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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

  1. #5841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annatar View Post
    Have to be honest here, I'm not really sure Blood Moon is what you should be looking for vs RUG. Even if you by some strange circumstance resolve a three mana enchantment, they can still burn you out, cast relevant removal spells like Lightning Bolt, Rough//Tumble etc and just do you in with the bigger creatures that they have already resolved. On top of all that, if you do resolve a Blood Moon you lose access to your non-basic lands which are at their very best in this particular matchup (Cavern of Souls and Wasteland).

    From my experience good cards against them after sideboarding come down to: Chalice of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Boartusk Liege.

    Chalice is probably better left for games in which you are on the play, but even then it might not be as effective if they see it coming. Relic is there to manage Goyfs and other ground pounders. Boartusk Liege is an option if you know them to be on Rough//Tumble. Unlike other lords it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt which is it's best merit by far.
    Blood Moon is good against RUG for a few reasons. First, they usually side out counter spells g2, so it won't be difficult to resolve BM. Second, once BM hits play the RUG player will never be able to resolve a delver, goose, or Goyf. All you need to do at that point is draw out the creatures they've already resolved and you'll win. They won't have enough burn to kill you. As far as BM turning off your Caverns and Wastes: That doesn't really matter. Under a BM the only spells RUG can resolve are FoW, bolt, and chain lighting, so you're not going to need your Caverns or Wastes anymore anyway.

    Resolving a BM says "You need to win with what you have on-board Right Now. I get to keep playing Magic."

    You are correct about Relic being great against them. Chalice is good too, when you can land it, but they pack Ancient Grudge sb, so they have answers. They have no answer to BM. Liege seems pretty vanilla against them too.

  2. #5842

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Blood Moon is good against RUG for a few reasons. First, they usually side out counter spells g2, so it won't be difficult to resolve BM. Second, once BM hits play the RUG player will never be able to resolve a delver, goose, or Goyf. All you need to do at that point is draw out the creatures they've already resolved and you'll win. They won't have enough burn to kill you. As far as BM turning off your Caverns and Wastes: That doesn't really matter. Under a BM the only spells RUG can resolve are FoW, bolt, and chain lighting, so you're not going to need your Caverns or Wastes anymore anyway.

    Resolving a BM says "You need to win with what you have on-board Right Now. I get to keep playing Magic."
    If they are taking out counterspells to make room for more removal and effective artifact solutions like Ancient Grudge then Blood Moon really is insane against them. I have some hazy memory that they tend to cut FoW after sideboarding, but I don't know how this works from RUG's perspective so I can't really discuss it properly. Probably makes sense if they tend to bring in more removal spells for the sideboard games.

  3. #5843
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Blood Moon is good against RUG for a few reasons. First, they usually side out counter spells g2, so it won't be difficult to resolve BM. Second, once BM hits play the RUG player will never be able to resolve a delver, goose, or Goyf. All you need to do at that point is draw out the creatures they've already resolved and you'll win. They won't have enough burn to kill you. As far as BM turning off your Caverns and Wastes: That doesn't really matter. Under a BM the only spells RUG can resolve are FoW, bolt, and chain lighting, so you're not going to need your Caverns or Wastes anymore anyway.

    Resolving a BM says "You need to win with what you have on-board Right Now. I get to keep playing Magic."

    You are correct about Relic being great against them. Chalice is good too, when you can land it, but they pack Ancient Grudge sb, so they have answers. They have no answer to BM. Liege seems pretty vanilla against them too.

    Well, you are right about them taking out countermagic. But they will also bring in Pyroclasm/Rough//Tumble. I think Blood Moon is only good if you resolve it at a moment when you think you can take control of the boardstate soon. If you can't do that you are likely to die in the way that Annatar described: they cast removal to bring their creatures through. So IMO Blood Moon is a risky enterprise. I think that the major problem with this MU is that you need to stay alive until midgame and I don't think that Blood oon helps with that (neither does Chalice or Boartusk Liege).
    Right now I'm keeping an eye on Perish, since I'm sold on the B splash anyway (for Cabal Therapy <3)
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  4. #5844
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post

    Well, you are right about them taking out countermagic. But they will also bring in Pyroclasm/Rough//Tumble. I think Blood Moon is only good if you resolve it at a moment when you think you can take control of the boardstate soon. If you can't do that you are likely to die in the way that Annatar described: they cast removal to bring their creatures through. So IMO Blood Moon is a risky enterprise. I think that the major problem with this MU is that you need to stay alive until midgame and I don't think that Blood oon helps with that (neither does Chalice or Boartusk Liege).
    Right now I'm keeping an eye on Perish, since I'm sold on the B splash anyway (for Cabal Therapy <3)
    I don't think Rough // Tumble has any bearing on the playability of BM.

    BM doesn't change your strategy at all. You still need to draw them into deep water by chumping while building your horde. BM just prevents the RUG player from building their side of the board after it resolves. Because once BM resolves, RUG can only cast burn. It can't sculpt, dig, fetch, or play creatures (which are its win-cons, Not the burn they still have access to).

    So I don't think playing BM against RUG is a risky move or suboptimal. I think Moon is well positioned to wreck super greedy manabases that are all over the metagame.

  5. #5845
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I don't think Rough // Tumble has any bearing on the playability of BM.

    BM doesn't change your strategy at all. You still need to draw them into deep water by chumping while building your horde. BM just prevents the RUG player from building their side of the board after it resolves. Because once BM resolves, RUG can only cast burn. It can't sculpt, dig, fetch, or play creatures (which are its win-cons, Not the burn they still have access to).

    So I don't think playing BM against RUG is a risky move or suboptimal. I think Moon is well positioned to wreck super greedy manabases that are all over the metagame.
    I kind of agree with you. Just be aware to do not over-sideboard. You don't want to bring in all Blood Moons, Relics and Chalices, and screw your Ringleaders. You still need the card advantage.
    But you convinced me to play Blood Moon again, and your list is awesome.

    (yeah, I still read this sometimes. But my country is kind of a mess right not, and is exhausting)
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  6. #5846

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    I kind of agree with you. Just be aware to do not over-sideboard. You don't want to bring in all Blood Moons, Relics and Chalices, and screw your Ringleaders. You still need the card advantage.
    But you convinced me to play Blood Moon again, and your list is awesome.

    (yeah, I still read this sometimes. But my country is kind of a mess right not, and is exhausting)
    First I liked the idea of playing BMīs. Since Wizards has weakened all the counterspells, playing cards like BM and Linving Death are nice techs.

    btw It can be exhausting, but I also live in Brazil and I am really happy and excited about all the moves being made here. This is important ScatmanX, we have a shot for a decent country.

    I really like the Winstigator lists people countinue to come with and I think they are the best option now, but I canīt play them properly.. I guess I am more of a control aggro guy =]

    Other thing. Gobolord, there is any discussion about intruder alert + kiki jiki/krenko? I know it is not that awesome, but it can hurt some matchs like by freezing some big dudes, and the possibility of a instant kill is very nice. Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter would like this card too.

    Thx.

  7. #5847
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by max_goblin View Post
    Other thing. Gobolord, there is any discussion about intruder alert + kiki jiki/krenko? I know it is not that awesome, but it can hurt some matchs like by freezing some big dudes, and the possibility of a instant kill is very nice. Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter would like this card too.
    I'm pretty sure that we havn't discussed this yet.

    Some time ago (~2 years) I was tinkering some decklist with Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite (or Deceiver Exarch for that purpose).
    I think that both cards are better choices than Intruder Alarm for two reasons:
    (1) Intruder Alarm hurts you more than anyone else. The more creatures you have the worse Intruder alarm is. Also it untaps your opponent's creatures as well, which is quite unhandy.
    (2) Pestermite and Exarch are more easy to put into play (Cavern of Souls, AEther Vial, having Flash)
    (3) both of them have bodies, which can either deal damage (the Fairy) or stall some creatures, like small Goyfs, Mongeese, Confidants and the like (the Cleric). This means that they have value even without Kiki-Jiki in play.
    //EDIT: I just noticed that both cards can tap down cretures that were put into play with Show and Tell (and even with Sneak Attack if you can produce U)
    //EDIT2: both creatures can even be used as temporary mana-denial - if that is of any importance...
    I have not extensively tested this, but I can imagine you can steal a game or two with the surprise-factor of this combo. I wouldn't adivice to focus on Kiki-Jiki too much though (i.e. don't run additional creatures that only really work in combo with him and/or Pestermite). Apart form that I think BLUE has some surprising SB-cards to offer as well, especially if you want to beat Combo-decks. (Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Daze). That doesn't mean I'm advocating the BLUE splash though...
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  8. #5848
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    If I was thinking about splashing blue this would be a way I would go. Opps I win can be fun, I like this. The only question I have in my mind is, without Kiki do these creatures really stand to help us on there own. While the answer is yes, they do not help to the same level something like Thalia does. Thus if I was splashing, I would rather go for something that will constantly help my game plan than something that is a non goblin that will help me only with the right situation.
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  9. #5849
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    pestermite/exarch
    Another nice thing is that, if you open with Vial, you can T4 kill them. (Vial will have 3 counters, you use Pestermite to untap one of your lands, and you'll have 5 mana)

    That said, the W splash is working better for us, and some editions ago we recieved a W card that can combo with Kiki and, imo, is better in a LOT of situations> Restauration Angel. It protects you from removal, blinks Sting/MWM/Matron/Rignleaer/Krenko for value, wins with kiki, is a 3/4 flyers non goblin.
    There are lists on The Council that play him, if someone bother to look for it. I'd happly test it.
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  10. #5850

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by orcanmail View Post
    I found that the Thalia list with Rishadan Ports was failing to contain other Legacy decks; Deathrites, Hierarchs just keep their mana flowing.
    Rishadan port and Thalia' s main purpose is to contain combo decks. Combo decks are our weakest MU and thalia is there for helping with that. She has an impact the moment she hits the battelfield, she doesn t need to wait untill your next turn in order to do something (unlike Warren Instigator). However, even with Deathrites your opponent will be slowed down by mana denial untill you assemble the combo haste+krenko or matron+ringleader and win from there.
    Mana dorks weakens the mana denial plan in the way that they provide a way out to color crew. However, mana denial will reduce their total available mana no matter what. Mana denial slows down also decks containing mana dorks. In fact, rishadan port can find a use even against a deck like elves combo which is full of mana dorks.

    @kiki-jiki combo: kiki-jiki combo is really sweet and restoration angel seems awsome for many other situations. However, the old boring question to ask yourself is: does this help me against my weakest MUs? It is too slow against combo decks and against the rest haste+krenko is easier and faster to assemble.

  11. #5851

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    How do you guys feel about playing Tarfire again as a mindeck solution to Deathrite Shaman? It seems to be the cleanest solution to that card, and already deals with quite a lot of other relevant creatures too. One thing it has going against it is that, as all removal spells, it is a dud in the combo matchup.

    EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it seems quite a lot of people are playing it already. So my next question would be what is the most optimal removal composition at this moment?

  12. #5852

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Annatar View Post
    How do you guys feel about playing Tarfire again as a mindeck solution to Deathrite Shaman? It seems to be the cleanest solution to that card, and already deals with quite a lot of other relevant creatures too. One thing it has going against it is that, as all removal spells, it is a dud in the combo matchup.

    EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it seems quite a lot of people are playing it already. So my next question would be what is the most optimal removal composition at this moment?
    I have been playing with 3 Incinerators, 2 Tarfire, and 1 Stingscourger, plus the Sharpshooter and it seems to be really solid. Tarfire seems bad, being only a Goblin shock, but it does so much. It kills Bob, Stoneforge Mystic, DRS, and also is excellent against Elves or Hierarch decks because it allows us to burn their turn 1 mana dork and keep them from the extra mana. I have a buddy who enjoys comboing off Glimpse of Nature on turn 2-3, but if I burn his first elf...many times its game over because now I have an extra turn/land to get to Matrons, and Sharpshooter.

    It is kindof a dud against combo...no it totally is except I have several times burned a Tendrils player when he was at 2 life because of Ad Nausium...feels really good. I like Tarfire, though still not sure to put it or Thalia in that slot.

  13. #5853
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    Another nice thing is that, if you open with Vial, you can T4 kill them. (Vial will have 3 counters, you use Pestermite to untap one of your lands, and you'll have 5 mana)

    That said, the W splash is working better for us, and some editions ago we recieved a W card that can combo with Kiki and, imo, is better in a LOT of situations> Restauration Angel. It protects you from removal, blinks Sting/MWM/Matron/Rignleaer/Krenko for value, wins with kiki, is a 3/4 flyers non goblin.
    There are lists on The Council that play him, if someone bother to look for it. I'd happly test it.
    First of all, I agree with you: Restoration Angel is indeed better than Perstermite and Exarch for this purpose.
    Second, I did a few test-runs yesterday with a decklist that featured 4 Pestermite and 1 Kiki-Jiki. I didn't like the Twiddle-Fairy at all and I put them into my SB after EVERY game 1. I included Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm in my board, which were quite nice. I think those two instants are viable SB choices - not only vs. Combo decks, but also vs severaly problematic cards like Engineered Plague, Pyroclasm (& Rough, & Firespout) .... in other words, they are nice if you want to counter board-sweepers.
    Kiki-Jiki was quite good too (surprise) and I most often could copy a Matron or Ringleader before he ate a removalspell.

    That being said I conclude 3 things:
    * Pestermite, Exarch and Intruder Alarm will be added to the "bad cardchoices" section
    * Restoration Angel is better than those cards, but probably not what we want either
    * Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are promising and will be added to the "to be tested" section
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  14. #5854
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    3-1ed the legacy challenge today. Matches were..

    ANT: 2-1
    Deathblade:1-2
    Deathblade:2-1
    Junk: 2-0

    Winning six packs. Weak

  15. #5855
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by goblinsplayer View Post
    3-1ed the legacy challenge today. Matches were..

    ANT: 2-1
    Deathblade:1-2
    Deathblade:2-1
    Junk: 2-0

    Winning six packs. Weak

    Thanks for the results. Could you edit your posting and add your decklist so I can include it in my analysis?
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  16. #5856
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    Thanks for the results. Could you edit your posting and add your decklist so I can include it in my analysis?
    I'll add it after the open today. Time to smash deathblade.

  17. #5857
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    4-1 in the open with goblins. Wish me luck.

  18. #5858

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Please.. someone make something clear to me.

    I was watching the 6th match of SCG, looking Max T give us another good ideas for how goblins should be played.
    The first game was nice. But please the second and third ones.. can anyone explains me WHY, why he wanted so much the green splash? Only for TSH for Pithing Needle? He lost both games with that goblin doing nothing on the board.. he cracked a relic too soon, and that card buy us a lot of time.. I really dont understand half of this actions. So if anyone can make it clear for me, I would be pleased.

    Thx.

  19. #5859

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by max_goblin View Post
    he cracked a relic too soon, and that card buy us a lot of time.. I really dont understand half of this actions. So if anyone can make it clear for me, I would be pleased.

    Thx.
    I can't think of a good reason to crack relic there. He was super mana screwed, relied too much on his vial resolving. Still, cracking your relic against RUG on t3 or 4, I was shaking my head.

  20. #5860

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by max_goblin View Post
    Please.. someone make something clear to me.

    I was watching the 6th match of SCG, looking Max T give us another good ideas for how goblins should be played.
    The first game was nice. But please the second and third ones.. can anyone explains me WHY, why he wanted so much the green splash? Only for TSH for Pithing Needle? He lost both games with that goblin doing nothing on the board.. he cracked a relic too soon, and that card buy us a lot of time.. I really dont understand half of this actions. So if anyone can make it clear for me, I would be pleased.

    Thx.
    Green also gives you Krosan Grip.

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