyry I've played with and found a bit too slow. Yes, it works well with Exemplar, but that just puts even more pressure on dropping and keeping exemplar, and I'm just not too sure about a deck using a dozen 3-drops in Legacy - unless you want to cut reliquary and/or Crusader.

    Did you consider using Chrome Mox (maybe instead of Aether Vial) ? It allows you to play all those 3 drops on turn 2 or remove excess 3 drops if you don't need them. Works like a charm under Cataclysm. I don't really know if you have spare cards to put into the Mox often though... I guess this would ask for some Knight of the White Orchid action aswell though and maybe warp the deck into a different direction... which might not be what we want...

  3. #23

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Two View Post
    Did you consider using Chrome Mox (maybe instead of Aether Vial) ? It allows you to play all those 3 drops on turn 2 or remove excess 3 drops if you don't need them. Works like a charm under Cataclysm. I don't really know if you have spare cards to put into the Mox often though... I guess this would ask for some Knight of the White Orchid action aswell though and maybe warp the deck into a different direction... which might not be what we want...
    Hmm, I didtry running mox diamonds once a long time ago, and I might try to revisit the idea, especially since they help the Reliquary in several ways (and I don't have Chrome Moxen). White orchid is actually improved on by the original - tithe. Imagine dropping a Mox Diamond, Tithing for 2 lands, dropping one, all in the first turn. Turn 2 you can drop reliquary at 3/3 or 4/4. AND things like Rule of Law and Ghostly prison can come in turn 2, which is great against combo/swarm. I like! Let's just hope I don't run out of land. :)

  4. #24
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    Re: Knightaclysm

    Flagstones of Trokair: A key card that combos well with Cataclysm and can be abused by Knight of the Reliquary for library thinning and pumping itself.
    Please note that you can't abuse Flagstones with Knight, since you need to sacrifice a plains or a forest.
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  5. #25
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    Please note that you can't abuse Flagstones with Knight, since you need to sacrifice a plains or a forest.
    1. Resolve KotR.
    2. Fetch Flagstones #1.
    3. Fetch Flagstones #2.
    4. ?????
    5. Profit!
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

  6. #26
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    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    1. Resolve KotR.
    2. Fetch Flagstones #1.
    3. Fetch Flagstones #2.
    4. ?????
    5. Profit!
    That works, if that's what the writer meant. Not too superb play, though.
    Some of my friends sell records,
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  7. #27

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    That works, if that's what the writer meant. Not too superb play, though.
    It's sort of what I meant, except that with a full set of Flagstones you usually have 1 down by the time Reliquary comes in. This means you just activate KotR once to give it +3/+3 as opposed to spending 2 turns to give it a total of +4/+4. Not too bad, IMO. :)

  8. #28

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Played a bunch of matches in my local meta. The version without Silver Knight does terribly against Boros. Against combo (storm, elf combo), dropping Rule of Law then Cataclysm is GG practically all the time.

    Against just bout everything, Cataclysm wins you the game if you can cast it.

  9. #29

    Re: Knightaclysm

    i like cataclysm a lot. It kills plainswalkers too, which is enormous.

    anyway, this is the list I've come up with off the top of my head.

    4 cataclysm
    3 armageddon
    2 ravages of war
    1 maze of ith

    4 tithe
    4 path to exile

    4 knight of the white orchard
    4 knight of the reliquary
    4 tarmagoyf
    4 terravore

    4 mox diamond


    4 flagstones of trokair
    4 savannah
    4 windswepth heath
    1 forest
    2 boseiju who shelters all
    7 plains

  10. #30

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by gkraigher View Post
    i like cataclysm a lot. It kills plainswalkers too, which is enormous.

    anyway, this is the list I've come up with off the top of my head.

    4 cataclysm
    3 armageddon
    2 ravages of war
    1 maze of ith

    4 tithe
    4 path to exile

    4 knight of the white orchard
    4 knight of the reliquary
    4 tarmagoyf
    4 terravore

    4 mox diamond


    4 flagstones of trokair
    4 savannah
    4 windswepth heath
    1 forest
    2 boseiju who shelters all
    7 plains
    Thanks! Glad to find someone else who sees the sweeping power Cataclysm has against control. The creature selection looks good - I'd try vore and goyf if I weren't fixated on running knights - but 9 Armageddon effects seems a bit much, especially as aggro and combo decks that outspeed us are the deck's major bane, and these decks get by on 1-2 land or kill by turn 3.

  11. #31

    Re: Knightaclysm

    The latest riff:

    Lands (20):

    6 Plains
    2 Savannah
    2 Arid Mesa
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Flagstones of Trokair
    1 Wasteland
    1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
    1 Ancient Den

    Creatures (15):

    3 Student of Warfare
    3 Silver Knight
    3 Knight of the Reliquary
    3 Mirran Crusader
    3 Stoneforge Mystic

    Instants and Sorceries (13):
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Tithe
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    3 Cataclysm

    Artifacts and Enchantments (10):
    1 Rule of Law
    1 Ghostly Prison
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Basilisk Collar
    3 Mox Diamond

    Planeswalker (2):
    2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

    Sideboard:
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Runed Halo
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Serenity
    2 Ghostly Prison
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    2 Path to Exile

    Some notes:

    With Mental Misstep around, Mox Diamond looks better than Aether Vial, in addition to opening the possibility of a turn 2 Rule of Law/Ghostly Prison. Done on the play, this can mean death for a combo deck/swarm deck respectively.

    Basilisk Collar on a first striker is a thing of beauty.

    Batterskull against aggro is good.

    Elspeth rocks.

    And yes, this deck loathes Qasali Pridemage. :(

  12. #32

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Um, Steppe Lynx is one of the best one drops ever printed. It has obvious Synergy with Flagstones, Cataclysm and Tithe. The only question is to whether you can run him is if you can fit enough fetchlands in the deck (A minimum of 8 is required I have found). Jotun Grunt should be in this deck too since you aren't really abusing the fact creatures are Knights.

    If you are going the Terravore route than you should be running Noble Hierarch to help power out your threats and speed up your clock.

  13. #33

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Iare View Post
    Um, Steppe Lynx is one of the best one drops ever printed. It has obvious Synergy with Flagstones, Cataclysm and Tithe. The only question is to whether you can run him is if you can fit enough fetchlands in the deck (A minimum of 8 is required I have found). Jotun Grunt should be in this deck too since you aren't really abusing the fact creatures are Knights.

    If you are going the Terravore route than you should be running Noble Hierarch to help power out your threats and speed up your clock.
    Thanks for the suggestions. I agree about Steppe Lynx as a good one-drop (why did they ditch it in Zoo, though, just wondering) and on the synergy of Steppe Lynx with Flagstones and Tithe, but Cataclysm? - unless you mean Flagstones + Cata. :) In any case, getting to 4 mana is a bit trickier with lots of sac lands, and between speed and having versatile answers (Cataclysm, Elspeth), I usually go for versatility.

    Your card choices, including Terravore and Noble Hierarch, seem to belong in the fast deck category, and I'm thinking they'd all be good in the same G/W aggro deck. But I usually go for toolbox answers and versatility when designing creature decks unless they pass what I call the Zoo test - can they outspeed Zoo? -if they can't, why not just play Zoo? That's why my creature choices are about creatures that are good on their own as opposed to being really fast or needing certain conditions in order to be good - Steppe Lynx and the need for a fistful of sac lands, Jotun Grunt and Terravore likewise, or at least an opponent also pitching sac lands like crazy. This opposed to Student of Warfare, which just needs a few installments of mana, or SFM, which brings its own toolbox, or KotR, which can grow itself and grab a toolbox besides. Mirran Crusader is happiest with a Jitte or Sword, but he's actually fine even without.

    The only exception here is Silver Knight, which is admittedly a bit subpar, and yeah, he looks like he's best replaced with Jotun Grunt in a Goyf/Dredge-happy environment, or with Pridemage against a control-heavy or equipment-heavy field. Right now he's in there against burn and goblins, and he makes it safer for my other critters when playing against Zoo by drawing out the white removal.

  14. #34

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarion View Post
    Thanks for the suggestions. I agree about Steppe Lynx as a good one-drop (why did they ditch it in Zoo, though, just wondering) and on the synergy of Steppe Lynx with Flagstones and Tithe, but Cataclysm? - unless you mean Flagstones + Cata. :) In any case, getting to 4 mana is a bit trickier with lots of sac lands, and between speed and having versatile answers (Cataclysm, Elspeth), I usually go for versatility.

    Your card choices, including Terravore and Noble Hierarch, seem to belong in the fast deck category, and I'm thinking they'd all be good in the same G/W aggro deck. But I usually go for toolbox answers and versatility when designing creature decks unless they pass what I call the Zoo test - can they outspeed Zoo? -if they can't, why not just play Zoo? That's why my creature choices are about creatures that are good on their own as opposed to being really fast or needing certain conditions in order to be good - Steppe Lynx and the need for a fistful of sac lands, Jotun Grunt and Terravore likewise, or at least an opponent also pitching sac lands like crazy. This opposed to Student of Warfare, which just needs a few installments of mana, or SFM, which brings its own toolbox, or KotR, which can grow itself and grab a toolbox besides. Mirran Crusader is happiest with a Jitte or Sword, but he's actually fine even without.

    The only exception here is Silver Knight, which is admittedly a bit subpar, and yeah, he looks like he's best replaced with Jotun Grunt in a Goyf/Dredge-happy environment, or with Pridemage against a control-heavy or equipment-heavy field. Right now he's in there against burn and goblins, and he makes it safer for my other critters when playing against Zoo by drawing out the white removal.
    Steppe Lynx can be a very bad topdeck and sometimes inconsistent, seeing as it requires a land drop to be useful. It is also extremely powerful and better than many people seem to think. All you really need to get out of him is 6 damage for him to be as good/better than any other 1 drop in the format. He is still used in fast Zoo lists that are full of burn and their best first turn play. You sometimes need to recover after a cataclysm and he will help by being cheap, same with Jotun Grunt ;)

    Jotun Grunt helps shrink goyf's, comes down early, is a giant wall the first turn he comes into play, shrinks opposing knight's of the reliquary, messes with dredge, painterstone can't win without removing your graveyard if he is on the table, cataclysm will help keep him around (Either pre cat or afterwards) and well he is a 4/4 for 2. You should never run more than 3 but you should really consider running them.

    If you want to go really techy you could try fitting in a few crucibles and go with a wastelock plan against slow control.

  15. #35

    Re: Knightaclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Iare View Post
    Steppe Lynx can be a very bad topdeck and sometimes inconsistent, seeing as it requires a land drop to be useful. It is also extremely powerful and better than many people seem to think. All you really need to get out of him is 6 damage for him to be as good/better than any other 1 drop in the format. He is still used in fast Zoo lists that are full of burn and their best first turn play. You sometimes need to recover after a cataclysm and he will help by being cheap, same with Jotun Grunt ;)

    Jotun Grunt helps shrink goyf's, comes down early, is a giant wall the first turn he comes into play, shrinks opposing knight's of the reliquary, messes with dredge, painterstone can't win without removing your graveyard if he is on the table, cataclysm will help keep him around (Either pre cat or afterwards) and well he is a 4/4 for 2. You should never run more than 3 but you should really consider running them.

    If you want to go really techy you could try fitting in a few crucibles and go with a wastelock plan against slow control.
    Congratulations, you just sold me on a trio of Grunts. Lynx I still think should be in another deck - between Tithes, Moxen, and Flagstones, I usually have 2-3 mana open the turn after Cata, sometimes even 4, so the 1-drop post-cata is not such a draw for me. And I don't have the burn to provide the reach I need to take advantage of the Lynx's explosiveness.

    So I'm marching my trio of Silver Knights out of there and sleeving up some Grunts. My only worry going in is that their upkeep means they're not exactly something you can always drop on the table turn 2.

    About the wastelock plan, I did try that before, but I either played it badly or undercommitted to it - I used 1 Crucible and 1 Wasteland, for fetching with the tutors and KotR. Most of the time I needed to tutor for something else, and whenever I had it there always seemed to be a better use for my mana. All in all, it looks like it needs a higher commitment for ? improvement - my current build can use an early Mox Diamond to deliver a turn 4 kill with either Mirran Crusader and SFM/Jitte or Mirran Crusader and Elspeth. If those are disrupted, a long game usually means I have the time to set up Boseiju + Cata.

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