Hello,
I've been playing Goblins on and off for a while, and after messing with various other Vial/Tribal decks, I've again landed on it as a choice.
I'm playing this list at the Legacy Open in Columbus on Sunday:
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Plateau
8 Fetches
3 Mountain
1 Karakas
SB:
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyrokenisis
3 Rest in Peace
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wear/Tear
I have some questions about the deck in general that I'd like answered by senior members of the thread, aka the veterans of the archetype.
1. Why have many lists abandoned the White splash as of late? In my 2 weeks of testing the weakest slot in the deck has been the 2-drop, and Thalia fills that role very nicely, proving to be a much higher-impact card than it's goblin mana-equivalents. Keeping a hand with no Vial or Lackey but Thalia on 2 has been much stronger than Piledriver on 2. I've also found the White-based sideboard to be the strongest out of all the splashes.
2. Why has there not been more focus on Krenko? My list is almost entirely based around resolving a Krenko and winning a few turns after. In every fair matchup I've tested, unanswered Krenko takes over the game in 1-3 turns, proving more effective than any other "silver bullet" tutor targets. Every match that I've searched up something else, two turns later I've wished I would have gotten Krenko. Several scenarios have come up where Krenko wins through Batterskull and SoFI, and I wondered why we even play Scrapper.
3. The mana base continues to feel very vulnerable against Wasteland/Delver decks, and I see Rishadan Port as a liability most of the time. When I have it to follow up a turn 1 Vial it feels great, but having it Wasted/having it not produce red mana has been relevant in more of my games than the mana-denial ability. Have any of you guys been mana screwed/felt the same way about Port?
4. Why is there so much excitement about Grenzo? His activated ability seems extremely situational, and casting him to just be a 4/4 for 4 mana seems mediocre at best. Grenzo has anti-synergy with ringleader and overall feels like a poor direction for the deck to take.
5. Finally, my sideboard is the least tested part of my deck. Thoughts on the numbers/choices?
There is not a lot of combo played at the moment, making Thalia less attractive.
I like Krenko. He wins games when he sticks and is one of our best cards versus BUG decks. However, goblins usually win fair matchups by outgrinding them with ringleaders and matrons, and that plan is more reliable than going all in on Krenko.
I don't think our manabase is that vulnerable. We have Aether Vial and can fetch for basics. It's not perfect, but wasteland deck usually aren't what I'm afraid of. Also, Rishadan Port is secretely a two-drop, maybe the best one in the deck.
I think Grenzo has potential. He is a two-drop, which you said is the weakest slot, that if left unchecked will threaten to take control of the game. He is card advantage on a stick. I'm not too familiar with the white splash but your sideboard seems fairly stock to me, with cards that are very clearly good in the matchups they're good in.
R/B Goblins
Follow me on Twitter @SandroRajalin
My articles:
Legit MTG
Brainstorm Brewery
Hipsters of the Coast (Current)
1) Our 2 drop as you identified is our weakest slot, agreed. I like lists running Thalia, Guardian of Thraben main-board, but it is a meta choice. I also agree that Goblin Piledriver is a weak turn 2 play, nobody is debating that. The original reason people have, and still do run multiple Goblin Piledriver is for the explosive-ness he provides the next 2-3 turns. Several wins in goblins come from behind and he is usually the reason why. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a "better" creature in general that does the opposite. She does not increase our clock, she slows opposing clocks down. It's a literal difference in play-style choice. If you are more comfortable taking victory by affecting their plays directly she is your woman. I prefer a solid clock in general, as being faster-- read threatening --makes my opponents play exactly how I want them to. See the my answer for your 4th question to further answer this question.
2) When It came down to it I made a chart by hand and wrote down the pro's and cons of the "Finisher Goblins." Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I don't have it with me now but If memory serves I kept coming down to the fact that if I am behind a top decked Siege-Gang Commander does more damage than the other two cards AS WELL AS simply being a better clock against combo decks AS WELL AS giving us another route to victory if we can't attack for one reason or another. In the list I had set up the only type of deck Krenko, Mob Boss was literally better against was BUG colored decks while being about even against decks that simply just had Deathrite Shaman in it. Nothing beats incremental advantage quite like exponents. As for the other guy I don't think I'd run Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker unless I have Warren Instigator.
Though I'll give you it's not like he doesn't do work against the field. I just kept seeing scenario's where I was behind. If I am behind I have less goblins than I would like, usually making him spend a full turn just getting to the "threatening" point. That said, he is my favorite Finisher Goblin. He's got style.
3) Scrolling up you'll find my piece on Rishadan Port. I do notice the mana screw from time to time, and I fully believe that it is worth the risk for the power of the card. See old school Merfolk running 12 (U) sources with 8-12 creatures requiring (U)(U).
4) The hype on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is about the fact that he is the closest to playable 2 drop goblin that might warrant a main-board slot that's been printed since Warren Instigator. People are just testing and hoping-- Me included. The fact that he can be bigger should be seen as upside, not the original point of this card. Could you define what you mean by "...and overall feels like a poor direction for the deck to take. " Are you referencing the fact that the deck get's grindier?
5) I'm assuming 3 Oblivion Rings are mainly for Show and Tell with upside in other matches? I don't think it's close that I'd drop 1 for a Stingscourger. Just straight up gives you more live draws against the fatties.
Could it be that you feel the mana base is so vulnerable because you have a slightly higher curve than normal? Or is that just my personal taste?
<List>: <Number of Permanents at CMC X> (<Number of Non-Permanents at CMC X>)
I counted Gempalm Incinerator and Stingscourger as 2 drop non-permanents
Your List: 8 (3), 6 (3), 10, 7
Jim Davis's: 9 (3), 9 (3), 8, 4, 1
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
Legacy Goblins Records
Our Discord
Well first of all, you should not keep hands without anything to do on turn 1 (i.e. without either Vial or Lackey in your case). Its true though that Thalia is better than Piledriver when you put them on an empty board (like you would do on turn 2, without a turn-1 play.
It's also true that White offers many SB cards that are very effective, however you should know your meta well and see which cards you need (i.e. which splashcolor you want to play) and not vice versa. In my oppinion B is the strong supportive color for our deck, given the decks we want to beat right now.
I cut Krenko (and any other fattie) from the list because it felt like they were not able to turn around games that I couldn't win otherwise (mostly that meant tutoring Ringleader or Piledriver, but ostly RIngleader really). Also, when Krenko won games for me it often looked like he was ending the game one turn earlier than other cards would have done - i.e. I didn't really need or want him for winning games.
Also, we play Tuktuk Scrapper because he destroys/wins against equipments reliably, without having to wait for whole turn and without being removed before he can get his work done.
As a sidenote I have to mention that I havn't played a list with Thalia and without WInstigator for over a year now, so that's the lense through which I am seeing Krenko.
Absolutely. I am on 0 Ports and only 3 Wasteland right now. No regrets.
Well, you should first work out the top 5-8 decks you are expecting to face and post them here. That'S what's your SB is all about. Without that information you can't build your SB correctly.
One thing I can already tell you is that Oblivion Ring is way worse than Ashen Raiders/COnfusion in the Ranks agains Show&Tell decks and, worse than basically anything else if you want to actually cast it (on creatures or enchantments - it doesn't matter).
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Im currently trying to decide between a more traditional goblins list and something with WInstingator for a local tournament. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which version is better in certain meta environments. Im very familiar with classic builds but Ive decided to give WInstigator a chance to prove himself. Also trying to decide if i want to pick up FBB Badlands or a FBB Tiaga for my deck... wondering if the black splash is truely the way to go now. Any advice would be great.
You should definitely feel the power of WInstigator lists. ABout the splashcolor: I think green is mostly (if not only) used for Tin Street Hooligan. Tuktuk Scrapper is a very good substitute for TSH (in fact I would be able to tell which one is better). Also B offer strong cards like Perish, Cabal Therapy and Warren Weiridng.
Ultimately it depends on the metagame. Which decks do you expect to face? Either way, I'd build a Winstigator deck and the see if you need a splashcolor. If you need one it should probably be Black. Also on the long term, I would invest in Badlands and Plateaus (at least for this deck) because those two splashcolors offer the attractive and quite unique SB cards.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I have my two FBB German Plateau's I was just debating on the Badlands, but I'm thinking I'll just go for it. I'm trying to pimp the deck as best as possible and just praying for a Rishadan Port reprint so I don't have to drop $800+ each on them. The tournament I'm going to is full of casuals. People playing Stoneblade with shocklands instead of duals and no Wastelands to be found... and some stuff like burn and cheap dredge or infect lists.
Smells like combo. A mono red list should do (in fact I don't think that splashing B will get you anywhere against burn and infect...)
I would run something similar to this:
3 Chrome Mox
4 Caverns
15 Mountains/Wasteland
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 WInstigator
4 Piledriver
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 whatever you feel like
SIDE
4 Chalice
1 Chrome Mox
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spellskite (against Burn and infect. Crazy shit, I know.)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 something
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Is Goblin Warchief not typically played with WInstigator?
Tournament report! I went 3-1 with the following list
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Warren Weirding
2 Tarfire
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
I cut a Warchief for Grenzo, to try him out, see what he's capable of.
R1 UWR Delver 1-2
G1 He casts FOW on a Tarfire, saving his mystic. This wins him the game as I can't Warren Weirding his TNN away a few turns later.
G2 I play a Chalice for one, and he cast spell pierce (?!!). I draw and play another one which meets a Force of Will. Then I play some goblins. We get to a point where he has TNN and I have six power in play. I cast Warren Weirding, he activates his Mishra's Factory in response, and I pyrokinesis it before WW resolves. G3 He gets a TNN into play with Jitte in hand. Then he plays a Vendilion Clique, which I can't gempalm away, because I have no goblins in play. Otherwise I might have had been able to matron for WW to get rid of his TNN. I have a feeling there was something I could have done differently this game, and maybe I would have won.
0-1
R2 Grixis Painter 2-0
G1 beat down with goblins while trying to disrupt him, I don't remember more details from this game.
G2 he leads with City of Traitors > Sensei's Divining Top > Pithing Needle on Wasteland. At one point he activates grindstone, and in response Welders it to get a Painter's Servant into play. I pyrokinesis his guys and get milled a few cards. From there on I beat down with a piledriver and some other guys. After a while he comboes again, and I have the second Pyrokinesis.
1-1
R3 MUD
My opponent leads with Cavern of Souls, pass. I ask him what creature type he named, and he responds with "Goblin". Turns out he wasn't on goblins though, but MUD, naming Goblin for Welder. I play a Lackey and pass. He plays a t2 chalice for 1, and then doesn't do much while I beat him down. G2 I keep a risky hand with only one land and Vial. He plays t1 chalice for one. I draw, play a land and pass. I won this game largely due to getting to resolve a thoughtseize and two aether vials through his chalice. Funny thing is that when I thoughtseized him he had a Welder in play and showed me three fatties. I chose the Kuldotha Forgemaster as it was just a 3/5, rather than a wurmcoil engine or platinum emporion. He beat me down with forgemaster and double Welder. I gempalm his welders (they're goblins! XD). and tuktuk scrapper his forgemaster. Then I swarm the board and kill him in a few turns.
R4 UB Delver 2-0
My opponent hadn't gotten all his cards yet, so he was playing a brew with lots of counterspells, duresses and Dandân (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=106631). I played versus him before the tournament and beat him 5-0. He was a really nice guy, and I look forward to playing with him again, when he has all of his cards.
I didn't get to use Grenzo too much, so I can't say too much about him yet. Otherwise, the deck felt good. I feel this configuration has worked out very smoothly for me. I'm considering an extra tarfire and/or fetchland md, and an extra thoughtseize in the side. I will see where I end up with the list next time. As always, if you have any questions, any suggestions, or just anything to say in general, I'll be glad to hear it! :)
R/B Goblins
Follow me on Twitter @SandroRajalin
My articles:
Legit MTG
Brainstorm Brewery
Hipsters of the Coast (Current)
I have replaced Warchief with Chieftain in my WInstigator list. He's the better lord in this version since he actually gives you +2 damage with the double striker, you don't need Warcheif's mana cheapening effect as much since you essentially have 8x lackey's, and finally, 4x +1/+1 lords help you fight through -1/-1 effects like Engineered Plague.
More significant than the extra damage is the way it gives the opponent fewer blocks where he/she can trade with Instigator -- DRS in particular, and SFM occasionally. This pump is also significant for Lackey and even Piledriver.
With work sucking away my time recently, the majority of my matches have been on MTGO. I've run pretty much every imaginable Instigator build, with or without Chrome Mox, black splash, white splash, Tin Street green splash, etc. My experience with Mox has been decidedly poor, much as I want to like it. No card I've ever run has made me curse out loud like Chrome Mox in goblins. I just have not shared the positive experiences of ScatmanX or GoboLord with the card, perhaps because I am a less accomplished pilot and poor at predicting my needs three turns later(?).
By far my most successful list has been Rwg Instigator with 2x TSH, 1 Tuktuk, 1 Kiki, and 1 Krenko main, and Thalia, RIP, Wear/Tear, Chalice in the side. No Moxen. It was Josiah, I believe, who convinced me to try Kiki, and it has been incredible. Ringleader/Matron #5 on a bad day. Typically though it sticks around for repeated value as opponents have already used removal on Piledriver, Lackey, Instigator, or Lords; no one wants to waste removal on a resolved Ringleader or Matron, meaning Kiki has targets. Kiki-Piledriver can just end games shortly.
Josiah is me. :) Glad to have turned you on to the awesome power of Kiki-Jiki, although I do believe Kiki is more powerful in a deck that can drop a Winstigator on turn 1 via moxen. Yes, moxen are terrible topdecks, I've been pretty good at knowing what to throw under them on turns 1 and 2.
What's the trouble you have with them? Do you have a hard time knowing what to put underneath? Or is the card disadvantage just seem to big of a drawback?
Oh wow, have you guys seen the updated M15 spoiler? It looks like we will soon have a new goblin to try out.
http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/g...blemaster.html
Goblin Rabblemaster
2R
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able.
At the beginning of combat on your turn, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste onto the battlefield.
Whenever Goblin Rabblemaster attacks, it gets +1/+0 until end of turn for each other attacking goblin.
2/2
I dunno. That Goblin looks pretty lackluster to me. The negative is rather significant, and the upside is hardly better than the other lords we have access to. Even as a tutor target just for the cool goblin production, I prefer Matrons and Ringleaders.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I don't know about this guy. Every time I see a goblin match, they're usually in the defensive until they out card advantage their opponent before they go for the alpha strike. Sure, you get the really fast turn 3 uninterrupted kills. Forcing your team to attack when your opponent's creatures can out muscle you doesn't help the deck.
This goblin would really be good if it destroyed a land or an artifact as it enters the battlefield at 3 mana.
Yeah, it's true. The guy could be very good with Piledriver but as the deck stands he probably wouldn't fit in that well, especially since he'd be competing with Matron and Chieftain/Warchief.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)