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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

  1. #3581

    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    As a 1 of? I've been trying out a couple Mutavaults MD as well....hmmm

    Lands does seem to be the one place where we can improve slightly in this deck...esp with monored

  2. #3582
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by namrufmot View Post
    As a 1 of? I've been trying out a couple Mutavaults MD as well....hmmm

    Lands does seem to be the one place where we can improve slightly in this deck...esp with monored
    The best thing about mono red is its wasteland resistant mana base to fuel out this mana guzzling deck

  3. #3583

    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Monored typically plays 8 nonbasic lands anyway - 4 Caverns and 4 Wastes.

    Wastes are becoming less useful in Legacy since many decks and operate on 2-3 lands anyway (Thresh, RUG, SnT, Zoo, etc).

    Only in that rare case when your opp gets severly mana-screwed do you want to use Waste. It often hate to use my Wastes because I find it sets me back a turn early game when I'd prefer to be applying pressure - you're right gobbos are mana hungry.

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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by namrufmot View Post
    Monored typically plays 8 nonbasic lands anyway - 4 Caverns and 4 Wastes.

    Wastes are becoming less useful in Legacy since many decks and operate on 2-3 lands anyway (Thresh, RUG, SnT, Zoo, etc).

    Only in that rare case when your opp gets severly mana-screwed do you want to use Waste. It often hate to use my Wastes because I find it sets me back a turn early game when I'd prefer to be applying pressure - you're right gobbos are mana hungry.
    So what did you want to tell us. Did you want to say, that Tower or Mutavaults are bad, because they could be nonbasics #9 to #10?

    My question was not, how many nonbasics normally we gonna play. My question was, if someone has tested the Tower.

    Furthermore you are wrong. You can play more than 8 nonbasics. That is the core, but some players sway f.e. of #2 Ports and do well with them.

    But you're absolutely right: We have to use wastelands deliberated because we need much mana in our deck

    So I will test them, because they can be the autowin against Esper (Stoneblade) wven if they don't play wastes.

  5. #3585

    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    I was saying that I'd rather play the Tower, Mutavaults, or other utility land OVER Wastelands.

    If an opponent Wastes our Caverns (as they are likely to do), do you really want to use YOUR Wastes on their lands? We'd be so far behind the mana curve we'd neer be able to cast 2-3 gobbos per turn.

  6. #3586
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by namrufmot View Post
    I was saying that I'd rather play the Tower, Mutavaults, or other utility land OVER Wastelands.

    If an opponent Wastes our Caverns (as they are likely to do), do you really want to use YOUR Wastes on their lands? We'd be so far behind the mana curve we'd neer be able to cast 2-3 gobbos per turn.
    Man, Wasteland is one of the best cards in Legacy. It steals wins out of nowhere, and punish people for keeping bad hands. I'm sure you would want to waste Gaea's Cradle, Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale more than casting 1~2 more goblins.

    Moreover, it's a REALLY GOOD card against the top deck (RUG Delver) and has a nice utility against any archtype.

    If you want to hardcast dudes, just play Elves. Manadenial was and still is a very important part of Goblins strategy.
    Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return

  7. #3587
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Played in a 4 round tourney today. Went 3-1. The deck performed awesomely (it's a real word, I swear). I ran the decklist that I've been working on that's a compilation of the highest performing Goblin decks averaged togather (AKA, add up the total number of all the separate cards from all the different Goblins decks that have top 8'd or had strong showings in large tourneys [100+ players], then divide those by the total number of decklists you aggregated, and Voila, and averaged decklist). Here's the averaged decklist and sideboard I ran...

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Pyrokinesis
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    2 Rishadan Port
    6 Mountain
    5 fetchlands
    1 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard
    2 Chalice of the Void
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Pyrokinesis
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Gilded Drake
    1 Goblin King

    R1 - Belcher
    G1 I was on the play and kept a 1-lander (Port) with 2 Vials and an excellent curve. It was looking pretty good, then my opponent T2 Belched me. Sigh. I actually made a huge mistake by scooping as soon as he Belched. He was on Rgb Belcher, so there's a chance he was running Bayou and would have fizzled. Should have made him reveal to lethal, but I didn't. That's the weird thing about playing in casual tourneys. You tend to let your guard down too easily.
    G2 I sided out 2 Vials and 2 Gempalms for 2 Chalices and 2 Pyrokinesises. I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Chalice. I T1'd Chalice 2 0 and my opponent scooped.
    G3 I sided out the last 2 Vials for Faerie Macabre and Surgical Extraction. They were just better than Vial at that point. I mulled to 6 on the draw and kept a hand with Lackey, Lackey, Pyrokinesis, 3 Lands. My opponent made 14 Gobbos T1. I topdecked a second Pyrokinesis and removed the Lackeys to clear 8 gobbo tokens off the board, then played a land. Took 6. I played another land. Took another 6 (8 life now) Next turn I cracked a fetch and played (7 life) a Mogg War Marshall. Took 4 (3 life, only 4 Goblin tokens on my opponent's board. I played a Ringleader. Took 2 (1 life). I then played another Mogg War Marshall and started going on the attack with Ringleader. He had rebuilt his hand at this point and dumped a billion new gobbos onto the board. I hit a few too many lands and wasn't able to get a Sharpshooter in play.
    So I picked up a loss, but it was a well fought game and I came pretty close in a generally unwinnable MU.
    0-1

    R2 Bye
    Dammit

    R3 - Bant
    G1 He was a little low on lands. I resolved a Krenko off of Vial. He cracked a fetchland with an active KotR so I activated Krenko in response to the fetch and made like 4 goblins, then Gempalmed his KotR before the fetch resolved. He Scooped.
    G2 - Very much like G1. Resolved a Krenko and smashed. 4 pieces of spot removal = good MU.
    2-1

    R4 - RUG Delver
    G1 Before we start playing my opponent talks about how bad the Goblin MU is. Which is funny because I've always thought RUG Delver is a terrible MU. Well, only one of us could be right. After a grindy game where he neglected to Force my Vial I resolved a Krenko and took it over.
    G2 I sided in 2 Pyrokinesises, Surgical Extraction (heard the players in the RUG Delver mirror during the prior round talk about Wasting and extracting one of the duals to shut down R or G from the deck), and 2 Relics, sided out 4 Piledrivers and a Sharpshooter. He played a T1 Tropical and passed. I played a T1 Cavern and Lackey. He played a T2 Goyf. I T2 Pyro'd it, and connected with Lackey but had nothing to put into play off of it. This game was gonna be a grind. I took a bunch of Delver hits but stabilized with Mogg War Marshal and used some creative blocking and well-timed Gempalms to kill off his Goyfs and Delvers. I landed a Seige Gang Commander and took the game over with a Krenko. Here's the thing about RUG Delver: They only run 4 Bolts these days. They're running more Fire // Ice and Forked Bolt, so they actually have limited options for dealing with a resolved Krenko. And a resolved Krenko will win the game for you. After being beaten down to 7 life I took over the game and won. Felt good.
    3-1

    The day felt pretty good. The only thing I would want to change about the deck is that a second Krenko might be necessary, if only because it is so fucking powerful. You could easily replace Chieftain, Tuktuk, or Pyrokinesis from the MD for a 2nd Krenko. 1 was enough today, but tomorrow having a second might be the way to go.

  8. #3588
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Reporting back from the PLS in Haddon, New Jersey. I got in without having to pay the $30 entry because I top 8'd here. After 7 rounds of swiss and the top 8, I walked away with play sets of Underground Seas and Plateaus! It was a 79 player event and my largest Legacy tournament to date.

    My 75 were inspired by Brad Campbell's list from Gen Con which placed 4th of 350 a week ago. My changes were scribbled on the way to the event on the list I printed. I took the following 75:

    4 Mountain
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothill
    1 Arid Mesa
    1 Taiga
    -
    22 Lands

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Skirk Prospector
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Tin Street Holligan
    -
    4 Artifacts, 34 Goblins

    Sideboard
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Pyrokinesis
    3 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Tin Street Hooligan

    Round 1 - Matt with RUG Delver 2-0
    He was playing with Stifle and Grim Lavamancer. Having removal and getting 3 off of Ringleader won this.
    Out: Krenko, Tin Street
    In: 2 Relics
    He lands Lavamancer turn 1. I play Vial. I refuse to play anything while keeping him off mana first with 1 port, then a 2nd. Once Vial hit 3 I unloaded and overwhelmed.
    Win

    Round 2 - Robert with Maverick 1-2
    I'm on the play and get 2 colorless lands. Mull to a hand with no lands. Kept Mountain, Aether Vial, Tin Street Hooligan, Goblin Warchief, Cavern of Souls. TSH destroyed a Jitte before Warchief was Vialed in. I thought I stablized with SCG but tricks with Scryb Ranger and Mother of Runes put me too far behind.
    Out: 3 Piledriver, 2 Gempalm
    In: 3 Kinesis, TSH, Sharpshooter
    Game 2 he scoops to the swarm.
    Game 3 he has removal for all my guys and blows up my Vials.
    Loss
    He eventually makes it into the top 8

    Round 3 - Truongg with Nic-Fit 2-0
    He was not running Birthing Pod. He leads with Veteran Explorer, I with Lackey. I gladly trade with him during my next attack step and play Ringleader which drowned him in card advantage.
    Out: Vial, Stingscourger, MWM
    In: 2 Cage, TSH (still thought Pod was played in this...)
    We each mull to 5. Goblins 5 is better than most decks 5.
    Win

    Round 4 - Brad with Aggro Loam 2-0
    I recognize him from the local Legacy scene. He wins the die roll. I establish a clock but didn't write notes. That usually means mana denial got me there.
    Again, no notes on sideboarding.
    He mulls to 5 and keeps a hand with 'comes into play tapped' cycle lands which he has to play. I lead with Lackey. Connect and drop SCG, play Piledriver. Next turn attack for 17 and throw a chump.
    Win

    Round 5 - Brandon with Affinity 2-0
    He put me on a slow deck and kept a slow hand. I was on the play and led with Lackey. Next turn was Wasteland and Goblins. I think I naturally drew TSH which destroyed a Cranial Plating.
    No sideboarding notes
    Game 2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas made Ornithopter a 5/5. Signal Pest gave it the 6 he needed to finish me.
    Game 3 he mulled to 6 and I overran him. Pyrokinesis helped here.
    Win

    Round 6 - Tim with Sneak Show 2-1
    I had dodged Show and Tell all day. I had played last week against Omniscience and that shit is nuts. He was also anxious being this close to drawing in. He wins game one by doing something broken... it doesn't really matter what.
    out: 4 Aether Vial, TSH
    In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
    He durdles with cantrips and my clock is too quick! Sideboarding didn't do anything here, just good oldfashioned goblin swarms. I was holding REB the whole game though, leaving available.
    Game 3 I mull to 6 and he's on the play... Great. As the game proceeds I have Wasteland for his Ancient Tomb and Port for his City of Traitors. I get there!
    Win

    Round 7 - Blake with ??
    We both make it into the top 8. I find out he is on Miracle.
    I place 7th of 79 after 7 rounds of swiss.

    Top 8
    Round 8 - Greg with RUG Delver
    I walk into Daze enough that he comments on how much I enjoy doing it during game 2. He gets this game.
    Game 2 he mulls to 6. He sees I'm playing fetchlands. Vial sticks and gets too many guys on the board.
    Game 3 he leads with a cantrip. I play a mountain and pass, commenting on how I've walked into daze enough this round. Second turn I play a fetchland and it's Stifled! He boarded them in game 3. I play Vial with my land from last turn and it's dazed... Next turn it's more of the same. Fetchland is stifled and Lackey is dazed. Fortunately his disruptive hand had no gas and he didn't draw into any. His buddy told me he boarded 2 Mongoose out to make room for the Stifles.
    Win

    Round 9 - Eric with Show and Tell 2-1
    He plays Omniscience turn 2 and wins.
    Out: 3 Aether Vials, TSH, Sharpshooter
    In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
    Game 2 he shows Griselbrand, I show Matron which gets me Stingscourger. He draws 7 before returning Grizz but Goblins overwhelmed.
    Game 3 we each mull to 6. He has to take a chance and Intuitions for Show and Tell. I'm holding 2 Stingscourgers. He tries to draw into an out but can't.
    Win

    Final Round
    Round 10 - Josh with RUG Delver
    We agree that getting either 1st or 2nd is good and play for the top spot. He is playing with Lavamancers. I mull to 6 but keep him off by wasting the land he intended to cantrip into victory with. His only other land was a Wasteland which didn't do much against my mountains.
    Out: TSH, 2 other things...
    In: 3 Relics
    He burns away creatures and gets a clock established early.
    Game 3 I'm on the play and he mulls to 5. He puts up a good fight but draws a Daze when he needed a land to play and equip Jitte to have a chance at stablizing.


    For me this was a return to the more traditional style of Goblins. I generally prefer more Chieftains and WInstigators and had stopped playing with Port till today. TSH was good. I had never tested it before but it is good when you need it (which is early). Mostly I was impressed with how Goblins just did it's thing. I frequently boarded in 3-4 cards which I never saw and won due to mana disruption or overwhelming the board.

    Kuddos to Nick and the guys at Top Deck Games for a great event. I had a blast. Thanks to the other local stores involved in the PLS for generating more local Legacy tournaments recently.

  9. #3589
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Congrats to you both.

    Some questions for Ace:

    I noticed you also play one Krenko, like Jrw1985. Do you also going to two or do you think one is enough. And did you ever had problems casting TSH, because of Warchief?

    And a second Sharpshooter? Could you tell me why? I can see you boarded in against Maverick.

    Again congrats with your finish!

    Cheerio
    Last edited by Chatto; 08-26-2012 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Stupid question

  10. #3590
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Round 3 - Truongg with Nic-Fit 2-0
    He was not running Birthing Pod. He leads with Veteran Explorer, I with Lackey. I gladly trade with him during my next attack step and play Ringleader which drowned him in card advantage.
    Out: Vial, Stingscourger, MWM
    In: 2 Cage, TSH (still thought Pod was played in this...)
    We each mull to 5. Goblins 5 is better than most decks 5.
    Win


    [...]


    Round 6 - Tim with Sneak Show 2-1
    I had dodged Show and Tell all day. I had played last week against Omniscience and that shit is nuts. He was also anxious being this close to drawing in. He wins game one by doing something broken... it doesn't really matter what.
    out: 4 Aether Vial, TSH
    In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
    He durdles with cantrips and my clock is too quick! Sideboarding didn't do anything here, just good oldfashioned goblin swarms. I was holding REB the whole game though, leaving available.
    Game 3 I mull to 6 and he's on the play... Great. As the game proceeds I have Wasteland for his Ancient Tomb and Port for his City of Traitors. I get there!
    Win


    [...]


    Round 9 - Eric with Show and Tell 2-1
    He plays Omniscience turn 2 and wins.
    Out: 3 Aether Vials, TSH, Sharpshooter
    In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
    Game 2 he shows Griselbrand, I show Matron which gets me Stingscourger. He draws 7 before returning Grizz but Goblins overwhelmed.
    Game 3 we each mull to 6. He has to take a chance and Intuitions for Show and Tell. I'm holding 2 Stingscourgers. He tries to draw into an out but can't.
    Win.
    I'm really courious about your explanations on your sideboarding for those MUs.

    Why did you side OUT Stingerscourger vs. NicFit? I totally love him here because he (1) timewalks their Veteran Explorer and (2) can bounce their fatties (including Scavenging Ooze with 10+ counters.

    AND

    Why did you side OUT Aether Vials and not Gempalm Incinerator vs Show & Tell decks? I can't help myself but GI seems to be a dead card here, while Aether Vial can be left @ 2 or 3 to enable Matron --> Stingscourger stuff in response to Show and Tell.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  11. #3591
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Final Round
    Round 10 - Josh with RUG Delver
    We agree that getting either 1st or 2nd is good and play for the top spot. He is playing with Lavamancers. I mull to 6 but keep him off by wasting the land he intended to cantrip into victory with. His only other land was a Wasteland which didn't do much against my mountains.
    Out: TSH, 2 other things...
    In: 3 Relics
    He burns away creatures and gets a clock established early.
    Game 3 I'm on the play and he mulls to 5. He puts up a good fight but draws a Daze when he needed a land to play and equip Jitte to have a chance at stablizing.
    He boarded Jitte against you? What an asshole! An active Jitte would be awful in the RUG Delver MU. Artifact hate is usually the first thing I side out against that deck. Jitte does seem like a bit of a shit show though, just cause they need 4 mana to play and attach it (which seems rough for that deck) and they run Mongoose which is attach-proof. I guess if you draw enough spot removal there's no problem with them boarding out spells that will do something for a Jitte that might just sit there. Still, I've offically got another thing to worry about against them...

    Congrats on your big win, Ace! In the future I would suggest leaving Krenko sided in against RUG Delver. They're only running 4 Bolts as answers these days and they'll drown in the CA of an active Krenko as much as any other deck that plays fair.

    As one who has played Winstigator for a long time, let me say that I am a convert to the ways of the Mogg War Marshal. That card was hugely helpful at my last tourney, and really gave me time to get some other things going.

  12. #3592
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Reporting back from the PLS in Haddon, New Jersey.

    Kuddos to Nick and the guys at Top Deck Games for a great event. I had a blast. Thanks to the other local stores involved in the PLS for generating more local Legacy tournaments recently.
    Holy crap, you got first? Congrats!!
    Matt Bevenour in real life

  13. #3593
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    @Cleston - I have a friend in school for statistics and his #'s regarding Leyline %s were close enough to yours that I owe you an apology!

    @Chatto - 1 Krenko was enough for me yesterday although I used 3 a month before and was thrilled with them. I was using 7 haste lords and 4 WInstigators in that build though. 1 (maybe 2) is probably the correct number.
    The Shooter in the board could have been something else. I never played any Blade decks which I believe it was intended for.

    @GoboLord - I haven't extensively tested against Nic-Fit. I hadn't seen an Ooze although it makes sense that they'd play it. In my limited experience I'd rather kill Explorer on my terms than bounce it so I get first use of the extra mana. I remember now that he tapped out for a Deed while I had a Warchief and something else in play. I played a SGC and forced him to pop it for 0 or die that turn. It bought him 1 turn.
    Game 1 against my first S+T deck I kept a hand with SGC, MWM, and a Gempalm with other stuff. He showed Grizz and I the SGC. My turn I played MWM and was close to killing Grizz with the Gempalm if I had gotten another turn. I boarded out Vial because I deemed them too slow to matter. If I'm holding Stingscourger and he S+T's then I don't need the vial protection anyway. That was my thinking at least.

    @JRW - Thanks man! I tried siding out a variety of cards against RUG. I saw it 3 times and attribute the wins to practice and patience. I focused and made good plays like attacking before casting the goblins I wanted to stick around so they would use their bolts on the guys I did not care about. RUG players definitely keep risky hands knowing that they only need 2 to function. If you catch them when they do this, Wasteland and Port can set them back too far to recover.

    @Tammit - Thanks Matt!

  14. #3594

    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Ace, I notice there are no removal spells like Pyros or Tarfires. id you ever find yourself wanting more creature removal?

  15. #3595
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    If I did, I would board in Pyrokinesis games 2/3. I don't believe I ever added more than 2. Chieftain was used a few times to make my guys bigger than the opponents blockers. Siege-Gang made all my guys removal a few times as well. I was comfortable with trading when necessary and felt the amount of removal was appropriate.

  16. #3596

    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Couple more questions...

    With so many fetches...did that 2-3 life points ever come back to bite you in the ass?

    Did you ever lack enough red mana? I'm thinking about running the deck but with only 2 Ports and more red mana.

    Did anyone ever Waste your Taiga? Would you fetch for the Taiga right away?

  17. #3597
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Tom right?
    No, never. The only downside to fetchlands is exposing yourself to Stifle.
    Red was never a problem. I essentially ran 14 red sources.
    Like rabrab said in an earlier post, you keep your dual land in the deck for as long as possible before you actually need it.

  18. #3598

    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Thanks again...next question because I'm very interested in how "old-school" your build was.

    How did you the Prospector? As a sac engine for the Sharpshooter? With the Moggs spitting out tokens I can envision you saccing them to the Shooter for the fatal last 3-4 damage.

  19. #3599

    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    My friend and I just had a new (cool or lame?) idea for the mana base. We really like the idea using the Hooligan and Wort Boggart Auntie (a Gempalm, Mogg, or Sting every turn!?) and since neither of us have a full set of Taigas/Badlands were were looking at something like this:

    4 Caverns
    3 Ancient Ziggurats
    4 Wastelands
    7 Mountains
    4 Fetches

    In essence that gives us 7 lands to cast either the Hooligan or Wort...and in early testing this has never been a problem. And since we don't MD any spells aside from Vials, the drawbacks shouldn't be a problem.

    Anyone ever fully test something like this?

  20. #3600
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    Re: [DTB] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by namrufmot View Post
    My friend and I just had a new (cool or lame?) idea for the mana base. We really like the idea using the Hooligan and Wort Boggart Auntie (a Gempalm, Mogg, or Sting every turn!?) and since neither of us have a full set of Taigas/Badlands were were looking at something like this:

    4 Caverns
    3 Ancient Ziggurats
    4 Wastelands
    7 Mountains
    4 Fetches

    In essence that gives us 7 lands to cast either the Hooligan or Wort...and in early testing this has never been a problem. And since we don't MD any spells aside from Vials, the drawbacks shouldn't be a problem.

    Anyone ever fully test something like this?
    11 lands that add R For gempal seem to few. 13 would be the minimun i'D play.
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