[Deck] Goblins

[Sir_tokealot]

So, essentially "long enough" means "for one turn". And winning on Turn 3 AND using manadenial is still not possible.

Turn 1 on the play.

cavern of souls -> lackey, omni halls opponent drops island and casts ponder. ships back turn.

turn 2

lackey swings to 19 drop warchief, play rishadan port. omni halls player is ported on upkeep, possibly casts brainstorm in response. drop another island/fetchland casts a cantrip and ships back.

turn 3

play a mountain (you have a rishadan port and cavern/red source at this point) cast matron for skirk prospector, sac matron for mogg war marshal, sac the war marshal for piledriver and swing for 17 putting them to 2, if they used 2 fetches or an ancient tomb or gitaxian probe they are dead. if not then at this point you should have one card left in hand if you were on the play, or 2 in hand if you were on the draw. so tin-street hooligan, mogg war marshal, another piledriver all guaranteed if they are at more than 18 life.

theres is more than 1 way to win on turn 3 than lackey into siege-gang, piledriver. warchief. look at the scenario i just came up with. it even ports them on turn 2!.

p.s. i told you so. the power of this deck can be incredible. skirk prospector should be in every single maindeck, as well as 4 piledriver, warchief, matron. if you like a chieftain i totally understand cus engineered plague sucks.

[magicmerl]

I ended up going 2-1 with 8 players showing up, (see post number #5948 above).

If you provide a link like this it would make it easier for people to join the dots.

Round 1 - Maverick'ish piloted by TJ

Yep, I agree with bringing in Boartusk Liege as well for the 4th PD.

Round 2 - RUG Delver piloted by Nick

How do you feel about bringing in GY hate as well? Much of their deck is nerfed if they lose their GY.

Round 3 - Aggro Loam piloted by Jeff

I would have kept that Game 2 hand given your deck composition. It was rough and didn't work out for you, but them's the breaks. The actual problem was not enough coloured mana. I find that I have hands like that myself every so often. Making me want fewer ports in my list. Is that something you have considered?

I often finding myself boarding out the Sharpshooter.

Yeah, I think that you can easily MD or SB it, the same as TukTuk or TSH. I STRONGLY feel you should keep it in your 75 however.

If I prepare for E Plague, I will clearly not play against it, and if I do my opponent will be unable to use it.

Well, that says that you should only devote 1-2 SB slots to Boartusk Liege then, no?

I appreciate Basic Lands.

Heh. All 3? Or is 2 enough?

p.s. Here's my current list:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

4 Aether Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Krosan Grip

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I have considered cutting Ports but I feel, so far, that they have helped me more than they have hurt me.

Normally I just bring in 3 Relics against RUG Delver and no chalices. I found that when I lose to Delver it's because a ground creature (Goyf or Goose) stops me from hitting them while I die to a delver and Stifles against my Gempalms. I actually sat there and thought for a long time before choosing Chalice over Leyline. I feel that a reasonable hand is more important than their graveyard in the match up. Leyline mulligans don't help the hand and in this build I can't cast it later. More lenient grave hate like Relic or Rest in Peace would be my top pick against them.

My meta still had 4 E Plague people there. I only played against one of them by chance in an 8 man, and he happened to never see them. Even though I was prepared for it I still got lucky to not see one, that card is rough.

As for basics I can't see playing less than 3 in my deck. 3 un-wasteable lands lets me drop my fourth and use it before it can get wasted in drawn out games to cast ringleaders. I prefer 4 if I can manage it.

[GoboLord]

Turn 1 on the play.

cavern of souls -> lackey, omni halls opponent drops island and casts ponder. ships back turn.

turn 2

lackey swings to 19 drop warchief, play rishadan port. omni halls player is ported on upkeep, possibly casts brainstorm in response. drop another island/fetchland casts a cantrip and ships back.

turn 3

play a mountain (you have a rishadan port and cavern/red source at this point) cast matron for skirk prospector, sac matron for mogg war marshal, sac the war marshal for piledriver and swing for 17 putting them to 2, if they used 2 fetches or an ancient tomb or gitaxian probe they are dead. if not then at this point you should have one card left in hand if you were on the play, or 2 in hand if you were on the draw. so tin-street hooligan, mogg war marshal, another piledriver all guaranteed if they are at more than 18 life.

theres is more than 1 way to win on turn 3 than lackey into siege-gang, piledriver. warchief. look at the scenario i just came up with. it even ports them on turn 2!.

p.s. i told you so. the power of this deck can be incredible. skirk prospector should be in every single maindeck, as well as 4 piledriver, warchief, matron. if you like a chieftain i totally understand cus engineered plague sucks.

I know one or two things about the deck myself and the point of this discussion was not to put the power of the deck into question. The point of this exercise was to say that you need to be realistic.

(1) If you port him on Turn 2 and deal 17 dmg on turn 3, then he has just another turn to cast Show and Tell (since you are tapped out and he can either use 3 basic island or 1 Island and 1 City of Traitors to do so.
(2) In you last scenario it would be WAY more reasonable to use Matron to fetch a Stingscourger instead of SKirk Prospecter, bc that means your opponent won't win with S&T --> creature.
(3) Your scenario still doesn't kill on Turn 3 unless very specific conditions are met.

I agree with the basic idea though, that Ports help a lot to put S&T decks in an unfavorable position so that you can either assemble an early kill (Turn 4 or 5) or draw your SB cards (additional Stingscourger, COnfusion in the Ranks, Angel of Despair, Cabal Therapy, Pyroblast).

[Sockosensei]

I played Jrw's mono red list (74 of the 75 cards) from p. 291 to a 2-1 finish at my local shop.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 MWM
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Gempalm
4 Ringleader
2 SGC
1 Krenko
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger

10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Waste
4 Port

SB
4 Leyline-o-the-Void
4 Chalice-o-the-Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Blood Moon




Rd 1: 0-2 vs Mono-green Beast Stompy
Rd 2: Bye.
Rd 3: 2-1 vs Sneak & Show

It's not the most informative result, but I know that GoboLord likes to have all the stats for the database.



Rd 3 vs S&S:
g1: On the draw, 2x Piledriver get there with Port and Wasteland doing incredible work.

Out: 3 Gempalm, 2 Pyrokinesis
In: 4 Chalice, 1 Chieftain

g2: It's very very close thanks to Stingscourger buying time, but he's just that one turn ahead as he Shows in Sneak Attack with the exact mana to land Emrakul and Griselbrand immediately for lethal.

g3:
My hand on the play is
Lackey
Lackey
Matron
Ringleader
Chalice
Cavern
Cavern

Opponent mulled to 6.
Me T1: Cavern, Lackey.
Opp T1: Fetch-->Island, Ponder (shuffle).
Me T2: Draw Chalice #2. Then, ...how would you play it out from here?



(As it turned out, the opponent's T2 was no land, petal, go. I had Chalice at 1 by then, so perhaps he had dead cantrips. Unsure.)

[jrw1985]

T2 I'd play a land, cast Chalice @ 1, cast Chalice @ 0 (since SnT plays Petal), attack with lackey, cheat in Matron, Tutor Piledriver. T3 attack with everything, cheat in Ringleader (depending on what's drawn) and cast Piledriver and Lackey. T4 attack them down to 3 (or play a Warchief and win).

I'd have to go with playing Chalice to disrupt them t2 and stop them from sculpting. Otherwise that hand isn't fast enough to race them. The other option is playing chalice at 0 turn two, then lackey into Matron into Piledriver, but then you leave them open to sculpting t2, which is worse for you because you can't win T3. They can.

[jrw1985]

Ps- what happened against mono G? I would think that would be a cakewalk.

[Sockosensei]

T2 I'd play a land, cast Chalice @ 1, cast Chalice @ 0 (since SnT plays Petal), attack with lackey, cheat in Matron, Tutor Piledriver. T3 attack with everything, cheat in Ringleader (depending on what's drawn) and cast Piledriver and Lackey. T4 attack them down to 3 (or play a Warchief and win).

I'd have to go with playing Chalice to disrupt them t2 and stop them from sculpting. Otherwise that hand isn't fast enough to race them. The other option is playing chalice at 0 turn two, then lackey into Matron into Piledriver, but then you leave them open to sculpting t2, which is worse for you because you can't win T3. They can.

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

I focused so much on which goblin to play that I forgot to play the second Chalice at 0!
I went T2 Cavern, Lackey attack-->Ringleader, revealing Ringleader, SGC, land, land. Play Chalice at 1.
My thinking was to hold back Matron a bit longer in case I needed to fetch Stingscourger later. I've been second guessing this since, which is why I posted.

Opp t2: No land, Petal.
my t3: Draw Mountain. Lackey and Ringleader hit him down to 16, dropping a free SGC. Play Mountain, Matron fetching Chieftain and threatening to swing for lethal on T4. He now needs to go off immediately or draw Pyroclasm without cantrips.
I still have Lackey, Chieftain, Ringleader, and Chalice in hand if he wipes the board.
He draws, messes with my head for a moment, and then scoops em up.


In the Mono Green match, I kept a slowish hand with Wasteland and Port to back a Vial. It turned out he was playing Chrome Mox and Elvish Spirit Guide to accelerate into Garruk-1. He soon had 3/3 tokens, was untapping Sol Lands with Garruk, playing multiple Obstinate Baloths, and beating face. I was on my way to stabilizing when he got Jitte online to smash my dreams.
G2 was very close. I had a solid starting hand, but then flooded with lands, excess Vials, and below average Ringleaders. Again I nearly stabilized at 2 life with Krenko making tokens galore, but again he drew Jitte and finished me.

[jrw1985]

I'm bored. Somebody write a tournament report for me. I haven't gotten to play since forever ago.



Uuuuugh.

[Bichon_Blitz]

g3:
My hand on the play is
Lackey
Lackey
Matron
Ringleader
Chalice
Cavern
Cavern

Opponent mulled to 6.
Me T1: Cavern, Lackey.
Opp T1: Fetch-->Island, Ponder (shuffle).
Me T2: Draw Chalice #2. Then, ...how would you play it out from here?

Chalice @ 1 and it's not even close. I don't ever want my SnT opponent to cantrip or sculpt. Petal just accelerates the win that they'd usually get against us anyways.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Just realized you had drawn a second chalice, derp. Perhaps another chalice @ 1 for any hate bounce.

[GoboLord]

I'm bored. Somebody write a tournament report for me. I haven't gotten to play since forever ago.



Uuuuugh.

Give me a list and I will play it on sunday. You know how it works :-D

[Dice_Box]

Try this then:

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Warren Instigator
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Sensation Gorger
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Æther Vial
2 Chrome Mox

10 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


Gorger, impossible to depend on, but sometimes plays hell with combo decks. Mostly a great cheat when playing with an open Vial. If you really don't want Gorger go for Tarfire in its place.

[GoboLord]

Try this then:
[...]

No offense, but I was asking jrw1985, since I've had positive experiences with that.

[Dice_Box]

Oh, ok. Well I guess I will just see what you guys come up with then.

[jrw1985]

Try this then:

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Warren Instigator
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Sensation Gorger
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Æther Vial
2 Chrome Mox

10 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Gorger, impossible to depend on, but sometimes plays hell with combo decks. Mostly a great cheat when playing with an open Vial. If you really don't want Gorger go for Tarfire in its place.

I don't like gorger just because he's symmetric. He restocks your opponents hand too. Now maybe this is good against a combo deck that plays a lot of cantrips and has to set up a one turn kill, but imagine this effect resolving against Burn, Reanimator, Elves, affinity or (shudders) Dredge. Your opponent will benefit from it greatly.

@Gobolord: See what I said about those two flex slots MD?

[FTW]

step 1 win the die roll (clutch)

turn 1 lackey -------> turn 1 cantrip
turn 2 swing, drop siege gang, cast piledriver ------->turn 2 more cantrips
turn 3 swing big, assuming you dont have the kill keep up port mana. --------->turn 3 oops i cant cast show n tell without a sol land. if they are on omni halls plan then gg.

that is how its done. i dont think porting on turn 2 is better than dropping a piledriver.

If you choose to wait to turn 3 to port because you have a nut draw, why would you not just pay 1R and KILL them instead? Porting is good, but winning is better. Lackey + SGC + Piledriver is a turn 3 goldfish... T2 you hit for 1, T3 you hit for 17 and you can just fling a goblin for the last 2 points. Or you can be a jackass and port their Island since they can never tap Ancient Tomb for mana ever...

Because Piledriver makes this a turn 3 kill, if you cast Piledriver precombat they are probably forced to Force it in case you nut-drop SGC from Lackey and just kill them. So at that point they have to Force either Thalia or Piledriver on turn 2 to avoid a loss, and I'd rather have the Thalia in case they don't force and you don't actually have the SGC to drop. Then again, if opponents can't do math, then casting a "harmless" Piledriver and saving Thalia for SnT may be the better play.

[Sockosensei]

I'm bored. Somebody write a tournament report for me. I haven't gotten to play since forever ago.

I plan to take your mono-red list again this Tuesday and will write a report after.

Last week there was a small turnout:
ANT
Merfolk - black splash for Discard
Merfolk - white splash for StP, Geist
Jund
Mono-green Beast Stompy (the same player usually brings BW Lingering Souls+equipment)
Shardless BUG
BUG Delver
Sneak & Show

Other decks that I often see at that shop are High Tide, MUD, RUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade, and even mono-red Dragons.


I'm still horrendous at figuring out what to side in, and more importantly, side out.
I know that's a lot of decks to think of sideboarding plans against, but I need to start somewhere so any advice would be appreciated.

[GoboLord]

Report Time!
Piloted jrw1985’s list yesterday.

//MANA (22)
4 Caverns
4 Waste
4 Ports

CORE (26)
…

OTHERS (12)
4 Gempalm
4 MWM
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko
2 Relic

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Blood Moon
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Round 1: Marcel with 4c Countertop feat. Delver and Punishing Fire
G1: Nothing spectacular. Vial sticks on Turn 1. After that I have 2 Wastelands and a Rishadan Port. I take some beating from Delver of Secrets, but I kill the insect and finish him with Piledriver + X.

-2 MWM, +2 Blood Moon

G2: I open with Lackey, which connects. I resolve Blood Moon to keep him from casting Engineered Plague. One turn later my men get Firespout-ed. I recover and kill him.

Round 2: Pascal with BUrg Storm
G1: I open with Lackey. Pascal uses Probe + C. Therapy to get rid of my Ringleader. I connect into Warchief for a T4 kill, which is apparently too fast for him.

-4 Vial, -2 Relic, -1 Ringleader, -4 Gempalm, -1 Stinger, +4 Chalice, +4 MBT, + 4 Leyline

G2: I open with 2 Leylines, 1 MBT, 1 Lackey, 1 Port and something else. Pascal can’t win through 3 pieces of hate paired with a fast clock.

Round 3: Marc with 5c Tempo-eque Good-Stuff-thingy-deck
G1: Too many Delvers, Deathrie Shamans and Stifle

-1 SGC, -1 Stinger, +2 Blood Moon
G2: His opening hand was something like 2 Lightning Bolt, 2 Delver, 2 lands,1 Ponder. His consecutive draws were Bolt, (Delver in Ponder) and Geist of Saint Traft. No chance there.

Round 4: Timur with Mono U Sea Stompy
G1: I get locked out by Tangle Wire + Esperzoa.

-1 Relic, + 1 Tuktuk

G2: I kill him with Lackey, Krenko, and 2 Piledrivers.

G3: I’m staring at a Sea Drake, which hold a Jitte on Turn 2. One Turn Later the guy gets pumped up by Sigil Blessing.

Round 5: Matthias with bUrg Tempo
G1: I die to double Delver

-1 SGC, -1 Stinger, +2 Blood Moon

G2: Lackey trades with Nimble Mongoose. Gempalm trades with Delver. After that he’s pretty much pout of creatures.

G3: This game takes an eternity. We trade back and forth and at some point at around Turn 17 my hand looks like this: 1 Blood Moon, 2 Ringleader, 1 Krenko, 1 Lackey, 1 Piledriver. I have 5 Mountains and 2 Cavern and some 1/1 bodies in play after he wiped me with Fire Conveant, paying 8 life. Strangely enough I lose the game. Blood Moon meets Daze, Krenko meets Bolt, Ringleader #1 meets Stifle, Ringleader #2 is a blank. I lost the game because I didn’t play my spells in the right order. Should have started with casting Ringleaders I guess. Also, playing Blood Moon into Daze was not the brightest idea either.

So, this day ended with a disappointing 2-3.


What I liked:
Leylines, Chalice, being Mono R

What I didn’t like:
Relic in MD, Krenko, SGC, Blood Moon

Future directions
* I will replace 2 Relics with 2 Pyrokinesis
* I will probably try a list without neither Krenko nor SGC, because they are too clunky. Those 3 slots will probably be filled with a combination of one ore more of the following cards: Warren Instigator, Goblin Chieftain, Stingscourger, Frogtosser Banneret
* I will replace Blood Moon with something else – probably Sharpshooter and Boartusk Liege.

As always, thanks for reading. And thanks to jrw1985 for the decklist.

[jrw1985]

@Gobolord: Thanks for playing the deck. Too bad about the finish. I like that you'd rather have Pyrokinesis md than relic. That's good to know. I'll md pyros the next time I play.