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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

  1. #5781
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    My new work blocks the Souce but for some reason allows me to view mtgsalvation. So I started reading their thread but had to stop after a poster had to point out to another poster that vial at 4 plus ringleader is a good combo.

    In magic-related news I've gone 0-4 over my last two weeklies. It's pretty much just variance. 2 of those matches would have been improved with Leyline of the Void (Nic Fit and Zombies), so I may have to start siding that POS again.

  2. #5782

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Hey. I'm looking into possible building Goblins and I was wondering why it hasn't been performing well at larger tournaments.

  3. #5783
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    I suppose the main reason is that few people play goblins. It has been played since legacy was born and now people are a bit bored :) another reason is that goblins is a meta-deck... you can't win if you play against a lot of combo decks, while you are likely to stomp any blue deck with countermagics and have a little advantage vs aggro.
    Playing goblins mean that you like goblins. Aniway, this deck is still alive after 10 years (more or less) of legacy, so if you'll never make a mistake if you build it. And it is a lot of fun to play with the little green men.

  4. #5784
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    Quote Originally Posted by DredgingLoam View Post
    Hey. I'm looking into possible building Goblins and I was wondering why it hasn't been performing well at larger tournaments.
    It has a ridiculously high mana curve, a surprisingly janky mana base, DRS and Abrupt Decay give it conniptions, and it loses to combo decks. It's nowhere near the best deck in the format, so not many folks play it. And it's super easy to hate out when it is popular (E Plague).

    That being said, it is super fun to play.

  5. #5785
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Finally got a chance to play again.
    A lgs made a tournament, and since it wasn't that big, I decided to went with something fun.
    Been toying around with the idea for a while, and got to put it into test, so here's what I played:

    UNDEAD GOBLINS
    4 Badlands
    2 Auntie's Hovel
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Urborg, Tomb of yaghmeiioemfnjth
    4 Mountain
    4 Rishadan Port

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Goblin Warchief

    4 Mogg Warmarchall

    1 Goblin Sharpshoter
    1 Skirk Prospector
    1 Goblin Piledriver
    2 Siege-Gang Commander

    2 Stingscourger
    3 Gempalm Incinerator

    3 Living Death

    Sideboard:
    1 Living Death
    3 Pyrokinesis

    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 CotV
    1 Pyroblast

    2 Boggart Shenannigans
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper

    Living Death it's a hell of a fun card to play with. When you cast it in any grindy matchup, you usually win, and it's nice to have a 'oops, I win' button. 4 MWM to bring back, to use Prospector+SGC+Sharpshooter to combo kill someone is awesome.
    The weird card on the SB is Boggart Shenannigans, and is there in place of Boartusk Liege as my card against Plague. Make all your dudes die, cast Living Death, they come back, and die again, and so does your opponent. Not saying it is a great plan, but fun as hell if works. So, let's go to what happened:

    Match 1 - Reanimator
    Game 1: I play first: Caverns Lackey. He plays fetch, Petal, Entomb, Reanimate on Iona. hm... I play Vial. He hits. I draw nothing,attack, and drop Warchief, with Piledriver on my hand. He swings. I draw nothing. I Port his fetch, and he lets it. if he cracked it, he'd die to Pilly. crap. 11 cards would win me the game on those 2 draws. oh well.

    Side: +3 Therapy, +2 CotV, +1 Pyro, -3 Gempalm, -1 Shooter, -1 Ringleader, -1 Living Death

    Game 2: I keep a T3 kill, and decided to go for it. He dies.

    Side: -2 Living Death, +2 Trap.

    Game 3: I Therapy only to see Sphinx and lands. He reanimates it 2 turns later. Sweet.
    0-1

    Match 2 - Merfolk
    Game 1: He FoWs Lackey, plays Vial, and I play Vial. He plays 2 lords, Coralhelm, and 4 Mutavaults. Meanwhile, I block a lot, and got emptyhanded with Warchief on the table. I decided to up Vial to 4, and draw what? Of course, Ringleader, which gets me 4 goblins, which are enough to put me ahead with a Gempalm and Sharpshooter.

    Side: +3 Kinesis, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Scrapper, -3 Living Death, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Prospector.

    Game 2: Spreading Seas makes me have Islands, so even tohugh I have MWM to blocks, his 6 Lords swimn past them...

    Game 3: I keep: 2x Ringleader, Warchief, Stingscourger, Lackey, Pyroblast, Mountain. Would you? Lackey connects trough a blocker, and I draw 2 lands in a row for an easy win.
    1-1

    Match 3 - Nic Fit
    Game 1: It's boring. He therapies a dude, and Veteran gets us lands. but neither he or me have anything. Lackey connects twice without getting me anything. But then I draw a SGC and he dies 2 turns later.

    Side: +1 Living Death, +2 Shenannigans, -2 Vial, -1 MWM.

    Game 2: He plays Veteran Explorer. I play land. He plays Phyrexian Tower, sac Veteran, plays Veteran, plays Natural Order > Progenitus, and passes. I play my 5th land, and cast LIVING DEATH! fuck yeah! Even tohugh he played a 2nd Natural Order on his next turn, and I didn't find another Living Wish, it was worth a whole lot of laughs.

    Game 3: I go down to 5, and play land+Vial. He plays shaman, then Pernicious Deed. I miss 3-4 landdrops in a row. When Vial is @3 he blows Deed. I search for Prospector with a Matron, draw land and play him. He does some stuff and plays a Heremit. I draw a 3rd land, look at my hand, look at my board (had 2 more goblins now) and sac them all to play a Living Death, bringging back Propector, Matron, Gempalm, and something else, and go for Boggart Shenannigans! He unfortunately plays Plague before I cast it. The fun thing is that next turn he wanted to play Liliana to kill my Warchief, but if he did that, Shenanigans would kill Lilliana! fun times. Well, the games goes on a little, and he finds Recurring Nightmare. I find another Living Death, that deals 7 dmg to him, gets me Warchief, a matron trigger, 2 Sting bounces, and a Piledriver. He almost dies, but Deed my team next turn, then search for the 5/3 beast that gains him 5 life, and start recurring it. I can't come back from that with another Plague on the table.
    1-2

    Match 3 - Lands
    Game 1: He starts super slow, and so do I. Vial helps, but 2 Ports slow me down a lot, while Tabernacle kills my creatures. Unfortunately for him I get a lot of gas before he can start his engine, and haste>Tabernacle.

    Side: +1 Living Death, +1 Scrapper, +2 CotV, +2 Shennanigans, -3 Gempalm, -2 Sting, -1 MWM.

    Game 2: I keep 2 Vials. He destroys all my lands, but Scrapper destroys his Crucible, and stop his engine for some turns, while P.Fire kills my dudes (had 2 MWM, Tuktuk, 2 Ringleaders). I draw land, but don't play it, and next turn draw a Matron, that Vial in to get Prospector, to sac some dudes to play BOGGART SHENNANIGANS. He kills prospector in response. I keep swinging, and he keeps killing my dudes and being pinged. On a crucial turn, he finds Loam, and start recurring lands, getting 4 life a turn (went to 2 twice before this, and was going to be out of lands to sac next turn), and eventually finds a Chasm to lock me.

    Game 3: Lackey connects, and a 2nd Lackey joins to put 2 Ringleaders into play, then a SGC, while with only 2 lands. He dredges Loam twice, but don't find Chasm/Tabernacle (1 turn too late) and is buried. A fun thing is that he cast Tormord's Crypt this game. Nice to see Living Death making my opponent's deck worse only by being on my deck.
    2-2

    I then concede to him because he's a frine, and I needed to go home.
    The deck is a blast to play. Living Death turns games around that easily, and despite my results, I was the guy who had most fun in that tournamente (along with my last 2 opponents, because you just can't crack a laugh if Boggart Shannenigans shows up!)
    That said, it is still much suboptimal. The deck needs a lot of cards on the MD to work, and squeezing them in is tough. Right now I needed at least a Chieftain, a Krenko, a Weridings, and maybe a 2nd Prospector, and have no idea what to cut. Playing without Wastelands (because of the curve) is not that great too...

    That's it. Just needed to share this crazy idea. If someone ever try this out (which I doubt), let me know.
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  6. #5786
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    Question:

    Is Wasteland still a good card?

    At SCG St. Louis 6/8 of the top 8 ran FEWER than 20 lands. Since the curve has gotten so low is it even worth it anymore to trade land drops? Or is killing utility lands still important?

  7. #5787
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    I draw a 3rd land, look at my hand, look at my board (had 2 more goblins now) and sac them all to play a Living Death, bringging back Propector, Matron, Gempalm, and something else, and go for Boggart Shenannigans! He unfortunately plays Plague before I cast it.
    Told ya!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    If someone ever try this out (which I doubt), let me know.
    I'm still pondering if I should try it next sunday. Maybe I'm in the mood to make people laugh, too
    Nice writing, thanks for that.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

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  8. #5788
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Why run Living death over Bidding?
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  9. #5789
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Why run Living death over Bidding?
    To kill opponents creatures (like Progenitus).
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  10. #5790
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Hello, I'm just wondering what splash I shoulld play at an scg open. I can play rw, rg, mono r or rwg goblins. Which would be optimal and why?

  11. #5791
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by goblinsplayer View Post
    Hello, I'm just wondering what splash I shoulld play at an scg open. I can play rw, rg, mono r or rwg goblins. Which would be optimal and why?
    I would start with the metagame.
    Which decks do you expect to face? What does your MD look like? Which cards are "set in stone", which cards arn't?
    Are there certain decks that you expect to face, although they arn't popular yet? (i.e. can you see a trend)?
    What do you think are bad MUs and why?

    If you can answer those questions you can go for deckbuilding. After that, you can choose cards that fit in your deck and are good in the local meta. The manafixing (or: which splashcolors you want to run) should be the last step.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  12. #5792

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Question:

    Is Wasteland still a good card?

    At SCG St. Louis 6/8 of the top 8 ran FEWER than 20 lands. Since the curve has gotten so low is it even worth it anymore to trade land drops? Or is killing utility lands still important?

    It will be worth it for as long as there is a Legacy format in which to play it. Cutting them would significantly weaken that angle of attack for which Goblins is infamous for. That being said, Rishadan Port is not in it's happy place in a metagame full of combo decks. I would skim on that first before setting my eyes on Wasteland.

    Ghost Quarter might be slightly more interesting then Port at this point, since it works as a Strip Mine in a lot of matchups and can randomly hose Brainstorm stacks (this is probably quite nice when some form of hand disruption is also involved).

  13. #5793
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Question:

    Is Wasteland still a good card?
    In the format? Absolutely. In blue based Tempo decks, not playing Wasteland would be like saying no thanks to free wins.

    In Goblins? Not sure. Goblins really need to play more than two or three lands, more so than most decks the format. And Goblins has no cantrips to dig for Wasteland when needed, or dig past them when they are unwanted, so it is more random that way. And being more vulnerable to Wasteland yourself is kind of a big deal in Goblins. I would even say that Goblins is not the best deck to take full advantage of Wasteland. That doesn't mean it isn't a good card for Goblins. But having played Goblins without Wasteland and liking the increase in stability and speed, I no longer regard Wasteland as auto-include.

  14. #5794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hof View Post
    In the format? Absolutely. In blue based Tempo decks, not playing Wasteland would be like saying no thanks to free wins.

    In Goblins? Not sure. Goblins really need to play more than two or three lands, more so than most decks the format. And Goblins has no cantrips to dig for Wasteland when needed, or dig past them when they are unwanted, so it is more random that way. And being more vulnerable to Wasteland yourself is kind of a big deal in Goblins. I would even say that Goblins is not the best deck to take full advantage of Wasteland. That doesn't mean it isn't a good card for Goblins. But having played Goblins without Wasteland and liking the increase in stability and speed, I no longer regard Wasteland as auto-include.
    Yeah, I wonder about whether it should be played anymore. It's not great against DRS. It was never that good against combo. Midrange decks don't really care about it anymore. As I noted earlier, 6/8 of the most recent top 8 played FEWER than 20 lands. These decks clearly don't need to Develop their mana bases. Meanwhile, we do.

    But on the other hand, it's fucking Wasteland! We've all gotten free wins because of it. It punishes greedy keeps. But is the punishment it dishes out to our opponents greater than the missed land drop and inevitable mulliganning wasteland creates on our side of the board?

  15. #5795
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Yeah, I wonder about whether it should be played anymore. It's not great against DRS. It was never that good against combo. Midrange decks don't really care about it anymore. As I noted earlier, 6/8 of the most recent top 8 played FEWER than 20 lands. These decks clearly don't need to Develop their mana bases. Meanwhile, we do.

    But on the other hand, it's fucking Wasteland! We've all gotten free wins because of it. It punishes greedy keeps. But is the punishment it dishes out to our opponents greater than the missed land drop and inevitable mulliganning wasteland creates on our side of the board?
    Well, I'm approaching this issue differently: What is the best replacement for Wasteland?
    If we think about this carefully we go like this:

    * Exclude Wasteland, because it's not effective
    * Exclude Rishadan Port because it's only effective in combination with Wasteland
    * Have a redundant amount of colored mana-sorces
    * figure out that we don't need that many colored manasources, since we are essentially a mono-colored deck.
    * Cut the lands down to 20, maybe even 18
    * Realize that Goblins still need lots of mana
    * Add some more Lands, lets say 21 in total
    * Realize that Wasteland is better than a Mountain

    Honestly, what would a wasteland-less manabase look like?

    4 Cavern of Souls
    6 Fetchland
    2 Duallands
    10 Mountains

    Or stated differently: what's a good replacement for Wasteland? Pendelhaven? Karakas? Volrath's Stronghold? Contested War Zone? Goblin Burrows? Ancient Tomb?
    Even ScatmanX, who is frequently running a WINSTIGATOR list, includes some manadenial there. Why? Because Wasteland and Rishadan Port are the best lands, as soon as you have enough red mana-sources.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that one should always run 4 Wastes + 4 Ports. However, I don't really see the drawbacks of doing so. I don't think that mana-fixing (color-fixing) issues occur all too often - unless you hold a 3-colored deck in your hand. Even then: our MD is 95%-100% mono-Red. What we need is MORE LANDS, not more COLORED lands. Also, having a Wasteland in playdoesn't mean you need to use it. That's something I have been talking about with jrw1985 and ScatmanX some months ago: Wasteland is primarily a mana-source. We can only activate it when we are absolutely sure that the drawback will be bigger for our opponent than for us.


    //EDIT:
    I was thinking about this one...
    It's not great against DRS.
    It's probably a ridiculous idea, but what about running Deathrite Shaman ourselves? It doesn't have to be a Rbg list - maybe Rb or Rg is fine. I can see the following benefits:

    * improving our own Wastelands in two ways: (1) using Wasteland to go for their non-basics, then Recycle it for mana, (2) use Wasteland to go for their non-basics, then leave Shaman untapped to counter opposing Shamans, by targeting the same card that they targeted
    * ramping Mana
    * MD graveyard hate (most likely for his green ability though)

    drawbacks:
    - demanding mana-requirements
    - veeery bad topdeck
    - we probably need to run more fetches AND duals, which means that we cut Rishadan Ports (which ultimately wouldn't match my original intentions)
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

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  16. #5796
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    Also, having a Wasteland in play doesn't mean you need to use it. (...) Wasteland is primarily a mana-source. We can only activate it when we are absolutely sure that the drawback will be bigger for our opponent than for us.
    The last time I played Goblins (or all other decks playing Wasteland) I would almost always use Wasteland and/ or Port as a mana-source. IMHO Wasteland isn't as powerfull as it used to be, and a lot of decks in my meta can run on three or even two lands. Combined with decks running DRS I would almost always keep Wasteland for those pain in the ass lands like Maze, not going the path of mana-denial. Now with the new rulings I think this Depth-combo will be heavily played (at least for a while), maybe even broken in some decks.

    I don't think it's wise to drop Wasteland, but maybe a split in favor of Port (something in the line of 4 Ports/ 3 Wastelands) can be considered. In my meta there are more and more decks running on fetch and basics: some really good (semi)-combo-decks for instance.

  17. #5797
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    what about running Deathrite Shaman ourselves?
    Been there, done that. The card is good. We really like the ramp. We somethat like the reach, we don't like the lifegain that much, and hate is situational, and having another 1 drop was neat. The overall conclusion was that it was not worth the slots. The opponents always ignored them, and topdecking was a awful. Also, you need to run an increased number of fetches for him too work. Combine it with Caverns, Wastes, and maybe Ports, you have a shitty manabase, and some really awkward decisions midgame (like, needing to fetch to play Warchief, needing to get a basic to do not get Wastelanded, drawing a Shaman...)
    Seriously, you can put him on the 'bad cards to add' section on the primer.

    I was wrting something about the Wasteland discussion, but forgot what it was, because writing while worrking is not the brightest idea. Anyway, I had gone this far. Maybe someone could get something from it:
    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    Honestly, what would a wasteland-less manabase look like?

    4 Cavern of Souls
    6 Fetchland
    2 Duallands
    10 Mountains
    1 - I think it might be usefull to check decklists from before Cavern of Souls was printed. I mean, Caverns is a colorless land for most of our sideboard cards. By running them, we weakened SB cards; With 4 more colored lands, we could push the SB alittle more. So I checked my previous manabases from 01/12/11, 09/20/09 and 10/18/09, respectively as follows:


    3 [M10] Mountain (2)
    4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
    2 [R] Taiga
    1 [MM] Rishadan Port
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
    (16 R, 9 G) (GG md, GGG SB)
    -----
    3 [9E] Mountain (4)
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    3 [MM] Rishadan Port
    3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
    4 [B] Badlands
    2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
    1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
    (16 R, 12 B, + utility) (9B on md + 2 Magus of the Moon)
    -----
    6 [DM] Mountain (2)
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
    4 [R] Badlands
    3 [MM] Rishadan Port
    (16 R, 10 B) (5B md, 3 sb, + Magus)
    ----
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  18. #5798

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    Honestly, what would a wasteland-less manabase look like?

    4 Cavern of Souls
    6 Fetchland
    2 Duallands
    10 Mountains
    I think you run AT LEAST as many fetchlands as targets for fetchlands, if not more. So in your hypothetical 22 land manabase, I'd start with 9 fetchs and 9 'mountains'. That means we can easily splasy 2-3 colours, or consider other utility lands.

    Here's my take on a Rwg list:

    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Karakas
    9 Fetchlands
    4 Mountains
    2 Plateau
    2 Taiga

    That gives you rock solid mana in both splash colours, as well as all the basics you could ever want in the world. And some utility.

  19. #5799
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    So now drop all Wastelands and Ports? Interesting

  20. #5800

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Hi, i return play mtg from ago and need some advice on this my list


    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Pendelhaven
    13 Mountain

    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    3 Goblin Warchief
    3 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Warren Instigator

    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 Goblin Wizard
    1 Stingscourger

    4 AEther Vial

    Qapl

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