[Deck] Goblins

[LeoCop 90]

Against Omnishow I mulliganed to 6 the and the fastest play i could do was porting him on turn two. I just hoped to topdeck a thalia or a chalice of the void to disrupt his gameplan. In retrospect i should have mulliganed to 5, but i didn't want to do it because the cards i sided in were not game ending bombs against show and tell like angel of despair or confusion in the ranks. I don't think that mulliganing to 5 and having a thalia or chalice would have made the difference.... in the end i already knew before the tournament that show and tell was my worst matchup.

Against shardless i always kept my honest 7 without turn one play. I think that this is fine as long as they don't start turn one deathrite, turn two shardless agent and overwhelm us fast. If they also have a slightly slow hand the fight is even because our card advantage engines are comparable. The difference was made(apart from topdecks) by the fact that he was able to counter a ringleader in the first game, and a boartusk liege on the third, because i didn't see cavern of souls.

[magicmerl]

Against Omnishow I mulliganed to 6 the and the fastest play i could do was porting him on turn two.

I think that keeping that 6 was a flat out mistake. You can always Lackey into Ringleader on 4 cards even if you fail to mull into your SB cards. T2 port with no pressure is just miserable. Goblins can happily mulligan all the way down to 4 and still have a strong chance vs most decks, simply because Lackey is so forgiving.

I just hoped to topdeck a thalia or a chalice of the void to disrupt his gameplan. In retrospect i should have mulliganed to 5, but i didn't want to do it because the cards i sided in were not game ending bombs against show and tell like angel of despair or confusion in the ranks.

I think you've missed the point. By mulling to 5 you have *5* changes to draw a SB card. As opposed to your next draw step, which only provides one. Look at a mull as drawing that many cards.

I don't think that mulliganing to 5 and having a thalia or chalice would have made the difference.... in the end i already knew before the tournament that show and tell was my worst matchup.

You might still have lost, but please own your mistake here. If you give up mentally vs your worst matchups you are unlikely to improve vs them.

Against shardless i always kept my honest 7 without turn one play. I think that this is fine as long as they don't start turn one deathrite, turn two shardless agent and overwhelm us fast. If they also have a slightly slow hand the fight is even because our card advantage engines are comparable. The difference was made(apart from topdecks) by the fact that he was able to counter a ringleader in the first game, and a boartusk liege on the third, because i didn't see cavern of souls.

Right. So you think the matchup comes down to tempo / card advantage. Sounds like this was just a bad draw on your part, and I wouldn't kick myself too much about losing in three games.

[GoblinSettler]

Went to a large-ish tournament today. Also did poorly. 1-2 Drop.

I expected a heavy U/W and Show and Tell field. My list was skewed towards that with 3 Thalia main and skewed towards fun for me with 4 Settlers.

R1: I lived the dream of turn 2 and turn 3 Stone Raining my Sneak and Show opponent. Game two was over with some quick aggression.

R2: I faced Zoo. Not expecting that. I dropped a bunch of MWMs and Piledrivers to fit the four Settlers. That didn't go over well. Game one was kind of a blow out. Game two I stayed in it for a few turns but made a critical misplay. I could have gone: Vial in Matron, tutoring a Lackey. Cast Lackey. Cycle Gempalm to take out a summoning sick KotR. Instead I decided to use Matron to find Krenko and explode on the board. He had EE for the tokens and an active KotR allowed him to get Grove/Punishing Fire online. I am not sure if I would have won out, he had the ability to GSZ for another KotR one or two turns later so the engine would have started up soon enough.

R3: My opponent opened with Caverns naming Goblin. Was it the mirror? No it was MUD with Welder. I threw away a Wasteland to try and slow down his development but ended up stunting my own mana way harder. Game two I kept six cards that included two lands and artifact hate. But after six turns or so I never see another land and I wasn't ticking up a vial. No fight there.

Poor play and not mulliganing enough hurt. I'm sure my particular list didn't help but I accepted that going in.

[jrw1985]

Gotta mull to those 1 drops. Mulling to 5 with a 1 drop gives me a higher win % than keeping a 7 or 6 without. Our 1 drops are that good.

[jrw1985]

I played the following last week and went 2-2 at a local 8 man tourney.

3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 AEther Vial
2 Tarfire

4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern
2 Plateau
3 Mountain
5 Fetchland
1 Karakas

SB
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Rest in Peace
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Wear // Tear

I beat RUG Delver R1. I lost G1 when he had every tempo-riffic card imaginable (as RUG often does). So I sided in my Relics and RiPs, and those pretty much won games 2 and 3 for me. 1-0
I played against ANT in R2. I won G1 on the back of MD Thalia. G2 I tried to be sneaky when I just should have slammed a Thalia and I got punished for it. Game three I just mulled into oblivion and kept drawing totally unplayable hands. 1-1
RUB Pyromancer/Delver was my R3 opponent which was a really fun MU. It's pretty much your classic tempo deck but it puts on a good clock if you don't have answers for it. Pyrokinesis was pretty clutch because it was able to help me re-set the board when he has a Pyromancer and a few Elementals out. Tarfire was big here since everything in the deck is X/2 or less too. I won in 3 games, the third of which was super sloppy on both our parts. It really could have gone either way.
In R4 I played against Nic Fit, which is really just a lousy MU in my opinion. There are several things that make the match so bad. First off is Veteran Explorer, which does a great job of chumping Lackey. Nic Fit is just much better at exploiting that card than Rx Goblins can. MonoR Goblins gets a good boost from it, but only running 3 basics makes Veteran kinda a dud for my build. THe second card that is a real problem is Cabal Therapy. Since we don't have counters or Brainstorm, and since goblins lists are always stocked with the Core taking up 1/3 of the deck, it's pretty easy to for a decent Nic Fit player to have CT hit twice against Goblins. The third problem is that they run Decay and Pulse, both of which do a great job against our Vials. Having multiple Vials hit by a Pulse is backbreaking, but Vial is a card that needs to be played in multiples since it takes so long to get online (aka you can't sandbag it for later in the match). A fourth problem is Pernicious Deed. Anyone who has played against it knows why. Fifth problems are recursion, like Recurring Nightmare or Eternal Witness paired with Volrath's Stronghold. And the sixth problem is their game winners, like their Titans and Thagtusks. Nic Fit just has great cards against us at every stage of the game, and they have great ways to answer our graveyard hate as well. I lost this match 0-2, but I'm OK with it. This is just always going to be a lousy MU. It's much better for us when we run a full playset of Piledrivers and can just put more damage on the board more quickly to pressure them in the mid-game, but I'd still rather just run 2 Piledrivers against the rest of the field.

[GoblinSettler]

Gotta mull to those 1 drops. Mulling to 5 with a 1 drop gives me a higher win % than keeping a 7 or 6 without. Our 1 drops are that good.

Thanks for the encouragement. Need to get back to playing that way.

[orcanmail]

I would like to share a thought on how to increase the number of cards in our SB,

Against Combo I am always wanting more hate, so I tried Mindbreak Traps but they were always removed from my hand, although they sometimes stalled the combo player, so with this in mind my mono red SB is

3 Pyrokenisis
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Boartusk Liege

and when I play combo I sigh, shuffle in 15 SB cards and let drop that I hope to draw my Mindbreak Traps to counter them. The bluff means I don't even need them in my SB, the bluff itself is enough! Hopefully this buys some time for Chalices and Thorns, and frees up extra SB space by not actually running Mindbreak Traps.

Just a thought to share

[magicmerl]

Or, you can just run some SB card (Thalia, Pyrokinesis) maindeck.

[orcanmail]

Or, you can just run some SB card (Thalia, Pyrokinesis) maindeck.

Or maybe even both! although Winstigator lists don't run Thalia so that depends on your build, and running SB cards in the MD means dropping MD cards.

[ScatmanX]

and when I play combo I sigh, shuffle in 15 SB cards and let drop that I hope to draw my Mindbreak Traps to counter them. The bluff means I don't even need them in my SB, the bluff itself is enough! Hopefully this buys some time for Chalices and Thorns, and frees up extra SB space by not actually running Mindbreak Traps.

I think you can actually just play 1 Trap (instead of a Chalice on your build) and 'accidentally' show your opponent when sideboarding. That way they'll fear your 1off, and give you enough time to cast Thorn and such. And you might actually draw it sometimes.
From what I can recall, it is a legal move.

ps: Will be playing today after a long time. Hope t do not punt badly.

[FTW]

Gotta mull to those 1 drops. Mulling to 5 with a 1 drop gives me a higher win % than keeping a 7 or 6 without. Our 1 drops are that good.

This. About the only time I don't do this is if I have a more relevant hate card and am in a defensive role.

I LOLed at taking 4 Settlers to a tournament. Just awesome. But I think you need to cut more expensive drops for them. Cutting MWM and Piledriver is clearly screwing up your curve and leading to mana screw/tempo issues in some matches...

[FTW]

The third problem is that they run Decay and Pulse, both of which do a great job against our Vials. Having multiple Vials hit by a Pulse is backbreaking, but Vial is a card that needs to be played in multiples since it takes so long to get online (aka you can't sandbag it for later in the match). A fourth problem is Pernicious Deed. Anyone who has played against it knows why.

I have long ago conceded that if I sleeve up little green men I am flat out losing to any BGx midrange/control deck. Deed + discard has always been a beating (can't sandbag, can't overextend) and adding Decay to the mix is just painful. Meh.

Has there already been a discussion on 0cc gravehate vs Relics? I find Relics a turn too slow against Reanimator/Tin Fins/Dredge sometimes, although must be nice vs Punishing Jund.

[goblinsplayer]

I have long ago conceded that if I sleeve up little green men I am flat out losing to any BGx midrange/control deck. Deed + discard has always been a beating (can't sandbag, can't overextend) and adding Decay to the mix is just painful. Meh.

I play against nic fit a lot and the mu is about knowing when to kill their explorer. And how to play around deed. I usually try to kill explorer at the end of their turn so they cannot use the lands on their main phase. Rip is also very good against them. Ringleaders are very important in this matchup and try not to overextend.

[Sandro95]

Hi everyone! I played in a four rounds tournament today with the following list.

4 Aether Vial
1 Tarfire
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Badlands
6 Fetchlands

Round one I faced burn. I lost game one when I could have attacked for eight, but had his lifetotal wrong, thinking he was at nine. Thankfully I won game two by racing and game three by landing Chalice of the Void at one.

1-0

Round two I was paired against show and tell(omniscience). I was on the draw and mulliganned down to four cards. I knew he was playing either show and tell or high tide, and that I needed to be fast. I kept a hand of Lackey + 3 goblins, topdecked a Wooded Foothills and went on to win the game. I lost game two on a mulligan to three with only a Chalice to slow him down, and not much pressure. Game three I mulliganned to four again, going Lackey into Chieftain and Cabal therapy. My opponent quickly force of willed it, so i flashed it back using Lackey (should I have sacrificed Chieftain instead?) naming show and tell, but my opponent managed to preordain into show and tell and draw a dream halls.

1-1

Game three I won versus grixis delver because the delvers I was facing didn't flip for about five turns. Game two my opponent landed an engineered plauge while at eleven life. Ringleader kept beating down, and after the first Chieftain got bolted, Matron for the second one managed to win the game.

2-1

This time I was on the draw against what may have been either deathblade or bantblade. Stoneforge mystic getting batterskull into play on turn three with two deathrites were met with the grindy hand of Aether Vial, Gempalm, Matron and Ringleader. Drawing a Krenko to Vial in at end of turn with a Warchief in play made it so that I could untap, vial in a Ringleader, get a Piledriver countered, play Chieftain and Mogg war Marshal, tap Krenko and swing for exactsies. I boarded out for lackeys and boarded in 2 pyrokinesis, 1 perish and one Cabal therapy. Turn two stoneforge mystic fetched a jitte. I tarfired it end of turn, untapped and Cabal therapied it away. The next turn I landed a Piledriver followed by a Ringleader and took over the game with Matron for Piledriver + flashback Cabal therapy taking batterskull.

3-1

[ScatmanX]

Game three I mulliganned to four again, going Lackey into Chieftain and Cabal therapy. My opponent quickly force of willed it, so i flashed it back using Lackey (should I have sacrificed Chieftain instead?)

Only if you had access to 3+ lands. Otherwise, saccing Chieftain was right.

Played my 4round yeasterday.
M1 - Lost to Patriot because in 2 games, all my 3 Ringleaders revealed a total of 3 goblins (2 Lackeys amongst them).
M2 - Bye. Hate getting byes in small tournaments...
M3 - Uwr control. Won G1 after going from 6 lands, 2 Vials, 0 dudes, and being Jace softlocked with a Geist on the other side, and only 2 cards in hand ('fresh' cards, since Jace put 2 down) to having 14 power on the battlefield on the same turn, from a good Ringleader. G2 was decided n me Porting the shit out of a Karakas, that made him unnable to save a Geist, and on an attack by me on a Jace with 4 counters with 2x Tokens, MWM, Lackey and Matron, while having a Vial@4. Opponent StPd MWM, StPd Lackey and blocked Matron. I Vialed in Boartusk, and Jace died. Tapping the W source was key too, to avoid another StP.
M4 - TinFins. Mull to 5. Lead with Vial, and had Waste + 2 Ports, that did pretty much nothing. Let Vial@2, while casting Matron for Piledriver, and hit him for 4 for several turns. He took too long to find Shallow/Goryo, and when he did, I had Stingscourger. G2 I mulled a no R hand, into a T1 Needle (Griesel) into a T4 kill.

Loved playing goblins again. The deck is just that good when your Ringleader doesen't wiff on your 34goblin deck.

I've been toying with this for now:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
12 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Warmarchall
2 Goblin Piledriver

1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Krenko, Mob Boss

3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Skirk Prospector

SB:
3 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Pithing Needle

2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice of the Void

2 Surgical Extraction

2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Crafter

The MD looks wonderfull to me, and I'll keep playing 0 Caverns for now.
The SB is pure hate against unfair strategies, and big goblins against fair ones. I've been fiding out that not dilluting your deck against these midrange decks (BGx whatever, Uwx crap) turns out to be very good, so we are usually able to grind them out, because our Ringleaders keep being awesome with 34 goblins post-board. Also, Boartusk is just bonkers, and Crafter tested really well so far. Quite happy with the split.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I have long ago conceded that if I sleeve up little green men I am flat out losing to any BGx midrange/control deck. Deed + discard has always been a beating (can't sandbag, can't overextend) and adding Decay to the mix is just painful. Meh.

Has there already been a discussion on 0cc gravehate vs Relics? I find Relics a turn too slow against Reanimator/Tin Fins/Dredge sometimes, although must be nice vs Punishing Jund.

Has anyone else experienced this as well? I find that when I play against BGx Midrange I'm not favored in the long run. Shardless BUG can actually match our card advantage handily by using Shardless Agent / Ancestral Visions / Discard and their sideboard and mainboard seems reasonably well equipped for the match up. The mainboard using Abrupt Decay on our vials is very relevant and many people just having Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed sitting in their side. Our cards do not "shut them off" nearly as hard as theirs. Jund is not much better with Punishing Fire mainboard more often than not; It can be dealt with but is not ideal. I didn't even mention that these decks play Deathrite Shaman mainboard. I know we've brought this up several times but that card is a problem and needs to be dealt with early or the opposing deck turns into a monster. That Mana, that burn, that life gain have all been very relevant before and often in the same game.

I have experienced some success's with a 3 Tarfire, 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Sharpshooter list but I appear to be losing more than I win matches (40/60 against BUG Control, BUG Walkers, Junk Aggro. Its 100% possible I'm approaching the match up incorrectly, keeping bad hands or am simply a worse player than my opponents. My area is very competitive, but these repeated losses do hurt my pride to say the least.

Or maybe I'm just complaining about my friends home brew and am bringing it to forefront here. He plays [Thalia, Stoneforge, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman / Abrupt Decay, Aether Vial, Port, Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary].dec (SB, Engineered Plague, Sword of Fire and Ice). I am considering Engineered Explosives against him on Human. He is always a part of my meta in my area... (His list to my knowledge if anyone cares. It's actually a pretty sweet deck.)

As for Relic versus Tormod's Crypt or even Surgical Extraction for instance it comes down to meta choice. Tormod's Crypt is not ideal for neutering a Tarmogoyf but is very solid at buying time against Dredge. Usually there are more Tarmogoyf's than Putrid Imps running around, and Relic is still viable against Dredge where as Tormod's Crypt is rather lackluster in its opposing. Additionally that cantrip attached to Relic is a very powerful effect, often helping you regain precious card advantage after chumping Tarmogoyf for a few turns or the like.


Edit: @ScatmanX - You've mentioned your Lightning Crafter a couple of times now, when do you bring it in and when do you leave it on the bench?

[ScatmanX]

Edit: @ScatmanX - You've mentioned your Lightning Crafter a couple of times now, when do you bring it in and when do you leave it on the bench?

Crafter right now comes in against: Goblins, UWR (control, Delver and Patriot), DeathBlade, Shardless Bug, Jund, Junk, Merfolk, Canadian, Affinity, Elves, DnT... well, guess that pretty much everything except combo. Would really like to MD him, but don't know where to cut from that list. Probably the 2nd Krenko...

Against the deck you posted I'd not side in Gravehate, even if I played with Relic of RiP. You want Artifact hate, and a high goblin count. You mantioned Engineered Plague, but after SB he'll not have Thalia, so it does'nt do much. Engineered Explosives, on the other hand, if you want to test something different, might be nice.
Sharpshooter and Crafter seem to be awesome here too.

Edit: Man, Krenko is your best friend there. He has 3 removal spells for it, and 0 Karakas. Get it active, deal with Jitte (hell with Batter), and win the game. He doesen't even have fliers to push dmg trough. An evergrowing army of 1/1 should do the trick.
Also, his manabase sucks hard. 3 colors, 22 lands, 8 colorless. Try to Waste/Port the shit out of him.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

The mana denial plan fails against his deck rather hard. You'd think that his shaky mana base would fall under pressure but it simply doesn't. He has Aether Vial and Deathrite Shaman in addition to basically curving out at 2. He only needs 1 colored mana to cast most of the spells in his deck. It is rare when there is an opening to actually deny him out. Not saying it hasn't happened, I'm just saying it is less fragile than it looks. More than once I've tried to go down that path only to have my Aether Vial Abrupt Decayed so I then lose my edge.

I do agree about Krenko though. Getting to 4 is surprisingly hard, I have been thinking about cutting 1 to 2 Cavern's akin to you to dodge apposing Wastelands. I have noticed we get hurt by Wasteland pretty bad as our curve is much higher than most legacy decks. Vial should make it OK, but in that mentioned BGx match up it just isn't as effective with Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed and in a number of them Engineered Explosives.


Edit: I hate Deathrite Shaman / Abrupt Decay. It warped the format away from our favor.

Edit2: I do not board in Grave Hate against the mentioned Junk Deck. I bring in Artifact Hate, Pithing Needle, Pryokinesis
I'm currently using 2 Pithing Needle instead of Engineered Explosives as they appear to do the same jobs but normally a turn sooner. I have had Engineered Explosives in my board before and it was good. Definately worth considering, it was solid against several decks. It still picks off artifacts, deals with Lingering Souls, can actually do something to Rest In Peace / Energy Field / Helm of Obedience in Mono Red. I definitely consider it when I set up my board.

Edit3: I suppose I could just post my list. It is very affected by my current meta if some choices look... pushed.

My mainboard is as follows:
//Lands (23)
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Core [24]
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
2 Tin Street Hooligan

3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire

And then there is the sideboard, currently I have the following.
//Sideboard
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Nature's Claim
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

[jrw1985]

I have long ago conceded that if I sleeve up little green men I am flat out losing to any BGx midrange/control deck. Deed + discard has always been a beating (can't sandbag, can't overextend) and adding Decay to the mix is just painful. Meh.

Has there already been a discussion on 0cc gravehate vs Relics? I find Relics a turn too slow against Reanimator/Tin Fins/Dredge sometimes, although must be nice vs Punishing Jund.

What I've found to be most effective against BGx decks is a fairly classic gameplan with graveyard hate thrown in. RiP is the best generally as it turns off a whole slew of GBx cards (DRS, Veteran Explorer, Goyf, CT, Punishing Fire, Recurring Nightmare, Sun Titan, KotR), but unlike against RUG Delver RiP is hardly an auto-win once it resolves. You still need a high Goblin count, a strong mana base, and you need to be able to out-card advantage them.

[ScatmanX]

I do agree about Krenko though. Getting to 4 is surprisingly hard, I have been thinking about cutting 1 to 2 Cavern's akin to you to dodge apposing Wastelands.

...

//Lands (23)
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Yeah, I suppose hitting 4 lands is rather hard while playing only 4 Basics, specially when he has 4 Ports. Nonetheless, cutting Caverns is an option.

I've tested lots of different cards against Maverick, and though it is not the same deck, it appear to play somewhat similar to this one. Pithing Needle was a long tested card, and only after a lot of games I managed to figure out it was not doing enough. It is too reactive and easily dodgable, for an effect that eventually might not do anything, and adds nothing to the board.
With your decklist, I'd just bring in the Kinesis, that are amazing here, and maybe only 1 Nature's Claim. You do not want to open up to Waste on Taiga unless you really need too, and his deck is able to get you even if you destroy a Vial or one of his 3 Equips, while Library is not his best card (though pretty good still).

The MU does sound hard, but those Tarfires and TSH are really good to have.

(I actually really like his deck. Would change a couple of cards MD, and a lot SB, but might aswell try it sometime (and playtest against goblins and let you know my fidings =]))