What do you guys think of Zo-Zu the Punisher against Nic Fit or against any multicolored deck that naturally uses a lot of fetch lands like Bug and Esper Deathblade? Losing 5 life point in total for fetching one land sure hurts. It might be too slow though...
Last edited by Wucherkater; 08-22-2014 at 05:02 PM.
After playing months with different BUG variations, I decided to give Goblins a shot again in our local Friday Night using the RB list that cooljets posted. It's a little different from the old stock list I was used to playing, but I did ok, going 2-2 beating Sneak and Show and MUD, and losing to Jund and Miracles. Jund was a case of bad draws and not hitting sideboard stuff in game 2, but Miracles was interesting. Game 1 was was running fine, but couldn't get that last few bits of damage in once he miracled an Entreat. Game 2 I had to mull to 4, but it was the perfect 4 (cavern, lackey, wasteland, ringleader) and I was able to win that game pretty easily. Game 3 was the same as 1 with the Angel tokens clogging the board for the last bit of damage. Due to this, is Legion Loyalist something that is viable out of the board at least as a Matron target? Does it have enough applications elsewhere to be useful?
Since ZZ is 3cmc he probably comes down too late. If he cost R instead if RR1 he would be way better, because we could play him T1 and Port T2 and actually get some benefit out of him. But he's just too slow for legacy. Cool ability on the card, but too expensive to justify it. That's the same old song and dance for the format.
@legion loyalist- possibly the very definition of a Win More card
Since ZZ is 3cmc he probably comes down too late. If he cost R instead if RR1 he would be way better, because we could play him T1 and Port T2 and actually get some benefit out of him. But he's just too slow for legacy. Cool ability on the card, but too expensive to justify it. That's the same old song and dance for the format.
@legion loyalist- possibly the very definition of a Win More card
I've been thinking a lot about Vial Goblins, why the deck was strong in the past, what really makes it shine, how we get countered now. Here's what jumped out.
1) Other than Piledriver, our real action is 3-5 cc card advantage. The rest is just disruption and cheatyfacing to support the 3-5 cc stuff in a Legacy format.
2) Our engine relies on either connecting with a 1/1 (bad against Squire.format) or most decks lacking artifact removal for Vial (not true vs Abrupt Decay and more prominent artifact hate to deal with blade decks)
3) We are soft to combo and Wizards keeps printing better and better creatures that cost 2U.
Yeah, Chrome Mox in WInstigator lists helps mitigate this by skipping us ahead to 3 sooner if the 1/1 plan fails. But what about a completely different approach? Why not just skip straight to 3?
Imperial Goblins
//Mana Sources: 22
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain
3 Chrome Mox
//Other: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Imperial Recruiter
//Goblins: 30
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Settler
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
//Sideboard:
4 Blood Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Boartusk Liege
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tarfire
2 Confusion in the Ranks
The idea is to use the Stompy base to accelerate into those powerful 3-5 drops instead of using Lackey+Vial. The bonus is getting the disruptive power of MD Chalice of the Void and SB Blood Moon to help shore up the combo matches. Blood Moon also helps immensely against the BGx decks that normally wreck Vial Goblins.
I would call this completely new brew "Goblin Stompy", except I don't want any confusion with "Moon Stompy" decks running [card]Moggcatcher[/card] engine, since this still runs the core cards of Goblins minus the 1-2 cc engines.
This is just a starting point, a very unpolished take 1. This list runs a lot of "bomb" singletons, although it also has much easier time finding them thanks to 8 Matrons main.
Any suggestions or interest in pursuing this direction? I'd do some testing on MTGO but I abhor the new software...
I see the Stompy-theme as a viable choice, but why Imperial Recruiter? He's strictly worse than Goblin Matron in this deck, and I don't even know why Goblins would need 8 Matron effects.
Maybe an hyper aggressive deck with Sol-Lands, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Chalice of the Void and WInstigator should fit fine in this Stompy list.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I am certainly not the one to restrict discussions in this thread - you all know that. But I believe the discussion should be about Goblin-decks with Aether Vial, since this is the Vial-Goblins thread. There is a seperate thread for stompy-goblins on this board (can't find it atm) where there is room for this discussion.
//EDIT:
I found one CLICK. But thit is not the one I was talking about. I am 50% sure that there is another one.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Sorry. The new thread you made is just called "Goblins" (I think the old one was called "Vial Goblins"), so wasn't sure if this would still fit in.
There's discussion of "Goblin Stompy" in the Dragon Stompy thread, but that is a very different deck. That deck runs the main Moon Stompy shell (Chalice, 8 Moons, often 3sphere) and full set of Sol Lands and SSG and doesn't run 30+ Goblins for Ringleader. Rather, it plays more like traditional Dragon Stompy but uses Moggcatcher to fetch out select singleton Goblin bombs as a supplement to the usual finishers (Koth, etc.). That deck's primary strategy is to play a turn 1 lock piece to shut out the opponent and then follow up with a turn 2-3 threat, one of which happens to be the card engine Moggcatcher.
On the other hand, this deck aims to play the usual powerful 3-5cc Goblin creatures that drive Vial Goblins (Matron, Piledriver, Ringleader, Siege-Gang, Krenko, Chieftain, Warchief) but to cheat them out with a different engine than Vial and Lackey, which have gotten easier and easier to disrupt over time. Instead, Sol Lands and Chrome Mox (and possibly SSG) are used as the acceleration engine. Aside from that, most of the creature base, interactions, card advantage and win strategy are the same (with the exception of maindeck Chalice @ 1, though WInstigator decks can board into that vs combo, and the loss of mana denial). It's mainly just a change in accelerants (and loss of mana denial).
I think the main weakness of Goblins lately is not that the engine is bad (Matron, Ringleader, Krenko, Kiki, etc. are all still strong effects). The problem is the ways we used to cheat them out have become worse. Goblin Lackey isn't the boogieman he was in 2006. Aether Vial is slower, easier to kill lately. WInstigator lists are one way to adjust. But I want to explore the possibility of an alternate engine.
Since my deck is no longer "Vial Goblins", I can just start a new thread.
I'm sorry, you are absolutely right! I'm pretty sure I named the thread "Vial Goblins 2.0" back then - guess some mod changed its name to "Goblins" without notice. Anyhow I didn't want to discredit your ideas. In fact I think mana-accelerants are a good approach to solve problems. Sol lands didn't work for me when I last tested them. I remember that a one-off Gaea's Cradle was fine though. So were Chrome Moxen.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
@FTW, here is my Goblin Stompy list if you are interested:
//Mana Sources: 22
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Chrome Mox
//Other: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simian Spirit Guide
//Goblins: 30
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Golbin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
I don't know how much you have tested your list already, but I think you will find that 22 lands is not enough, especially after getting rid of Aether Vials. You have two routes. You can bump your land count to 24 Lands. The other route is to use Simian Spirit Guides. Simian Spirit Guides and Chome Mox allows for turn 1 Winstigator or Chalice of the Void, and with Ancient Tomb, a turn 1 Chalice is much more likely now. If you are interested in tribal Chalice strategies, you should proxie the Solider Stompy deck too: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7875&iddeck=57353
Suppression Field wrecks house. Preeminent Captain is also scary as heck. I'd take away the Thorn of Amethyst in this particular for Loxodon Gatekeeper or Brimaz though. My current list actually has 3 Brimaz and 3 Captain of the Watch.
If you are interested in a Vial-less build, you may try Deathrite Shaman:
Lands (22)
10 Fetch Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Mountains
Creatures (30)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
Removal (8)
3 Tarfire
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding
The manabase is a risk, but it allows you to play your bombs a full turn earlier and gives you the option to play powerful sideboard cards like Abrupt Decay. Also, unlike Lackey or Aether Vial, Deathrite Shaman is not a bad top deck, and can usually deal 2 damage per turn unless you play against a deck like D&T. It is also an out vs. Moat along with SGC.
Hi all. Yesterday i finaly got my last cards for this build and went to small event. There was 16 people, 4 rounds. I ended 3-1.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Arid Mesa
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Pendelhaven
2 Volcanic Island
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
1 Dead // Gone
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Stingscourger
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Settler
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
First round: Reanimator 1-2
In first i kept slow hand. He got very fast griselbrand.
In second i got Instigator, 2 relicks, lands and some goblins. I killed hem very fast with winstigator, Liege, chieftain.
In third he got a very fast iona and i sided out all my vials.
Second round: deck with standstill, delver, shaman, stifl, snuff out, decay and counterspells. 2-0
In first i mulled to 4 and kept Vial, mountain, fetch, instigator. He mulld to six. He top decked poor. I traided instigator to decay, lackey for delver and then i hit some bosses and won.
In second there was 1 delver, 2-3 shamans, 1 plague, some decays and i got Kiki-ringleader combo + liege + krenco.
Third round: Burn 2-1
In first it was pretty fast for him.
In second i traided some lackeys for burn. Then dealt some dmg with chieftain and killed his 1 land with settler.
In therd game he mulled to 6 i traided instigator fot fireblast, then killed his single land with settler.
Fourth round: Affiniti with main cataclism 2-0
In first game i hit tin to his ravager and then combo out with instigator.
In second i put kiki and tuktuk on turn three with instigator. so no chanses.
Hi everyone! Caleb Durward just posted an article where he talks about legacy goblins among other things. What do you think about the more rabblemaster-centered build, or just rabblemaster in general?
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ering-rabbles/
R/B Goblins
Follow me on Twitter @SandroRajalin
My articles:
Legit MTG
Brainstorm Brewery
Hipsters of the Coast (Current)
He is the perfect 3 drop for the stompy shell , since he costs 2R and is one of the best red beaters ever printed at that mana cost (if not the best).
I don't think though rabblemaster can improve vial goblins at all. He can only take the slots of chieftain / warchief , and is probably worse than both since haste is very important.
The fact that he doesn't have haste himself is a huge detriment to playing him. He forces you to attack with everything, so you cannot play him until you're in a favorable position to attack with everything. But he doesn't have haste..... Anyone else see an obvious problem here?
Also, playing sac outlets sucks. Rabblemaster is so bad it forces you to play other bad cards in order to make him decent. Seems bad.
Hi all. I played in another tournament recently, it was a 5 round Win-A-Mox side event at my local WMCQ in Oakland, CA. Sadly, no one actually went 5-0 to win the mox, but I did win 12 packs for going 4-1. I don't have time to write up a full report, but I played and beat Elves twice, American Delver twice, and took my one loss to Lands.dec. It was my first time playing against the lands deck, and it seem like a pretty rough time. The land destruction doesn't do much when they have Loam, and getting Punishing Fire'd every turn was miserable. Luckily, it doesn't seem like the deck has much game against combo and I don't expect to see it that often. Our delver/stoneforge matchup is just great, I always feel like I have inevitability. My elves games weren't even that bad either, as I had access to Settler in game 1 to keep Cradle off the table and Sharpshooter to prevent his board from getting out of control. I'm feeling super duper solid on this list and I can't recommend it enough. I'm tellin' you guys, quit complaining about how the deck is so bad right now and give this baby a try.
//MANA [22]:
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Chrome Mox
//CORE [32]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Tarfire
//TOOLBOX [6]:
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Settler
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
//SIDEBOARD [15]:
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
After a long break from tournament magic I finally managed to attend a tourney again. Someone told me there would be a lot of miracles and D&T so I dismissed BURG-Delver and decided to bring the green men. My deck was heavily inspired by some ideas from this forum. I would like to thank Gobolord and the other active members for the good work here.
Da List:
Lands (22):
2 Pendelhaven
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Taiga
1 Volcaniv Island
4 Mountain
7 Fetch
2 Chrome Mox
Core (32):
(Vial, Lackey,Tarfire, Piledriver, Winstigator, Matron, Chieftain,Ringleader)
Flex (6):
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
Sideboard (15):
3 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
3 Swan Song
3 Relic
2 Needel
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Pyrokinesis
We were 32 players - 6 rounds! I finished 6:0 taking the first place. I only took some quick notes so I can not deliver a detailed report but here is what I can remember:
Round 1
? with D&T with green for Knight
Dice: him
First game goes long as we trade of lot. At some point I bounce his Knight with a Sting (from a Vial@2) and connect with Winstigator. He cannot keep up with the Matron into Krenkoans scoops it up.
Second game I lead with Vial, he has a revoker to shut it down. I break the revorker with a tin street and start to build up some pressure. Unfortunately I drew a lot of my small dudes while he sticks a Kor Firewalker. This dude gains him a lot of life and blocked like a champ... Some turns later he gets SFM and its game over.
Third game was real fun! T1 Land ,Mox, Winstigator. He had no sword so Winstigator connects on T2 and brings Matron into Ringleader (who showed Krenko an Tarfire). He conceded shortly after...
/ 2:1 in games, 1:0
Round 2
? with D&T
Dice:him
I don’t remember a lot here but at some point I played Pyrokinesis on a Serra Avenger and a Flickerwisp which he earlier used to reset my Vial. After a lot back and forth he has only a Aven Mindcensor in play – I have one card left in hand and a Winstigatror in play. He decides NOT to block and is not amused to see that the remaining card was a Ringleader...
Second game I keep a greedy hand with only one land (Taiga) , Lackey, Tarfire, Ringleader and some other stuff. He mulls to 6 has no T1 play but his T2 Thalia keeps my Lackey at bay while I did not drew the needed land for the Tarfire in my hand... Should have mulled here I guess....
The third game I again a T1 Winstigator again but this time he has the sword. T2 Matron into Ringleader isn’t bad either and T3 Ringleader into Krenko and Chieftain means game...
/ 2:1 in games, 2:0
Round 3
Phil with Miracles
Dice: me
Lackey meets FOW, Matron and Ringleader gets FOWed. No joke - he had all 4 Forces and one sword during the first 6 Turns! Jace joins the party and it goes downhill from here...
To be honest I was a bit pissed after losing the first game of our best MU in such an awkward way. I tried to focus again and it worked out as I take the next two games in typical Goblin VS Miracels manner. Not much to say here except that I kept some Tarfire in and it played out as I could use them to burn his Clique when he had his Karakas tapped.
/2:1 in games, 3:0
Round 4
Christof with Burn
Dice: him
He crushed me game one with double Goblin Guide and some Bolts. Game 2&3 I stabilize at about 10 life while Lackey and Winstigator force him to use some spells on my board instead of throwing them at my head. I have often experienced it – once the burn player starts burning dudes you should be in good shape.
/ 2:1 in games, 4:0
Round 5
Tobi with Goblins
Dice: him
He mulls to 5 and lead with Lackey. I have the Tarfire and 2 Vials on my 2nd turn. He has his own Vial shortly after but I have the Hooligan for it. I don’t remember the details but the game ended in my favour mostly because of the maindeck Pyrokinesis and the multiple Vials on my side.
Second game was even more of a battle as the game went back and forth for many turns. This time he had the Pyrokinesis and I remember that Pendelhaven showed up on my side and it was pretty good. Multiple Chieftains deliver me the win...
Both games were grindy and intense. While Tobi was on a more classic build with MWM, Gempalms and Warchiefs (and the whole mana-denial, off course) my list is more on agro route. It was my first time playing against Tobi in a tournament and while he is definitively the better player I am happy that I had the needed luck on my side. (In the end Tobi finished 2nd place - a good day for the green men)
Round 6
David with BURG
Dice: me
Cavern Lackey go – the first game takes only about three minutes...
Second game I had to mull and kept a slow hand with lands and 3drops. He leads with delver and starts bashing in. I burn his 2nd Delver while he adds a TNN to the board. With my lifetotal chipping away quickly I managed to build up a decent board with Chieftain, Krenko and some Tokens. Things looked ok – until he played a Fire Convent for 12 life (dropping to 4 life) to clear my board. TNN finishes me of.
Funny fact: in my last turn I had 4 lands in play, matron, tarfire and Mox in hand. Here a Mointain would have been better than the Mox! While the two Moxes were ok all day long (Gobbolord suggested the 2/2 Split with Kinesis earlier) it definitively cost me the game here.
Third game is again quite close. Double Delver beat me down while I race with some dudes. I play Matron on Tarfire to kill a Delver. (By the way: Tarfires were great all day ;-) !!) I am hellbend and draw Pyrokinesis for my turn then go to 6 from his remaining Delver. He adds a DRS to the table so I had two turns to find a pitch card... which I did next turn... Next draw was a Matron - you can imagine how the game ended...
/ 2:1 in games, 6:0
Thoughts:
I did not miss Wasteland!
I am not sure about thee Sideboard. The blue cards were hardly used today. However when you need them you need them... Tobi suggested a 2nd Volcanic instead of the 2nd Taiga which seems reasonable to me. What are your general opinions on the Blue-splash?
Pendelhaven and Pyrokinesis werde good all day – I will keep them in !
Best regards,
Bob
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