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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

  1. #7581
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Skol vikings!

    Anyone tested the new disenchanty elf?

  2. #7582
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    Quote Originally Posted by potatodavid View Post
    Skol vikings! Anyone tested the new disenchanty elf?
    Whaaaaa? Wrong thread, bra. You going to Mead Hall tonight or what?

    I think I'm going, and I think I'll be running a build with Thoughtseize. I want to be able to make T1 plays that are actually defensive/disruptive, not just the straight up fill-the-board approach of lackey/vial. I'm not entirely sure what adjustments should be made to the deck though. I'll probably try rocking Aunties Hovel to maximize B sources. And I might want to run a few Winstigators to keep my 2drop slot powerful. Hmmmmmmm.....

  3. #7583
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by potatodavid View Post
    Skol vikings!

    Anyone tested the new disenchanty elf?
    He is ok. Not "super good" but ok, just another disenchant option in sb. Good with vial, 2/1 beater/blocker after trigger, good with cavern(playeble after wasteld to single taiga). I think that elf is musthave in goblin payer's cardpool.

  4. #7584
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    What a shame... considering an elf among goblins... how bad we are reduced this days XD

  5. #7585
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Whaaaaa? Wrong thread, bra. You going to Mead Hall tonight or what?

    I think I'm going, and I think I'll be running a build with Thoughtseize. I want to be able to make T1 plays that are actually defensive/disruptive, not just the straight up fill-the-board approach of lackey/vial. I'm not entirely sure what adjustments should be made to the deck though. I'll probably try rocking Aunties Hovel to maximize B sources. And I might want to run a few Winstigators to keep my 2drop slot powerful. Hmmmmmmm.....
    I missed out on legacy last night, and next week as well

    maybe in 2 weeks.

  6. #7586
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    I played some miserable Magic on Wednesday with a Rb list. Wasteland was a liability all day. And I learned Warchief does not affect Trinisphere. Everything still costs 3 per the Oracle text.

  7. #7587

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I played some miserable Magic on Wednesday with a Rb list. Wasteland was a liability all day. And I learned Warchief does not affect Trinisphere. Everything still costs 3 per the Oracle text.
    The order of operations is:
    1) Increasers (Sphere of Resistance, Thalia, etc)
    2) Reducers (Medallions, Affinity for X, etc)
    3) Minimums (Trinisphere)

  8. #7588
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    Quote Originally Posted by civet five View Post
    The order of operations is: 1) Increasers (Sphere of Resistance, Thalia, etc) 2) Reducers (Medallions, Affinity for X, etc) 3) Minimums (Trinisphere)
    Yeah, there's a section of the comprehensive rules I've always cited that lists a different order and has cost reducers listed last, so I've always confidently believes Warchief could still make your gobbos cost less than 3. Then I read the oracle on Trinisphere. It all costs at least 3, Always. Always.

  9. #7589

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Yeah, there's a section of the comprehensive rules I've always cited that lists a different order and has cost reducers listed last, so I've always confidently believes Warchief could still make your gobbos cost less than 3. Then I read the oracle on Trinisphere. It all costs at least 3, Always. Always.
    Would you mind posting a link? Maybe that section hasn't been updated or something.

  10. #7590
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by civet five View Post
    Would you mind posting a link? Maybe that section hasn't been updated or something.
    Sure:

    601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some
    spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay,
    or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents,
    sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative
    cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all
    cost reductions.
    If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction
    effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is
    determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost
    becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

    Because of this section I always believed Trinisphere made your Mogg War Marshal cost 2R, but with a Warchief in play it would cost 1R, because according to this section the cost is first set to 3, then cost increases are added, then cost decreases are take out (Warchief effect applied last).

    But then I got turned onto the Oracle text on Trinisphere:

    Rulings
    12/1/2004 Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.
    12/1/2004 Even with a cost reducer on the battlefield, spells can't cost less than three mana to cast.
    12/1/2004 If a spell costs at least three mana due to additional costs, such as kicker costs, that's fine.
    12/1/2004 You still need to pay any additional nonmana costs the spell has, such as sacrificing a creature or discarding cards.
    12/1/2004 Casting a creature with morph face down already costs three mana, even though the converted mana cost of the face-down spell is zero, so Trinisphere normally doesn't modify the total cost of a face-down creature spell. However, if Dream Chisel is reducing that cost while Trinisphere is on the battlefield, you'll still have to pay three mana for the spell.


    And the rules on the card always trump the rules in the rulebook.

  11. #7591
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Just a quick question: What do you think of Skullcrack on "countering" TNN?
    Since there is a clause in "protection from X" that says that the protected entity prevents damages that would be done to it from sources of the X caracteristic, Skullcrack says "screw you".

    Example: You attack with MWM, he blocks with TNN. Before the damage is done, you cast Skullcrack, and unless he counters it, you've killed TNN and dealt some damage to the opponent too.

    Everlasting Torment and Leyline of Punishment may work too, but you then lose the surprise effect, so no.
    It doesn't work on the defence, since you can't block TNN either ways, but at least you can kill it on the offence, and after the first time, you instill fear in your opponent when you are attacking with two mana open.

    Pro:
    -May kill planeswalkers
    -May kill TNN on the attack
    -Can't be prevented
    -May make the last damages in a grindy game or against some close matchups
    -May reduce the effectiveness of Batterskull (instead of gaining 4 life or more, he loses 3) (also, Skullcrack vs Batterskull )
    -Instant

    Cons:
    -Counterable
    -Not a Goblin

    Your thoughts?

  12. #7592
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Raznaak View Post
    Just a quick question: What do you think of Skullcrack on "countering" TNN?
    Since there is a clause in "protection from X" that says that the protected entity prevents damages that would be done to it from sources of the X caracteristic, Skullcrack says "screw you".

    Example: You attack with MWM, he blocks with TNN. Before the damage is done, you cast Skullcrack, and unless he counters it, you've killed TNN and dealt some damage to the opponent too.

    Everlasting Torment and Leyline of Punishment may work too, but you then lose the surprise effect, so no.
    It doesn't work on the defence, since you can't block TNN either ways, but at least you can kill it on the offence, and after the first time, you instill fear in your opponent when you are attacking with two mana open.

    Pro:
    -May kill planeswalkers
    -May kill TNN on the attack
    -Can't be prevented
    -May make the last damages in a grindy game or against some close matchups
    -May reduce the effectiveness of Batterskull (instead of gaining 4 life or more, he loses 3) (also, Skullcrack vs Batterskull )
    -Instant

    Cons:
    -Counterable
    -Not a Goblin

    Your thoughts?
    It is far too narrow.
    You have to be in the board state that you are able to attack into a True-Name Nemesis and risk them counter spelling Skullcrack. And, as you were expecting pepole to say, it is not a Goblin card. This is far more important than it seems at first. The card needs to be a very powerful to make it into the maindeck AND/OR sideboard if it is not some Goblin Piker with an ability. The reason variants are so good is the reason Goblins is a viable deck. Synergy. Card for card we have a terrible deck on paper, and we make up for that loss of power in Synergy. The deck doesn't have a ton of room to just fit things in for a card that is effectively just another fatty. We can beat Tarmogoyf without grave hate or killing it, we can beat True-Name Nemesis for the same reasons. Swarm and Swing.

    I personally feel like dealing with the relevant things around True-Name Nemesis is easier and more feasible than dealing with it directly. He was kind of designed not to be interacted with. And is totally not a multi-player card based on it's abilities, and should have been white, but it was printed in commander and is blue... so yeah.


    Edit: I'd play Flaring Pain before Skullcrack because it still does literally it's one job, and is re-usable. Source: My pauper goblin deck's answer to Crimson Acolyte.
    Last edited by Olaf Forkbeard; 07-20-2014 at 03:16 PM.

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  13. #7593
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Hi all. I haven't played any big Legacy events lately, but I did hit up my local store for their weekly Monday 4 round tourney last night. I ran a list very similar to the one I brought to the SCG Open with just a few changes.

    I replaced the underperforming Lightning Crafter with Siege-Gang Commander for a little more explosive potential and one of the Warren Weirdings with a Gempalm Incinerator to diversify my removal options. In the sideboard I replaced one of the Sharpshooters and the 3rd Tuk-tuk Scrapper (the redundancy on these didn't seem that important) with a Goblin Settler and Wort, Boggart Auntie in an effort to try a couple new cards that may have potential.

    //MANA [22]:
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern Of Souls
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Mountain
    3 Chrome Mox

    //CORE [28]:
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Warren Instigator
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader

    //OTHER [10]:
    2 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    3 Tarfire
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Warren Weirding

    //SIDEBOARD [15]:
    4 Chalice Of The Void
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Earwig Squad
    1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Goblin Settler
    1 Stingscourger

    I didn't take any notes so my report isn't going to be as thorough as last time, but this is what I remember.


    Round 1 vs BUG midrange

    Game 1: My opponent led with a Goyf and a bunch of brainstorms, while I beat him rather quickly by getting a Winstigator through via Stingscourger which led to Kiki-Jiki/Matron shenanigans.

    Sideboard
    In: 1 Stingscourger, 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
    Out: 2 Tuk-tuk Scrapper

    Game 2: This game went a bit longer. I think I made a mistake by not chumping a 5/6 Goyf with a Matron when I was at 19 life, because later on in the game, while I had him down to 1 (with 4 lands and Matron into Tarfire FTW once I untapped) he was able to swing at me with two 7/8 Goyfs for exacties.

    Game 3: This game was pretty hilarious. I had a slow start and by turn 4 or 5 I only had a Mountain, Vial on 2 and a Piledriver facing his Strix, Lilliana and Jace. Things didn't look very good for me, but I vialed out Winstigator EOT, ripped Tarfire off the top to kill Strix, attacked to take out Lilli and used Winstigator to Matron out Kiki-Jiki. On his next turn he reset the board with Toxic Deluge, but I was able to use my Kiki activation to Matron up Ringleader which flipped 4 goblins (including another Ringleader which flipped 3 more) and I was able to overwhelm him with card advantage.

    1-0


    Round 2 vs Storm

    Game 1: I opened with Mountain, Lackey and followed it up with Wasteland on one of his two dual lands. My opponent didn't draw another land the rest of the game and I was able to finish him without any problems.

    Sideboard
    In: 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Earwig Squad, 1 Goblin Settler
    Out: 4 AEther Vial, 3 Tarfire, 1 Warren Weirding, 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Tuk-tuk Scrapper, 1 Stingscourger

    Game 2: I dropped a Chalice for one on turn 2, but my opponent quickly uses LEDs and Cabal Rituals to Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins. Meanwhile I'm sitting with a Matron in my hand, wondering why I didn't board in my Sharpshooter (I won't be making this mistake for a third time, UGH!) Somehow, I was able to survive by Matroning up Siege-Gang, blocking with Matron to take 9 on his first swing, then playing Siege-Gang, blocking 4 more and taking 5 to go to 6 on his second swing. Luckily I drew another 2/2, so his next attack with 5 guys brought me to 3 (and him down to 3 guys), and then I had stabilized, drew more goblins and won. WHEW! Close one.

    2-0


    Round 3 vs Storm

    Game 1: This was the fastest kill I've assembled to date with the deck! It was sweet. Turn 1 Cavern, Lackey, Go. Turn 2 swing, drop Siege-Gage, play Winstigator. Turn 3 play land, mox, Ringleader, flipping Chieftain. Attack, drop chieftain on Winstigators first strike trigger, allowing the rest of the goblins to smash for 16. WOO!

    Sideboard
    In: 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Earwig Squad, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    Out: 4 AEther Vial, 3 Tarfire, 1 Warren Weirding, 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 2 Tuk-tuk Scrapper, 1 Stingscourger

    Game 2: Of course, after killing my opponent on turn 3 the previous game, now it was his turn. I open with turn 1 Cavern, Lackey, Go, and he has Tendrils for 20 on turn 2. Ouch.

    Game 3: I open yet again with Cavern, Lackey, Go. He does some pondering. I attack and drop Siege-Gang again and use a Wasteland. He does some brainstorming. I don't have any other follow ups for the rest of the game, but he isn't able to get there and my token army takes it down.

    3-0


    Round 4 vs BUG midrange

    Game 1: Weird. In four rounds I only faced two different archetypes. This game involved a bunch of trading. He FoW'd and Abrupt Decayed some things, I tarfired and Warren Weirding some things, eventually we end up in topdeck mode and I start chaining Ringleaders to come out way ahead.

    Sideboard
    In: 1 Goblin Settler, 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    Out: 2 Tuk-tuk Scrapper, 1 Stingscourger

    Game 2: I mull to 5 and keep a sketchy hand of Mountain, Piledriver, Winstigator, Matron, Ringleader on the draw. I don't draw land for 3 turns. He drops Jace and starts fatesealing me. Yuck. Maybe I should have went to 4?

    Game 3: For the second time in as many matches, I manage to assemble a turn 3 kill! I keep the god hand of Mountain, Mox, Lackey, Winstigator, Piledriver, Tarfire, Kiki-Jiki. Turn 1 Winstigator turns into turn 2 Piledriver and Kiki-Jiki. At the end of my opponents turn 2 I make a copy of Piledriver, then on my turn, I make another copy of Piledriver. The 3 Piledrivers swing with Winstigator for a combined total of 23. Awww yeah.

    4-0


    Of course, it was just casual (10 proxy) Monday night Legacy at my local store, but it was still fun to 4-0 and get two 3rd turn kills in the process. I am really liking the decklist as it is now. Siege-Gang is such a house in the 8 Lackey build, he has earned his keep and I will not be sleeving up without him again. Although I only drew Wort once or twice when I basically had the game already locked up, I'm going to leave her in the board to see how she does in the future. I have a feeling she could be the card I want to bring in for a bit more late game reach against the grindy, midrange matchups when I don't need 2 Tuk-tuks or a Stingscourger. The only changes I feel like I would make in the near future would be maybe just slight metagame tweaks on the number of Tuk-tuks, Tarfires, Stingscourgers, and Earwig Squads. Everything else is super duper solid. I feel like I have a fighting chance against anything the local meta can throw at me. Hope you guys enjoyed the report! Talk to you soon.

  14. #7594
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by cooljets View Post
    H

    //MANA [22]:
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern Of Souls
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Mountain
    3 Chrome Mox

    //CORE [28]:
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Warren Instigator
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader

    //OTHER [10]:
    2 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    3 Tarfire
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Warren Weirding

    //SIDEBOARD [15]:
    4 Chalice Of The Void
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Earwig Squad
    1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Goblin Settler
    1 Stingscourger


    Of course, it was just casual (10 proxy) Monday night Legacy at my local store, but it was still fun to 4-0 and get two 3rd turn kills in the process. I am really liking the decklist as it is now. Siege-Gang is such a house in the 8 Lackey build, he has earned his keep and I will not be sleeving up without him again. Although I only drew Wort once or twice when I basically had the game already locked up, I'm going to leave her in the board to see how she does in the future. I have a feeling she could be the card I want to bring in for a bit more late game reach against the grindy, midrange matchups when I don't need 2 Tuk-tuks or a Stingscourger. The only changes I feel like I would make in the near future would be maybe just slight metagame tweaks on the number of Tuk-tuks, Tarfires, Stingscourgers, and Earwig Squads. Everything else is super duper solid. I feel like I have a fighting chance against anything the local meta can throw at me. Hope you guys enjoyed the report! Talk to you soon.
    The changes I made after my last tournament (some 6 weeks ago) are pretty similar to what you did here. I changed the deck to mono-red, and added KJ and Krenko because I felt like I actually need some finishers. My MD looks exactly like yours, except for -1 Warren Weriding, + 1 Tarfire and -1 SGC, + 1 Krenko.
    You said you want Wort, Boggart Auntie for the grindy MU. I included Krenko for exactly the same reason. Krenko is very good against BUG decks as they can't get rid of him (fast enough) once he's on the battlefield. I thought about adding Wort, too but I found that Krenko is better at actually winning games as he quickly snowballs out of control. Also I'm pretty sure that Krenko is better than SGC against any non-combo deck. In the creature MUs (i.e. when you don't board out Aether Vial) where you want to fetch Krenko (or SGC for that matter) with Matron, I find that Krenko fits the curve better than SGC (EOT tap Vial @3 to bring in MAtron, on your turn add a counter and tap Vial to bring in Krenko). In this situation SGC can be discarded before you get the chance to bring him in. However, I agree that SGC is the btter card to bring in with Lackey/Winstigator in early game, because Krenko takes longer to get going.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  15. #7595

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    What are the odds that this deck is simply too archaic to perform well consistently in scg opens. Why so few top8s? Are the newer decks simply more powerful more consistently? It seems that this thread has gotten kinda stale, talking in circles with very little innovation. Are people really considering goblin settler in their 60? Maybe im totally off and maybe someone can prove otherwise about the downward spiral this deck has seem to been taking for a while now.

  16. #7596
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmythegreek View Post
    What are the odds that this deck is simply too archaic to perform well consistently in scg opens. Why so few top8s? Are the newer decks simply more powerful more consistently? It seems that this thread has gotten kinda stale, talking in circles with very little innovation. Are people really considering goblin settler in their 60? Maybe im totally off and maybe someone can prove otherwise about the downward spiral this deck has seem to been taking for a while now.
    The deck is still good, people (cough*jimdavis*cough) just don't built it right anymore. See my recent tourney report.

  17. #7597
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    The changes I made after my last tournament (some 6 weeks ago) are pretty similar to what you did here. I changed the deck to mono-red, and added KJ and Krenko because I felt like I actually need some finishers. My MD looks exactly like yours, except for -1 Warren Weriding, + 1 Tarfire and -1 SGC, + 1 Krenko.
    You said you want Wort, Boggart Auntie for the grindy MU. I included Krenko for exactly the same reason. Krenko is very good against BUG decks as they can't get rid of him (fast enough) once he's on the battlefield. I thought about adding Wort, too but I found that Krenko is better at actually winning games as he quickly snowballs out of control. Also I'm pretty sure that Krenko is better than SGC against any non-combo deck. In the creature MUs (i.e. when you don't board out Aether Vial) where you want to fetch Krenko (or SGC for that matter) with Matron, I find that Krenko fits the curve better than SGC (EOT tap Vial @3 to bring in MAtron, on your turn add a counter and tap Vial to bring in Krenko). In this situation SGC can be discarded before you get the chance to bring him in. However, I agree that SGC is the btter card to bring in with Lackey/Winstigator in early game, because Krenko takes longer to get going.
    I'm not sure Krenko is right. Yeah, he is one mana cheaper, but SGC has added applications, like as seen in my last report. Blocking EtW tokens, attacking for 9 the turn after being cast, being able to act as removal or burn to the dome, additional token creation with Kiki, etc. I'm going to stay on SGC for now and see if he keeps performing.

  18. #7598
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    GoboLord, if you are on mono red now, what do you do for the combo matchups? I find it hard to believe that Chalice alone is enough. Sorry if you've posted about this already.

  19. #7599
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    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmythegreek View Post
    What are the odds that this deck is simply too archaic to perform well consistently in scg opens. Why so few top8s? Are the newer decks simply more powerful more consistently? It seems that this thread has gotten kinda stale, talking in circles with very little innovation. Are people really considering goblin settler in their 60? Maybe im totally off and maybe someone can prove otherwise about the downward spiral this deck has seem to been taking for a while now.
    The deck has so few top 8s because it has become extremely inconsistent. It is susceptible to Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Those cards have done a fine job of negating Lackey and Aether Vial. Without Lackey and Vial consistently cheating Gobbos into play the deck actually needs to hardcast cards. This makes the deck more susceptible to Wasteland than just about any deck in the format because of our extremely high curve and reliance upon non-basics. Having the highest curve used to not matter because we could cheat everything into play, and that allowed us to have janky-ass manabases and rock Waste+Port+Cavern. Well, we can't cheat stuff into play consistently anymore, so the manabase and high curve are liabilities. Also, when our opponents' Wastelands become better our Wastelands become much, much worse.

    The thread has gotten stale because there just aren't enough Goblin cards to make things interesting. You can go ahead and playtest all the 4-drops you want; they still won't win you the game without the basic Lackey/Vial engine working. We need better 1 and 2-drops that allow us to win without Lackey/Vial, but there are no 1-or-2-drops being overlooked (except Goblin Skycutter). WotC is clearly not interested in printing interesting Goblins that cost less than 2R.

    I could go on, and I probably will later, but I'd better get back to work now.

  20. #7600

    Re: [Deck] Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    The deck has so few top 8s because it has become extremely inconsistent. It is susceptible to Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Those cards have done a fine job of negating Lackey and Aether Vial. Without Lackey and Vial consistently cheating Gobbos into play the deck actually needs to hardcast cards. This makes the deck more susceptible to Wasteland than just about any deck in the format because of our extremely high curve and reliance upon non-basics. Having the highest curve used to not matter because we could cheat everything into play, and that allowed us to have janky-ass manabases and rock Waste+Port+Cavern. Well, we can't cheat stuff into play consistently anymore, so the manabase and high curve are liabilities. Also, when our opponents' Wastelands become better our Wastelands become much, much worse.

    The thread has gotten stale because there just aren't enough Goblin cards to make things interesting. You can go ahead and playtest all the 4-drops you want; they still won't win you the game without the basic Lackey/Vial engine working. We need better 1 and 2-drops that allow us to win without Lackey/Vial, but there are no 1-or-2-drops being overlooked (except Goblin Skycutter). WotC is clearly not interested in printing interesting Goblins that cost less than 2R.

    I could go on, and I probably will later, but I'd better get back to work now.
    Thank you for the thorough explanation, the inconsistencies were a thought of mine as well. What about all basics plus the caverns or even all basics? Has anyone tried negating all non-basics from their lists.

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